What day is the Sabbath?

Hector Medina · Oct 2, 2002

I myself am planning to go on both days.

Saturday is the sabbath in the 4th commandment.

And Jesus did come back on Sunday and theres nothing wrong with worshiping him on Sunday.

Thats the ONLY reason I would support Sunday sabbath.

In Christ,

Hector

Claudia · Oct 3, 2002

Well I don't think the Mark of the Beast has been discussed yet. Does it have anything to do with the Sabbath? The Book of Revelation seems to focus on the idea of God's people being those who keep the commandments.

Revelation 12:17:
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

Then we have what is commonly known as the Three Angel's Messages. These special Angels have a very startling message to give to the world's inhabitants in these last days. Let's read it for it is the "Everlasting Gospel"...

Revelation 14:
6: And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7: Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
8: And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
9: And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and RECEIVE HIS MARK IN THE FOREHEAD OR IN THE HAND

10: The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 
12: Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

 

============

 

NOTICE: In the passage above we are being warned not to accept the Mark of the Beast. The study of who the Beast is... perhaps will be discussed in the future. But we can tell a little about it now. The Mark of the Beast is to be received in the FOREHEAD or IN THE HAND. Interesting terminology, especially when you take into account what it said in Deuteronomy:

Deuteronomy 6:
1: Now these are THE COMMANDMENTS, the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it:
2: That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.
3: Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do it; that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the LORD God of thy fathers hath promised thee, in the land that floweth with milk and honey.
4: Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
5: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
6: And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
7: And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
8: And thou shalt bind them for A SIGN UPON THINE HAND, and they shall be as FRONTLETS BETWEEN THINE EYES.
9: And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.

 

"Love the Lord with all your heart, soul and might" ... just the same as Jesus said, isn't it? a summary of the Law, you might say... way back in the Old Testament. But notice something else... In Deuteronomy 6:6 we just read that these commandments were to be a SIGN in the HAND and between the eyes, or the FOREHEAD.

 

Where did we just read that same phrase.  In Revelation, as part of the warning of the Mark of the Beast. The Mark would be in the hand or forehead. And what did the Three Angels say about God's people? "Here are they that keep the commandments of God" Rev. 14:12 Obviously the Mark of the Beast then has something to do with NOT keeping the commandments. And the SIGN that you are God's children has something to do with keeping the commandments.

 

God's SEAL or SIGN:

Isa:8:16: Bind up the testimony, SEAL the law among my disciples.

Ex:31:13: Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a SIGN between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

==========

Which particular commandment then is pointed out in the Three Angel's Messages?

 

Revelation 14:

6: And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7: Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

 

Does anyone know which commandment that refers to? Read Exodus 20:10,11

But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God... For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

 

The Seventh Day Sabbath is the SIGN that we worship the true God. He who created the heavens and the earth... our CREATOR. What obviously then would the Mark of the Beast have to do with? The false Sabbath... instituted by man? by the Beast power? Who is the Beast? ...a study in itself.

It would have to be that same power mentioned in the Book of Daniel, the one who would "think to change times and laws" and this one:

 

2 Thessalonians 2:3: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4: Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

A power who would put himself in the place of God... Who would that be?
 

Claudia

 

 

 

Claudia · Oct 3, 2002

 

 What about 666?  Lets take a look.

 On the Pope's official mitre is the title "Vicarius Filii Dei," which means "Vicar of the Son of God."  The claim that this is his official title has been stated publicly through the years.  The April 18, 1915 issue of Our Sunday Visitor, states:  "The letters inscribed in the Pope's mitre are these: "VICARIUS FILII DEI," which is Latin for Vicar of the Son of God."

 In Revelation 13:18 it says, "Count the number of the beast; for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and size. (666)."

 Let's do it now and see what we find.  Remember the Roman numerals you learned in school?

V = 5
I = 1
C - 100
A = 0
R = 0
I =1
U = 5
S = 0
  "U" and "V" have the same value.  Look in your encyclopedia under
  "Alphabet."
F = 0
I = 1
L = 50
I = 1
I = 1

D = 500
E = 0
I = 1                  Total  = 666 

 

"Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change [of the Sabbath to Sunday] was her act... AND THE ACT IS A MARK of her ecclesiastical power." -from the office of Cardinal Gibbons, through Chancellor H. F. Thomas, Nov. 11, 1895

"Blasphemy" means to put yourself in the place of God. "a Mark" of her power... interesting terminology.

 The Bible says that the beast has "the name of blasphemy."  Revelation 13:1.  "It became one of the leading doctrines of the church that its visible head is invested with supreme authority over bishops and pastors in all parts of the world.  More than this, he took the very name of God!  He was addressed as "Lord God the Pope" and declared to be "infallible."    He demands the worship of all men.
 

