What de-conversion feels like

Lycaenidae · Nov 29, 2005

TheListener said:
Are all stages of evolution accounted for through fossils?

I'm talking about macroevolution, not microevolution.

Are you saying science knows all there is to know about human DNA?

Are you saying science can explain how life first started?

There is no difference between macroevolution and microevolution. Those are words religious zealots made up to trick idiots.

anunbeliever · Nov 29, 2005

I get what The Listener is saying. When i was a believer i saw no miracles and no direct evidence for the existance of God. That was part of the reason why my faith failed.

If, however, Jesus was in the practice of coming over my house every Tuesday for morning tea, then the implications would be much greater. I would have to entertain the possibility that my visitor was an imposter. But the visitor conjuered the tea out of thin air. So i'd also have to consider that he was an illusionist like David Copperfield and was decieving me. The alternative is that i was under the influence of some drug or that i was insane.

TheListener · Nov 29, 2005

anunbeliever said:
I get what The Listener is saying. When i was a believer i saw no miracles and no direct evidence for the existance of God. That was part of the reason why my faith failed.

If, however, Jesus was in the practice of coming over my house every Tuesday for morning tea, then the implications would be much greater. I would have to entertain the possibility that my visitor was an imposter. But the visitor conjuered the tea out of thin air. So i'd also have to consider that he was an illusionist like David Copperfield and was decieving me. The alternative is that i was under the influence of some drug or that i was insane.

In other words nothing would convince you?

TheListener · Nov 29, 2005

Lycaenidae said:
There is no difference between macroevolution and microevolution. Those are words religious zealots made up to trick idiots.

A fish evolving into an amphibean is called what then?

Osiris · Nov 29, 2005

TheListener said:
Jesus didn't perform His miracles in the cover of darkness but in full daylight, often in front of sceptics and unbelievers.

So, if I wrote that, 100,000,000 people were there when I was doing such acts of creating and destroying stars... and since X place existed and Y village existed in X place --- and no one other than me wrote about what I said...

it must mean that I am able to create and destroy stars?

So, just because I write that I had 100,000,000 witnesses, does that mean that I really had 100,000,000 witnesses? hmmm

pantsman52 · Nov 29, 2005

TheListener said:
A fish evolving into an amphibean is called what then?

Evolution. New species don't just pop up instantly, its slow gradual changes adding up over time.

anunbeliever · Nov 29, 2005

Its been said in this thread that you cannot choose what you believe. I think this is true. Your beliefs are shaped by facts that you are familiar with. You must first accept said facts as being true. Some people come to believe things which are untrue due to incomplete or erroneous information.

Say someone comes to believe in the scientifically provable reality of young Earth Creation. They would reach this conclusion according to the information they have. If they only get their information from Christian sources like AiG, they have an incomplete picture. They dont have all the facts.

Other believers have researched all the facts. They discount or disregard particular pro-atheist information as they consider it false. They reach this conclusion by weighing counter arguments from YEC sources. They may reach their decisions depending on the perceived credibility of the author, or on how it fits into their world-view.

The credibility of the evidence may be tainted by an erroneous counter claim. For example; many creationists believe that carbon dating is inherrantly flawed. They beleive this because they read of experiments by creationists which claim to have proved the mechanism flawed. However, the claim is untrue because the experiment was carried out incorrectly. From one false piece of data an entire belief system can develop.

anunbeliever · Nov 29, 2005

TheListener said:
In other words nothing would convince you?

On the contrary - i am agreeing with you. Had i had a supernatural experience of God i would still be a believer today. Even now, should God choose to reveal himself that way, i would believe again.

TheListener · Nov 29, 2005

Osiris said:
So, if I wrote that, 100,000,000 people were there when I was doing such acts of creating and destroying stars... and since X place existed and Y village existed in X place --- and no one other than me wrote about what I said...

it must mean that I am able to create and destroy stars?

So, just because I write that I had 100,000,000 witnesses, does that mean that I really had 100,000,000 witnesses? hmmm

If people saw you destroy stars and no one rejected it, if the authorities were threatened by you enough to execute you, if your followers turned from simple men to lions afer you came back to life, if you're followers are alive & kicking today as proof of that, if so many people claim so many religious experiences, and if you yourself had some experiences then yes I'd say it is true.

