What Did Ellen White Say About The Trinity

[Religiot]

See, now, again you've mistaken me for someone who doesn't think things through. How do we know he was in the same frame of mind when he mocked them as he was when he killed them?

And, again, I'm not in the slightest bit interested in making myself look good. But are you sure you don't care? Because you've had several chances to ignore me.

Name-calling now, is it? Nice.

Wow... You are the only SDA, thus far, to behave this way: I've had many fruitful conversations with SDA's, even when we disagree...

I called you a joker because you are making jokes--bad, pathetic jokes, but jokes nonetheless.

And no, I really don't care what your problem is, but that doesn't mean I'm going to ignore you when you address me: I will simply respond with what I think is right, so that others watching can judge for themselves.

Light doesn't run from darkness, it is always the darkness that tries to suppress the light, but the light, however, merely exposes what is lurking in the dark.

So leave me be, unless you want to continue to expose yourself to others by this conversation with me.

 

[Jesse Johnson]

What is the name of the publication that contains Mrs. White's prediction on 9/11?

Testimonies for the Church, vol. 9, page 12
The mobile version looks much cleaner than the desktop site.

 

[Religiot]

Testimonies for the Church, vol. 9, page 12
The mobile version looks much cleaner than the desktop site.

I must say that this is quite a surprise, and I'm grateful for it: thank you.

 

[Religiot]

Testimonies for the Church, vol. 9, page 12
The mobile version looks much cleaner than the desktop site.

Again, thank you, I truly appreciate being able to verify the source.

Do you know of any other predictions that she made?

 

[Jesse Johnson]

Again, thank you, I truly appreciate being able to verify the source.

Do you know of any other predictions that she made?

You're very welcome indeed.

One of the best places to do a topical search (and in particular, the kind I think you might be interested in) is here:

Ellen G. White: The Ellen White information website

And in the case of history foretold, here:

Ellen G. White: Links to Her Various Predictions (Overview)

And here:

Ellen G. White: Future Prophecies (Overview)
.

 

[Religiot]

You're very welcome indeed.

One of the best places to do a topical search (and in particular, the kind I think you might be interested in) is here:

Ellen G. White: The Ellen White information website

And in the case of history foretold, here:

Ellen G. White: Links to Her Various Predictions (Overview)

And here:

Ellen G. White: Future Prophecies (Overview)
.

Thank you very much!

 

[BobRyan]

I must say that this is quite a surprise, and I'm grateful for it: thank you.

That chapter begins in page 11 .... so then 9T 11 and is titled "the last crisis".

Chapter 1—The Last Crisis

 

[Jesse Johnson]

That chapter begins in page 11 .... so then 9T 11 and is titled "the last crisis".

Chapter 1—The Last Crisis

The link displays the whole chapter.

Testimonies for the Church, vol. 9, page 12

 

[Religiot]

That chapter begins in page 11 .... so then 9T 11 and is titled "the last crisis".

Chapter 1—The Last Crisis

No worries: the links are complete. Thank you.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

1. Ellen White

Something is amiss, James White was a Christian Connextion Minister and as such denied the deity of Christ. For anyone to be sure your short quotes are true, you need to quote the full document with links to those primary sources to be useful.

James Springer White - Wikipedia


"
On the other hand, there are certain indications which point in the direction of the view that James White was not a Trinitarian. In 1877 he wrote a tract entitled Christ in the Old Testament in which the following statement appears:

The work of emancipating, instructing and leading the Hebrews was given to the One who is called an angel. Ex. 13:21; 14:19, 24; 23:20-23; 32:34; Num. 20:16; Isa. 63:9. And this angel Paul calls "that spiritual Rock that followed them," and he affirms, "That Rock was Christ." 1 Cor. 10:4.

