• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Which Branch of Christianity is Closest to Original Early Church?

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,262
✟583,992.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
This isn't some kind of spoof, is it? The RCC has always said, as its explanation of Transubstantiation, that the substance changes but all of the accidents--the appearance, taste, feel, and scientific analyses continue to register as bread and wine. IOW, this article means nothing and it's not even a new find.

As for the Last Supper being a Passover meal, it wasn't. It may have started out that way, but it clearly was changed by Jesus; and as for the frequency, he said "as oft(en) as you do this...." so that may be taken to mean it ought to be somewhat often, although there is nothing exact in that.

Then that should mean the Sunday communion should only be once a year? :confused:






.
 
Upvote 0

RevelationTestament

Our God is a consuming fire.
Apr 26, 2013
3,727
46
United States
✟26,904.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
This same basic OP question was beat to death in the prior thread named “Which denomination today is closest to 1st Century Christianity”. (That thread was closed because the posting became uncivil.)

Though I am not tempted to believe that the oldest schismatics today are “the original” Christianity, still, I do believe the various “old” christianities tend to have many wonderful historic echo’s and doctrinal “debri” from early christian themes. I also think a study of the oldest schisms from rome, Africa, “Byzantium”, etc, are wonderful sources for historians trying to understand HOW certain doctrines were created, changed and how some were lost.



1) A Loss of prophetic leadership

I do not think that doctrinal accretions and evolutionary changes to the earliest doctrines was completely unavoidable. For example, once the last authentic apostle, John the revelator, died, then, all congregations such as Antioch, Rome, Jerusalem, Galatia, ephesus (and others not mentioned in NT texts...) were in the position of having no living source of apostolic authority nor prophetic revelatory guidance such authentic leaders [αποστολοι, etc.] had provided in the fledgling Jesus movement.



2) Early Doctrinal Immaturity of the Jesus Movement

Once the early congregations were "on their own" to make their own way as best they could without revelatory leadership it was inevitable that all would tend to stray in differing doctrinal directions.

Origen pointed out that the Christianity of his age had not yet decided whether God the Father had a physical body or not. Such a doctrinal “immaturity” was a difficult situation since many other types of doctrinal details were not spelled out for the christian movement which was coming under increasing pressure for answers to such questions from honest investigators and their antagonists alike.



3) Christianity attempting to better define itself

This lack of answers to simple doctrinal questions led to many early arguments and to a proliferation of multiple theories and further schisms were not unexpected. The ancient arguments over doctrines often reminds me of the very, very similar arguments we all see in modern religious and philosophical forums.



4) "Theologian derived religion" versus "Prophetic and Apostolic transmitted religion"

Various theologians attempted to fill the doctrinal gap left by the death of Apostles and Prophets. Though I believe many of these theologians were doing their very best to generate answers and theories and doctrines based on their best guesses and logic, I believe that “ theologian-derived” religion was inferior to “Prophet-transmitted” religion that had existed in the early Jesus movement.

Some theories of the Theologians became more popular than other theories and took on the mantle of “orthodoxy”. It was a situation of later ecclesiastics and theologians attempting to "make do" and “feel their way in the dark” to a certain extent. It was the best they could do, given their circumstances.

I believe many early theologians' motives involved an honest and good desire to protect and "further christian aims” as they generated ever more theories to fill the early gaps in knowledge though I am sure that ego and pride contaminated many of the early arguments over what was to be taught as “orthodoxy” .

The resulting doctrinal accretions and evolutions away from early simple doctrines are a study in the difference between the often well-intentioned theologians and the authentic inspirations of apostles.



5) The resulting doctrinal evolutions that resulted in multiple Christian Movements

Given a proliferation of various but specific systems of beliefs, it makes perfect sense historically, that doctrines would undergo evolutions.

a) Some simple, core doctrines would be kept perfectly intact
b) Some doctrines would evolve away from early versions (but still present in some form)
c) New Doctrines and practices would appear
d) Some early Judao-Christian doctrines would be abandoned and ultimately lost



6) The role of historical principles in answering the Opening Posts question

To answer the question regarding which modern Christian movement is most similar to the earliest Christian movement, one must FIRST define what the earliest Christian movement was like (else, there is no valid comparison.)