TheListener · Nov 29, 2005

anunbeliever said:
On the contrary - i am agreeing with you. Had i had a supernatural experience of God i would still be a believer today. Even now, should God choose to reveal himself that way, i would believe again.

You need to seek God.

TheListener · Nov 29, 2005

Do we have fossile to prove them in all their phases of this gradual change? Or is it just a theory by looking at the similarities between species?

Lycaenidae · Nov 29, 2005

TheListener said:
A fish evolving into an amphibean is called what then?

A change in allele frequency in a population over time.

variation + heredity + differential reproduction = change over time

It's quite simple, really.

Lycaenidae · Nov 29, 2005

TheListener said:
Do we have fossile to prove them in all their phases of this gradual change? Or is it just a theory by looking at the similarities between species?

Every single creature that reproduces is a transitional form. Do you have children? Then you're a transitional form. Say I took a picture of you every day from the day you were born until now. It would be a complete record of change over time and it would be obvious you were the same person. If we looked at a picture of you when you were 2, a picture of you at 10, and a picture at 25 it wouldn't be nearly as obvious that you were the same person.

CalculusCrusader · Nov 29, 2005

TheListener said:
Do we have fossile to prove them in all their phases of this gradual change? Or is it just a theory by looking at the similarities between species?

Fossilization (especially terrestrial fossilization) is a relatively rare event.

CalculusCrusader · Nov 29, 2005

Lycaenidae said:
There is no difference between macroevolution and microevolution. Those are words religious zealots made up to trick idiots.

Osiris · Nov 29, 2005

TheListener said:
If people saw you destroy stars and no one rejected it, if the authorities were threatened by you enough to execute you, if your followers turned from simple men to lions afer you came back to life, if you're followers are alive & kicking today as proof of that

I must confess...

I used to live in Ancient Greece in a place called Argos about 2650 years ago... you can check that place out, it has historical credibility. I did write about these events and my writings are still kept alive today in Europe by a secret group of people called Arganians. Rulers weren't really threatened by me, the few that did try to execute I just made them disappear. In battles, I turned my men into lions to have the upper hand, but that was only when I wanted to have fun and didn't make the enemy disappear. And ever since that I have been alive and moved around from place to place...

So, do you believe me now?

if so many people claim so many religious experiences, and if you yourself had some experiences then yes I'd say it is true.

Mormons, Jehova's Witnesses, Muslims, Hinduism... they all claim religious experiences...

TheListener · Nov 29, 2005

In other words, there is no proof that all life began in the seas & spread across the globe into what we have today. Darwin's theory is something that has no empirical evidence.

Am I correct?

Osiris · Nov 29, 2005

TheListener said:
In other words, there is no proof that all life began in the seas & spread across the globe into what we have today. Darwin's theory is something that has no empirical evidence.

Am I correct?

Darwin's theory is not about explaining how life began.
Darwin's theory model only explains that life, irrelevant of how it was created, is mutable -- has no fixed shaped.

TheListener · Nov 29, 2005

Osiris said:
I used to live in Ancient Greece in a place called Argos about 2650 years ago... you can check that place out, it has historical credibility. I did write about these events and my writings are still kept alive today in Europe by a secret group of people called Arganians. Rulers weren't really threatened by me, the few that did try to execute I just made them disappear. In battles, I turned my men into lions to have the upper hand, but that was only when I wanted to have fun and didn't make the enemy disappear. And ever since that I have been alive and moved around from place to place...

You are saying that all Christianity is based on is a few city names and a book.

I am saying people went to their death proclaiming the ressurection, we are here today as proof of that.

Lycaenidae · Nov 29, 2005

CalculusCrusader said:
Fossilization (especially terrestrial fossilization) is a relatively rare event.

That's why 90% of insect fossils from the Carboniferous era are Blattoid. It's not because cockroaches ruled the earth, it's because they happened to be in a convenient place for fossilization to occur.

What de-conversion feels like

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