The eternal Father is never called an angel in the Scriptures, while what angels have done is frequently ascribed to the Lord, as they are his messengers and agents to accomplish his work.21

We have here a suggested distinction between "the eternal Father" and Christ. Christ is called an angel in Scripture, the Father is not. Christ is referred to as "the Lord" to distinguish Him from "the eternal Father." It would be possible to read between the lines and assume that James white did not regard Christ, the Lord, as eternal in the same sense as the Father; that, in fact, Christ was to some extent inferior in rank to the Father, because he is called an angel and the Father is not. But, in the absence of corroborating evidence, this would not be a fair conclusion.

There is in the James White Memorial Library at Andrews University a thesis which states that A. T. Robinson declared in an interview that James White was not a Trinitatian.22 Robinson had been acquainted with the Whites. This type of evidence based on the testimony of an old man is hardly to be regarded as entirely satisfactory. But it is nonetheless an additional finger pointing in the same direction as other fragmentary pieces of evidence. At all events, White did not allow his view, whatever it was, to come to the fore, at a time when a major Trinitarian controversy might have split the infant Adventist Church."
E. GANE M.A. Thesis. Beliefs of Earliest Pioneers

Trinity

 

[BobRyan]

I posted this in response to ECR post

Ellen White on the Trinity Doctrine
Did Ellen White believe in the trinity?

1. Ellen White was raised as a united Methodist - by definition - Trinitarian
2. The first list of SDA doctrinal statements comes from 1872 and did not say anything negative about the trinity - also made no statement that Trinitarians do not make to this very day.
3. The only doctrinal statements that the SDA denomination has ever published in our fundamental-beliefs statements - specifically addressing the Trinity, are of the form One God in THREE persons - the Triune Godhead.
4. James what made a statement in 1855 showing "The sort" of trinity position he opposed...
In 1855 J. James White published an article in the Review and Herald entitled “Preach the Word.” In dealing with Paul’s statement in 2 Timothy 4:4 “they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables” he wrote, “Here we might mention the Trinity, which does away the personality of God and His Son Jesus Christ, ....”
(-- so not even targetting a "one God" Deut 6:4 in "Three Persons" Matt 28:19 form of "Trinity")

5. 1876 James White made this statement
“Seventh-day Adventists hold the divinity of Christ so nearly with the Trinitarians, that we apprehend no trial here.”38

And a year later he declared his belief in the equality of the Son with the Father and condemned any view as erroneous that “makes Christ inferior to the Father.”38 (2)

37 (The Day Star, Jan 21, 1846)

38 (Review And Herald, Oct 12, 1876)



"The Holy Ghost, we [SDA pioneers] must ever remember, is more than a Divine Influence. He is a Divine Person. He is the CO-EQUAL of the Father and the Son."
---The Present Truth (England), January 7, 1897, Vol. 13, No.1, pg. 8

"The crowning glory of Christ´s [Jesus'] attributes is His holiness. The angels bow before *Him [Jesus] in adoration, exclaiming, "Holy, holy, holy, Lord *GOD ALMIGHTY." Revelation 4:8. He is declared to be glorious in His holiness. Study the character of God. By beholding Christ, by seeking Him in faith and prayer, you may become like Him.“ ---E.G. White, CT 402.2

“... in the course of the lessons as opportunity occurs you will impress upon the children the relation in which they stand to God the Father as their Creator; to GOD THE SON as their Redeemer; and to God the Holy Ghost as their Sanctifier."
---E.J. Waggoner, The Present Truth (pioneering SDA periodical), Feb. 15, 1894, pg. 101

“God the Father speaks to GOD THE SON , and says, “Thy throne, Oh God,”. And further the Father says to the Son, “Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands.” And when he brought him into the world, he said, “Let all the angels of God worship him.” This is he who died for us…the most excellent Saviour of sinners, “Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.” Isaiah 9:6." --- Signs of the Times May 28, 1885, pg. 326


"Paganism, popery [the Papacy], and infidelity fail entirely to either rightly know or truly represent the ever-living God. It is left for pure Protestantism to proclaim to the world the true God consisting of THREE PERSONS but of one spirit and aim"
---The Signs of the Times, Vol. 26, No. 24, June 12, 1911; p. 371.372