Legitimate and authentic history attempts to answer the questions regarding what early Judao-Christianity might have looked like; what its doctrines may have been; and what its authentic practices were and the meaning and purposes underlying those practices.

Modern religious historians are not simply left to arbitrary and modern interpretations of a few memorized biblical verses in a manner batted about in many of the arguments we see between christians arguing for their myriads of competing interpretations. There is a vast amount of early Judao-christian sacred and secular texts available to us. One can learn about what the early Judao-Christianities believed and what their beliefs and practices looked like by reading early Mishnas, early psalms/odes, early Christian Synagogal prayers, early christian diaries, the earliest discourses, early canonical texts that are no longer included in modern (or western) texts; epigrapha, etc, etc. This situation continues to improve.



7) A THEORETICAL "CUT AND PASTE" OF THE FIRST CHRISTIANITY IN THE TIME OF APOSTLES


a) Earliest Form of Organization – apostles, prophets, bishops, elders, etc.

A hypthetical denomination that would be closest to first century Christianity would be (in my opinion) a "cut and paste" of the earliest church into our era. That is, to “cut” the 12 apostles and early prophets (with their on-going revelations) out of the first century and “paste” that sort of organization into our modern era.


b) Earliest forms of Christian Doctrine, earliest definitions of faith, baptism, etc

“Cut” the earliest doctrines regarding Gods plan for the spirits of mankind out of the earliest Judao-christian texts and “paste” those doctrines into this hypothetical denomination. “Cut” the earliest doctrines regarding Faith in Jesus, repentance, baptism, gifts of the spirit among their leaders and among the laity and “paste” them into this hypthetical denomination.


c) Earliest forms of Practices

“Cut” the earliest descriptions of Baptism, of ordination, of healing and miracles out of the early descriptions of Judao-Christianity and “paste” them into this congregation.


d) Ability to use the earliest texts of Judao Christianity

I think that knee-v (in the prior post), makes an interesting point regarding the earliest Judao-christian writings)

I have come to believe that a hypothetical modern Christian movement that resembles the 1st century Christianity will be mostly oriented to, comfortable with and able to use the greatest amount of the earliest texts in demonstrating their teachings while those less like the earliest Judao-Christians will find the earliest texts disorienting and inconsistent with their doctrines (and will thus be dismissive of the earliest texts and perhaps call the early Christians and their writings, "heretical").

If one “cut and pasted” early Texts into the midst of this movement, they should be able to make better and more comfortable use of such texts than the denominations to which early Judao-Christin principles would be completely foreign.

I think that, to discuss "which denomination" is most like the earliest christian movement, one will have to break the question down into discrete and specific comparisons such how close its organization is to the earliest descriptions of Christian organization, how close its doctrines of salvation are to those of earliest christianity (e.g. faith, repentance, baptism, gifts of the spirit; fruits of conversion, etc.), how close its practices are to the earliest Judao-Christians (baptism, eucharistic meal, etc), and how seamless the earliest Judao-Christian texts reflect and could be used by this hypothetical denomination.


[FONT=&quot]Clearly

actzrr[/FONT]

When I began studying church history, I found an interesting tidbit I didn't know.
The early Christian leader Justin Martyr (AD 100–ca.165) wrote the following in chapter 67 of his First Apology:

And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit (2 Corinthians 9:7); and what is collected is deposited with the president (1 Corinthians 16:2), who succors the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter (Genesis 1:3-5), made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead (Mark 16:2, 16:9). For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.

