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What denomination is the closest to early Christians? Is messianic Judaism the only way?

pat34lee

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Gadar, nothing in the NT requires us to keep the Mosaic Law. Christ commands us to obey *His* commandments, but not to obey all of the Law of Moses. If we seek to obey dietary laws, we must obey the whole thing.

The Law of Moses is not simply what we now call the Ten Commandments. It's everything. Literally everything. Parts of the Law were never meant to vanish. It's all or nothing, Sir, if we do things right. Which is why it makes no sense to rest on the Sabbath and avoid treyf foods yet have no system in place for daily sacrifices to be offered on your behalf. This is why imho Messiah fulfils it all. We don't have to keep Kosher, but are asked to avoid divorce and remarriage, hatred, idolatry, and to love our enemies, headcover (for Sisters), and let no unclean communication proceed out of our mouths. It's a new Torah. Torah, but Messianic, not Mosaic.

Who does John 1 say that Yeshua is? The word. He is the living
embodiment of the Torah. He also wrote the Torah with his finger.
I know you've heard a certain verse:

"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle
shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."


I still see heaven and earth, and all [prophecy] has not been fulfilled. So, if
he didn't authorize any change in the law, who did?

And, about the end times; why did he say to pray that our flight not be in
winter or on the Sabbath?
 
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pat34lee

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My point is, my Dad was Jewish. That could arguably make me a Messianic Jew. Yet I find the Gentiles dedicated to Torah get more worried about Sabbath, foods, cloth, and festivals than most ethnic Jews who believe in Christ. That's kind of weird. It's like, you may be half Mizrachi and a quarter Buchari and a quarter Ashkenazi, and your name might be Shoshana Lev, but if you like pepperoni on your pizza and adore Jesus as the Jewish Messiah, there's something wrong with you. Because the Goyim who don't go to work on Saturday are more Jewish than you, and must love and "get" Yeshua more. It's an odd feeling.

Do you know any really henpecked husbands? The kind that
rush home to be with their wife, and are constantly doing
things for her? Do you think they love their wife more than
husbands who don't do that kind of stuff? Maybe or maybe
not, but they demonstrate that love where everyone sees it;
especially their wife.

See where this is going?
 
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ripple the car

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It comes down to how much you hate sin (transgression of the Law - 1 John 3:4) and how much you love Yahweh (demonstrated by keeping His commandments - 1 John 5:3). The more you hate sin and love Yahweh, the more you will be diligent to guard the commandments so they are not broken.

Sir, what I also find odd is that folks on here have also debated the allowance of female Rabbis and argued for divorce and remarriage as being Kosher in Messiah, yet commend themselves and others for not driving a car on Saturday. That's just a general example, not a quote.

But it's weird. The Goyim get really into Moses, the ethnic Jews value and reverence the Law but may or may not keep the mitzvot, and yet if you have Jewish ancestry yet don't keep niddah or attend a mikvah, you get razzed on a forum called "Messianic Judaism".

For ethnic Jews / part-Jews, it's weird. And gives non-Messianic Jews room to say things like "there are no actual Messianic Jews, it's just a bunch of Gentile Christians butchering Hebrew. Ignore them!" And they have something of a point. Meanwhile, ethnic Jews who acknowledge and honor Jesus of Nazareth as the Jewish Messiah get sued, harassed, intimidated, and railed against by Haredim in Israel. But God forbid they don't fast on Yom Kippur! Gevalt! How dare they use the term Messianic Jew and not use teffilim!

That is how I feel on here. I do love Christ. I love my Jewish Messiah. I loved my Sephardi / Ashkenazi Dad and my Irish Mom, and love the NT and love Paul, and read Galatians as meaning that observance of the Law of Moses is not going to help Gentiles get spiritually closer to Christ, period. I love Hebrew and Aramaic, and can, like many Gentiles on here, read them. I am thankful for everything about my past and present, love bacon, and veil full time. Shalom.
 
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ripple the car

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Do you know any really henpecked husbands? The kind that
rush home to be with their wife, and are constantly doing
things for her? Do you think they love their wife more than
husbands who don't do that kind of stuff? Maybe or maybe
not, but they demonstrate that love where everyone sees it;
especially their wife.