“There are THREE BEINGS in the Godhead: God, the Father; Jesus Christ, the Word; and the Holy Spirit. "These three are one." …Canst thou by searching find out God?" ---Review and Herald, Vol. 87; December 15, 1910; No. 50; p. 8

"God is worshipped because He is Creator; and God means the Godhead, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; for all are mentioned as having part in creation ."
---The Present Truth (SDA periodical), Vol. 29, No. 48. Nov. 27, 1913, p. 757

"We art children of a Father with "all comfort" in his holding; Jesus is our "Elder Brother" and his blood for us he gave; While the Holy Ghost, "the Comforter," each heart by truth is molding. So the great, TRIUNE JEHOVAH is omnipotent to save; he Is building mansions" for us... as children, we obey him. And the "image" and the 'likeness" lost, by grace shall be restored"
----Signs of the Times, January 6, 1904, Vol. 30 (No. 1), pg. 1

"…when Jesus declared Himself to the Jews to be I AM, He revealed Himself as THE Jehovah of the Old Testament, the God of Abraham manifested in human flesh.... the fact that the Jesus of the New Testament is THE Jehovah of the Old Testament must not be understood as eliminating the Father, or as a denial of the Godhead---Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Since the finite cannot comprehend the infinite, it were vain to attempt an analysis of the Godhead... Believe it we must, but explain it, or even fully comprehend it, we cannot; and until we can, we should tread reverently as we approach the subject of the being and nature of the TRIUNE God. This identification of Jesus of Nazareth with Jehovah of the Old Testament opens up a fertile field of study and encouragement....When we are tempted to doubt the power of Jesus to save us from sin and from sinning, we may call to mind that it was as Jehovah that He delivered His people from the bondage of Egypt and brought them into the Promised Land.”
---W.W. Prescott (SDA pioneer), The Saviour of the World, pg. 17

Something is amiss, James White was a Christian Connextion Minister and as such denied the deity of Christ.

Indeed he did deny the Trinity as a Christian Connection Minister - but he was not Ellen White. His objections had more to do with the Catholic version of the Trinity - but even so he was not Trinitarian in the 1850's. No doubt.

but you are right "something is amiss" in the way people have been reporting the entire topic about Adventists.


4. James White (August 4, 1821 – August 6, 1881) made a statement in 1855 showing "The sort" of trinity position he opposed...

In 1846 James White referred to “the old unscriptural trinitarian creed, viz, that Jesus is the eternal God.” (The Day-Star, January 21, 1846)



In 1855 J. James White published an article in the Review and Herald entitled “Preach the Word.” In dealing with Paul’s statement in 2 Timothy 4:4 “they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables” he wrote, “Here we might mention the Trinity, which does away the personality of God and His Son Jesus Christ, ....”
(-- so not even targetting a "one God" Deut 6:4 in "Three Persons" Matt 28:19 form of "Trinity")

Five years before James White died - he had come to this point --
1876 James White made this statement
“Seventh-day Adventists hold the divinity of Christ so nearly with the Trinitarians, that we apprehend no trial here.”38 -- (Review and Herald, October 12, 1876)



A year later from that 1876 statement --he declared his belief in the equality of the Son with the Father and condemned any view as erroneous that “makes Christ inferior to the Father.” (Review and Herald, November 29, 1877)

 

[BobRyan]

On the other hand, there are certain indications which point in the direction of the view that James White was not a Trinitarian. In 1877 he wrote a tract entitled Christ in the Old Testament in which the following statement appears:

The work of emancipating, instructing and leading the Hebrews was given to the One who is called an angel. Ex. 13:21; 14:19, 24; 23:20-23; 32:34; Num. 20:16; Isa. 63:9. And this angel Paul calls "that spiritual Rock that followed them," and he affirms, "That Rock was Christ." 1 Cor. 10:4.