Source: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf0....ii.lxvii.html

There are more than one thing that has been eye opening for me as an LDS convert. Besides our quorums each being organized with a president, and the entire church being led by a president. Each priesthood office is also begun by being "set apart." The English word "holy" is translated from the Hebrew which the Jews tend to translate as "Set apart." Woe! When I learned that I was blown away. The little things start adding up about the structure of the LDS church. Our local congregations are also organized into "wards."
Acts 12:10 When they were past the first and the second ward, they came unto the iron gate that leadeth unto the city; which opened to them of his own accord: and they went out, and passed on through one street; and forthwith the angel departed from him.

So it seems the early church was divided into geographical units. The churches of today let people go wherever they choose.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,262
✟583,992.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
When I began studying church history, I found an interesting tidbit I didn't know.
The early Christian leader Justin Martyr (AD 100–ca.165) wrote the following in chapter 67 of his First Apology:

And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit (2 Corinthians 9:7); and what is collected is deposited with the president (1 Corinthians 16:2), who succors the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter (Genesis 1:3-5), made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead (Mark 16:2, 16:9). For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.

Source: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf0....ii.lxvii.html

There are more than one thing that has been eye opening for me as an LDS convert. Besides our quorums each being organized with a president, and the entire church being led by a president.
I think you have made the lay leader of the congregation a "president," but when Justin Martyr speaks of a "president," he's referring to the presiding clergyman, either the bishop or his designee, exactly as the "Apostolic" churches continue to do until our own times.

Each priesthood office is also begun by being "set apart." The English word "holy" is translated from the Hebrew which the Jews tend to translate as "Set apart." Woe! When I learned that I was blown away. The little things start adding up about the structure of the LDS church. Our local congregations are also organized into "wards."
There really doesn't seem to be anything special in any of that. Ordination is often described as being set apart. Your congregations are organized into wards, while other denominations organize them into deaneries, dioceses, or classis, etc.

BTW, I notice that you quote Justin Martyr as referring to the congregation communing with bread and wine. How many of your congregations or wards use wine or grape juice?
 
Upvote 0

RevelationTestament

Our God is a consuming fire.
Apr 26, 2013
3,727
46
United States
✟26,904.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
I think you have made the lay leader of the congregation a "president," but when Justin Martyr speaks of a "president," he's referring to the presiding clergyman, either the bishop or his designee, exactly as the "Apostolic" churches continue to do until our own times.


There really doesn't seem to be anything special in any of that. Ordination is often described as being set apart. Your congregations are organized into wards, while other denominations organize them into deaneries, dioceses, or classis, etc.

BTW, I notice that you quote Justin Martyr as referring to the congregation communing with bread and wine. How many of your congregations or wards use wine or grape juice?

I am no fan of Justin Martyr by any means. Christ said he would not drink of the vine again [after the last supper] until He did it with them in the Father's kingdom.
Matt 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

When the church was restored we were instructed to use wine of our own make, but that quickly gave way to the use of water.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,262
✟583,992.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
I am no fan of Justin Martyr by any means. Christ said he would not drink of the vine again [after the last supper] until He did it with them in the Father's kingdom.

No matter. Justin Martyr was cited by you as evidence of the similarity between the early church and LDS, but in actuality it disproved the proposition (with regard to the Lord's Supper, which is the primary observance of the Christian church).

When the church was restored we were instructed to use wine of our own make, but that quickly gave way to the use of water.
Therefore, it may be said that almost everyone is closer to the early church than the LDS is. ;)
 
Upvote 0

CelticRebel

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
May 21, 2015
623
64
70
✟83,115.00
Faith
Christian
To the OP: I don't know. But I would look for one that contains these doctrines and practices, as being what the NT and earliest churches/Christians held:

1. Congregational autonomy
2. Believer's baptism, by immersion, or pouring if immersion can't be had
3. Christus Victor/Ransom/Recapitulation atonement
4. Bodily resurrection
5. Women in leadership positions
6. No Calvinist doctrines
7. Church as a family
8. Spiritual gifts, but no "baptism of the HS" as defined by Pentecostals
9. No total depravity
10. Justification not forensic or defined in legal terms
11. Scripture as primary authority
12. Original sin not defined to include guilt
13. No church-state union
14. Open communion.