See where this is going?

But I don't show my love for Christ by doing all kinds of things that have been fulfilled in Him. I show my love for Christ by obeying Him and His Apostles best as able, even when it hurts, costs friendships and honor, or causes me to loose in this world. That is how I show my love for Christ. Not by trying to go above and beyond on things He hasn't asked us to do, or continue on things that are optional. But to leave a husband and stay celibate? For His sake? That is how I could describe love.
 
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1John2:4

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Gadar, nothing in the NT requires us to keep the Mosaic Law. Christ commands us to obey *His* commandments, but not to obey all of the Law of Moses. If we seek to obey dietary laws, we must obey the whole thing.
I am confused by this statement, this is like saying if I honor my father and mother I have to keep the whole law? What is wrong with the law anyway, is it a bad thing to keep God's instructions? I thought His Word is truth? Did Yeshua command people to go out and tell others to not keep the Fathers instructions or to make deciples? I'm sorry if my reply seems harsh I am not trying to be ugly to anyone I just don't understand where this stems from.
 
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CherubRam

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I am confused by this statement, this is like saying if I honor my father and mother I have to keep the whole law? What is wrong with the law anyway, is it a bad thing to keep God's instructions? I thought His Word is truth? Did Yeshua command people to go out and tell others to not keep the Fathers instructions or to make deciples? I'm sorry if my reply seems harsh I am not trying to be ugly to anyone I just don't understand where this stems from.
The Christian point of view differs from the Messianic view, on which commands are to be kept.
 
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1John2:4

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The Christian point of view differs from the Messianic view, on which commands are to be kept.
I guess I can see that by discussing with Christians they don't really care for the law (Torah). I am a Christian if that means I am a follower of Christ (Yeshua). I also claim to be Messianic which means the same thing as Christian, it means we follow the Messiah, right? I thought we are all one in Messiah. If we are all one family would we not have the same instructions? I have read and studied the Torah (I don't claim to be an expert or anything) it seems like good stuff "Perfect" why would we need two sets of rules if the first set is perfect?
Thanks for your reply :)
 
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pat34lee

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But I don't show my love for Christ by doing all kinds of things that have been fulfilled in Him. I show my love for Christ by obeying Him and His Apostles best as able, even when it hurts, costs friendships and honor, or causes me to loose in this world. That is how I show my love for Christ. Not by trying to go above and beyond on things He hasn't asked us to do, or continue on things that are optional. But to leave a husband and stay celibate? For His sake? That is how I could describe love.

Problem. God didn't leave it up to you or me to decide. And fulfilling the law
did not wipe it out, any more than you can drive the speed limit once and then
ignore it. Jesus proved the law wasn't impossible to follow so we could learn by
his example, not throw it out.

The children of Israel thought they would honor God by building a golden
calf and dedicating it to him. He was so honored, he almost killed them all.

As for above and beyond, see 1 John 5:3. This specifies God's commands,
which are the Torah.

How would we lose this world if we act like them? They eat whatever, drink
whatever, and live as they please. What separates Christians from unbelievers
in daily public life; say at work, shopping, dealing with friends?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Problem. God didn't leave it up to you or me to decide.
:)

I don't remember ever thinking it was a problem . :)

Actually, YHWH provided great PEACE, JOY, and RIGHTEOUSNESS by CLEARLY stating what HE wants, instead of leaving it up to me or any man.
 
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gadar perets

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Sir, what I also find odd is that folks on here have also debated the allowance of female Rabbis and argued for divorce and remarriage as being Kosher in Messiah, yet commend themselves and others for not driving a car on Saturday. That's just a general example, not a quote.

But it's weird. The Goyim get really into Moses, the ethnic Jews value and reverence the Law but may or may not keep the mitzvot, and yet if you have Jewish ancestry yet don't keep niddah or attend a mikvah, you get razzed on a forum called "Messianic Judaism".