The eternal Father is never called an angel in the Scriptures,

The "Angel of the Lord" is applied to God in scripture... it is to that Angel that James White refers.


==================================================
Just as most Bible scholars assert that the "Angel of the Lord" is the pre-incarnate Christ.
=====================================Bob McCabe -- not BobRyan
Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary
by Bob McCabe
http://dbts.edu/blog/author/rmccabe/

"The issue for us concerns whether this term can refer to the infinite supernatural Being, God. In order to prove that this term can refer to God, we will need to examine when it is used in connection with the phrase “of the LORD.” While this expression is used thirty-nine times in the Old Testament, we will examine two of these.

========

note this text from Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary - author Bob McCabe

Example 1

Ex 3:1-2 Now Moses was pasturing the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian; and he led the flock to the west side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 The angel of the Lord appeared to him in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush; and he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was not consumed.

"The first passage is found in Exodus 3:1–14. While tending the flock of his father-in-law at Horeb, Moses saw that a burning bush was not being consumed by the fire. As he approached the bush, v. 2 clearly states that the angel of the LORD appeared to him in the flames of the bush. It is stated in v. 4 that the LORD spoke to him from within the bush. In v. 6 the Being in the bush further identifies that He was the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. As the conversation continues between these two, the Being in the bush announces His name, “I AM WHO I AM” (v. 14). Thus, this passage indicates that the angel of the LORD mentioned in v. 2 is clearly identified by Himself and accepted by Moses as the infinite God.

Example 2

Zechariah 3:1–10... the antecedent of “he” is the interpreting angel (he is referred to in 1:9, 14, 19; 2:3; 4:1, 3, 5; etc.; in light of 1:9 the interpreting angel was apparently present to explain some of the details of these visions to Zechariah), the antecedent of “me” is Zechariah, the angel of the LORD, and Satan. In this verse Joshua is described as standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan is pictured as standing at the right hand of the angel of the LORD to resist him. With this introduction to the vision we should note that the angel of the LORD is the focal point around which the following context revolves.

"The first half of v. 2 reads like this: “The LORD said to Satan, ‘The LORD rebuke you, Satan!’” In light of the participants mentioned in v. 1, we could read this verse in this fashion: “And the LORD, that is the angel of the LORD, said unto Satan, ‘The LORD rebuke you, Satan.’” Therefore, v. 2 identifies the angel of the LORD as the LORD and indicates that there is a distinction between the angel of the LORD and the LORD. This identification is further substantiated in v. 4. If we follow the context of vv. 2–4 carefully, we should notice that it is the angel of the LORD who forgives sin in v. 4. Since God is the only one who forgives sin, it is readily apparent that the angel of the LORD is God. Consequently, this passage provides solid support for both the deity of the angel of the LORD and his distinctiveness from the LORD.

Who is both deity and yet a distinct person from the LORD? Since no one has ever seen God the Father (John 1:18; 1 Tim 6:16) and since the Holy Spirit never takes on bodily form, this suggests that the supernatural Being to which this expression refers is the second member of the Trinity (also compare Exod 3:14 with John 8:58). Therefore, the angel of the LORD was a temporary manifestation of the LORD Jesus Christ in a preincarnate form
"
=========================end quote


As for the scholarship agreeing with Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary - author Bob McCabe

Some examples:

Friday at 10:53 PM #19

...


Adam Clarke Commentary
Exodus 3 Verse 2

The angel of the Lord - Not a created angel certainly; for he is called יהוה Jehovah, Exodus 3:4, etc., and has the most expressive attributes of the Godhead applied to him, Exodus 3:14, etc. Yet he is an angel, מלאך malach, a messenger, in whom was the name of God, Exodus 23:21; and in whom dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, Colossians 2:9; and who, in all these primitive times, was the Messenger of the covenant, Malachi 3:1. And who was this but Jesus, the Leader, Redeemer, and Savior of mankind? See Clarke's note on Genesis 16:7.