Now, the question is, is there a denomination or Body of Christians that holds to these? I'm not sure myself, but I know plenty who do not.
 
Upvote 0

Liberasit

Well-Known Member
Oct 25, 2013
1,594
132
✟25,504.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Private
Hello all.

I'm very new to Christian history or anything outside the Anglican Church really. I was just wondering what modern day denomination, in your opinion, is closest to the early Christians in terms of what they believed and how they worshipped. I know a lot of denominations, including my own, claim to be Apostolic but some of these are very different indeed.
I would say, for sure, the Church of England.

It is important to preach the gospel anew in each generation.
 
Upvote 0

CelticRebel

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
May 21, 2015
623
64
70
✟83,115.00
Faith
Christian
The oldest records we have of the early church are found in Holy Scripture. Once you find a church that teaches and worships like those found in the Bible you'll find the church.

So, since I see that you're Baptist, I assume you would say that would be the Baptists.
 
Upvote 0

CelticRebel

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
May 21, 2015
623
64
70
✟83,115.00
Faith
Christian
Well, of course. Every believer presupposes the church they attend accurately reflects and continues in the teachings of the early church.

jm


I don't know. I think some people go to a church because it's the most convenient one, or because of the programs it has, or for any number of reasons.
 
Upvote 0

Root of Jesse

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord
Site Supporter
Jun 23, 2011
18,909
3,645
Bay Area, California
Visit site
✟399,065.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
I don't know. I think some people go to a church because it's the most convenient one, or because of the programs it has, or for any number of reasons.
Or the ideas of the Church on hot topics of the day make their particular lifestyle "OK". When I chose to be Catholic, I was living a lifestyle where I could do practically anything I wanted. When I sought out some structure in my spiritual life, a Priest led me to the Beatitudes, and my house of cards collapsed. Everything I used to do-drinking heavily, smoking, partaking of porn, flirting, and so on, was, inconveniently, against this Church I sought. Even some of my attitudes toward lifestyles of others-gay, polygamist, abortion on demand, etc. was ok before, because it didn't affect me. I had to change radically to be a Catholic, and I did. Christianity should not be about convenience in this life, it should be about being ready for eternal life.
 
Upvote 0

Zetlander

Member
Mar 15, 2013
93
4
Waikato
✟15,243.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
There is a lot of information posted on this thread. I haven't read anyone who is quoting from christian history, all are quoting from the catholic or church's that came out of the reformation. The original christian church would be the catholic church today….the original followers of 'jesus' were all jewish and until the council of nicea 325 under constantine the followers were all lead by jewish followers who were like jesus torah observant, sabbath observant (7th day) Feast observant etc, (council of nicea and subsequent meetings all of western leaders outlawed everything jewish and replaced the feasts and altered the commandments and made the guidelines of god obsolete, introduced terms OT and NT, introduced grace not works and changed a whole lot to suit them)_..so that would be the church today….so the closest today would then have to be the Netzarim…they are not messianic before anyone plays that card, messianic followers are more confused than christians.
 
Upvote 0

JM

Confessional Free Catholic
Site Supporter
Jun 26, 2004
17,477
3,735
Canada
✟877,654.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Others
Zet, once you dig into the history it all becomes politicized. Is the old Roman State church the' Christian church? If so, does that mean whoever holds political power defines the faith?

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
Upvote 0

RhaegarTargaryen

Active Member
May 27, 2015
369
52
42
✟784.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
I was just wondering what modern day denomination, in your opinion, is closest to the early Christians in terms of what they believed and how they worshipped.

Bible-faithful Lutherans (not the fake "Lutherans" who call themselves such but are of the synagogue of satan)
 
Upvote 0

GreekOrthodox

Psalti Chrysostom
Oct 25, 2010
4,120
4,198
Yorktown VA
✟191,432.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Bible-faithful Lutherans (not the fake "Lutherans" who call themselves such but are of the synagogue of satan)

Wow, you must get along great with the LutherQuest / Casione crowd or did you jump all the way to the CLC?
 
Upvote 0