For ethnic Jews / part-Jews, it's weird. And gives non-Messianic Jews room to say things like "there are no actual Messianic Jews, it's just a bunch of Gentile Christians butchering Hebrew. Ignore them!" And they have something of a point. Meanwhile, ethnic Jews who acknowledge and honor Jesus of Nazareth as the Jewish Messiah get sued, harassed, intimidated, and railed against by Haredim in Israel. But God forbid they don't fast on Yom Kippur! Gevalt! How dare they use the term Messianic Jew and not use teffilim!
Which is why I don't base my doctrines or walk on the opinions of people. My focus is on Yahweh, Yeshua and Scripture. If someone chooses to exalt tradition or argues over gray areas, so be it. I try not to let such opinions affect me. However, if someone teaches falsely contrary to what I believe Scripture teaches, then I care and am obligated to get involved before the leaven leavens the whole lump. Teaching that the Law is abolished is leaven. Teaching we can eat unclean meat is leaven. Teaching to forsake the Sabbath and Feast Days is leaven.

That is how I feel on here. I do love Christ. I love my Jewish Messiah. I loved my Sephardi / Ashkenazi Dad and my Irish Mom, and love the NT and love Paul, and read Galatians as meaning that observance of the Law of Moses is not going to help Gentiles get spiritually closer to Christ, period. I love Hebrew and Aramaic, and can, like many Gentiles on here, read them. I am thankful for everything about my past and present, love bacon, and veil full time. Shalom.
Anything not in bold is commendable. Anything in bold is, to put it mildly, wrong thinking.

read Galatians as meaning that observance of the Law of Moses is not going to help Gentiles get spiritually closer to Christ - What draws us away from Messiah Yeshua? SIN. What is sin? The transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). Therefore, if breaking the law draws us away from Yeshua, the keeping of the law keeps us close to Yeshua.

love bacon - I used to love bacon as well until I read the following verses;

And the pig, because it parts the hoof and is cloven-footed but does not chew the cud, is unclean to you.
You shall not eat any of their flesh, and you shall not touch their carcasses; they are unclean to you. Leviticus 11:7-8

For I am YHWH who brought you up out of the land of Egypt to be your Elohim. You shall therefore be holy, for I am holy."
This is the law about beast and bird and every living creature that moves through the waters and every creature that swarms on the ground,
to make a distinction between the unclean and the clean and between the living creature that may be eaten and the living creature that may not be eaten. Leviticus 11:45-47​

but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior;
because it is written, "YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY." 1 Peter 1:15-16​

For behold, YHWH will come in fire, and his chariots like the whirlwind, to render his anger in fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire will YHWH enter into judgment, and by his sword, with all flesh; and those slain by YHWH shall be many. Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following one in the midst, eating pig's flesh and the abomination and mice, shall come to an end together, declares YHWH. Isaiah 66:15-17​

The Isaiah passage is referring to the Day of Yahweh yet in our future. How is it that His judgment will fall on people eating pig if He now allows His people to eat pig? If all meat is now clean and edible, what are the abominations these people are eating?
 
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gadar perets

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But I don't show my love for Christ by doing all kinds of things that have been fulfilled in Him. I show my love for Christ by obeying Him and His Apostles best as able, even when it hurts, costs friendships and honor, or causes me to loose in this world. That is how I show my love for Christ. Not by trying to go above and beyond on things He hasn't asked us to do, or continue on things that are optional.
He has asked Israel to obey the laws He gave through Moses. If you are in Messiah, you are an Israelite. Some laws, such as animal sacrifices, have been fulfilled. Others, such as Yom Teruah (the Day of Trumpets) have not been fulfilled. In order for anyone to cease keeping a particular law because they believe it to be fulfilled, they must prove its fulfillment from Scripture. Can you prove to me Yom Teruah has been fulfilled? If not, you MUST keep it or commit sin. And, if you cannot prove it is fulfilled, then that proves there are aspects in the law that are not fulfilled thereby preventing anyone from lumping all laws into one group and claiming they are all fulfilled. Can you prove the dietary laws are fulfilled? Can you prove the Sabbath has been fulfilled? The answer is no. Why? Because Scripture does not teach that. Only the false teachings of men who twist Paul's writings teach that.
 
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