=================

James Burton Coffman
Ex 3 Verse 2-3

"And the angel of Jehovah appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. And Moses said, I will turn aside now, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt."

"The angel of Jehovah ..." As the context proves, "The Angel of Jehovah is not a created angel but Jehovah himself in his act of self-revelation."[10] This is merely another name for God, of which there are many in the Bible. Although this verse does not indicate it, there is reason to believe that the Angel of Jehovah should be identified with our Lord Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Godhead; he is also called the Angel of the Covenant.[11]


=================================
Jamieson Fausset Brown
Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible

Verse 2-3

the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire — It is common in Scripture to represent the elements and operations of nature, as winds, fires, earthquakes, pestilence, everything enlisted in executing the divine will, as the “angels” or messengers of God. But in such cases God Himself is considered as really, though invisibly, present. Here the preternatural fire may be primarily meant by the expression “angel of the Lord”; but it is clear that under this symbol, the Divine Being was present, whose name is given (Exodus 3:4, Exodus 3:6), and elsewhere called the angel of the covenant, Jehovah-Jesus.


===================================
I think we can all agree that none of those Bible scholars were following Ellen White to make their statements or take their positions on this subject. So we cannot blame her for positions they take.

Nor can we "blame me" for positions those scholars take.
Albert Barnes Commentary

=========================================

So then two opinions --

here is one -


Albert Barnes Commentary

Exodus 3
Ex 3:1-2 Now Moses was pasturing the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian; and he led the flock to the west side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 The angel of the Lord appeared to him in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush; and he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was not consumed.

vs 2
What Moses saw was the flame of fire in the bush; what he recognized therein was an intimation of the presence of God, who maketh a flame of fire His angel. Compare Psalm 104:4. The words which Moses heard were those of God Himself, as all ancient and most modern divines have held, manifested in the Person of the Son


=========== and here is another one


I ran out of time quoting so many of them that do not share your view after I got to

Albert Barnes
James Burton Coffman
Adam Clarke Commentary
Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary Bob McCabe

R.C.Sproul
The Angel of the LORD
Verse 7 tells us “the angel of the Lord” found Hagar at the spring. This angel is no mere messenger of God, even though royal messengers in those days were treated with the same respect as the sender. When the angel of the Lord appears elsewhere in Scripture, people fall down in worship (see Judg. 6:22–24). After seeing the angel, Hagar addresses him as God (Gen. 16:13). This angel appeared mainly during the period recounted in Genesis and Judges, and, while the New Testament does not explicitly identify the angel with the Son of God, many in church history have identified this messenger as the pre-incarnate Christ.

"The point" is that these folks are not saying this "because Ellen White told them to say it" -- as I am sure we all agree.

And I think Albert Barnes' statement above is correct even others are posting scenarios that include one where the Angel of the Lord is in fact God - speaking to Moses.


======================================

Even so - the SDA denomination has no doctrinal statements on the topic of who Michael is - we just have the doctrinal statements in our "28 Fundamental Beliefs" regarding the Trinity -- the Godhead and Christ as the second person of the Godhead.

 

[Gary K]

The "Angel of the Lord" is applied to God in scripture... it is to that Angel that James White refers.

Bob, stop confusing people with facts. It's just not fair. They get so much enjoyment out of misrepresenting SDA beliefs.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, stop confusing people with facts. It's just not fair. They get so much enjoyment out of misrepresenting SDA beliefs.

sorry about that I am peculiar that way...

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I must say that this is quite a surprise, and I'm grateful for it: thank you.

I liked the old version of the website. I do not care for the new edition.
But, it is beta. Email in suggestions to improve the site.

 

[Tim Ray]

Getting back to the main subject of this thread. I found it educational to learn from earlier post about the SDA fathers evolving understanding of the trinity. However, I believe that even greater understanding has been revealed and I want to share it with all who will consider it. I think you will find it amazingly insightful!

Three Roles of the Godhead Decided
Untold Story of Jesus - Three Roles of the Godhead Decided - Chapter 3

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