Rafael · Oct 3, 2002

That is why Jesus accepted worship - in answer to Claudia's steam on the 4th commandment. How many scriptures does it take to show that all was fulfilled In Jesus? Truthseeker, you dodged my comment on narrow view of faith and went on to tell me about broad is the way to distruction. Earlier you amened to John R7's quip about how faith was not labor.......yet it is tied to labor as I showed in James.

The ten commandments cannot be broken if the two new and great commandments given by Jesus are applied in faith.

Ro 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Mt 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Matt 5:17-18 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle of the law shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 ¶ For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

No, the commandments are not destroyed, but fulfilled in Jesus, who is even better than a day, but God, Himself, made flesh and manifested among us. Deny Him worship and the 4th commandment fulfilled in "Love God with all our hearts mind souls and strength", is broken - yes. He is the rest God promised to come and we are to strive to enter into that rest with our obedience to the new laws of love and better covenant that cannot break any of the ten commandments - I've already posted these scriptures ignored.
Why do you think Jesus told the Pharisees He was Lord of the sabbath?
Why would He point to Himself as the one who would give rest to those weary and heavily burdened?
Why invite us to abide in Him? We in Him and He in us is the only way. He covers and keeps us and to hold any work up to Him on that day will be in vain whether it is casting out demons or going to church on Sunday or Saturday...........What does He ask about when He returns? Is it about saturday or Sunday? No. Denying Jesus His glory and preeminence is something I think the Father may frown on since every knee shall bow and tongue confess. In Him (Christ) we have our perfection and He is all sufficient.

2 Cor. 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

2Pet. 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

He in us and us in Him........who is our High priest now? Where is His temple? From the moment of salvation, each believer is in Christ (2Cor. 5:17) and Christ is in the believer (1Cor. 1:27). The Holy Spirit abides within, as well (Rom. 8:9) - the Christian is His temple (1Cor. 6:19). "Of His fulness we have received, and grace upon grace" (John 1:16) There is nothing more but Jesus - "HIs divine power has granted us everything pertaining to life and godliness throught the true knowledge of Him who called us" (again - 2Pet. 1:3)

Satan has always tried to beguile Christians away from the purity and simplicity of an all-sufficient Christ (2Cor. 11:3):
"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."

Is it Christ plus anything or Him alone that salvation comes?
Christ plus legalism is exactly what Paul addressed to the Colossians in 2:16-17:
"16 ¶ Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."

Paul also said "We are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh" (Phil.3:3). What did these verses mean? verses 4-9 answer:
" ¶ though I also have cause of trust in flesh. If any other one doth think to have trust in flesh, I more;
5 circumcision on the eighth day! of the race of Israel! of the tribe of Benjamin! a Hebrew of Hebrews! according to law a Pharisee!
6 according to zeal persecuting the assembly! according to righteousness that is in law becoming blameless!
7 But what things were to me gains, these I have counted, because of the Christ, loss;
8 yes, indeed, and I count all things to be loss, because of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, because of whom of the all things I suffered loss, and do count them to be refuse, that Christ I may gain, and be found in him,
9 ¶ not having my righteousness, which is of law, but that which is through faith of Christthe righteousness that is of God by the faith,"

Would the following be plainer? "For sin shall not have dominion over you: FOR YE ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW, but under GRACE." Romans 6:14

I wonder if we might turn this around. I've given you many scriptural verses and passages, all of them saying in one way or another that the law was fulfilled in Christ (Matt 5:17-18), that the law and prophets "....prophesied until John" (Matt 11:13), that the law "....was added because of transgressions, TILL THE SEED SHOULD COME TO WHOM THE PROMISE WAS MADE" Gal 3:19, that this seed is Christ, "And to thy seed, which is Christ" Gal 3:16.

I've pointed out that in the matter of covenants, as the Old Testament is called the first covenant, while the New Testament is called the new or another covenant, "For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second" Heb 8:7, and in finding fault with that first covenant, which is the covenant we know as the ten commandments, for it was given to Israel while they wondered in the deserts after fleeing Egypt, "NOT according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt..." Heb 8:9

And finding fault with that first covenant, he found it necessary to, "....take (th) away the first, that he might establish the second" Heb 10:9

I've pointed out that the law is called the 'ministration of death', the 'ministration of condemnation', the 'handwriting of ordinances which was against us', the 'enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances', the law of sin and death. And that Jesus abolished it, nailed it to His cross, took it out of the way, in order to establish the second....

Everything we need is in Him that was promised, our new covenant and better covenant - mediator and Saviour - our everything. What praise and glory should be ascribed to His name can only be expressed by a plea for a thousand tongues. The Pharisees continually came back at Paul and the disciples again and again with faithless rules and laws to diminish or detract from God's final work through Christ.

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle of the law shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Matt 5:17-18

till all be fulfilled............. Jesus!

thetruthseeker · Oct 3, 2002

Originally posted by Hector Medina
I myself am planning to go on both days.

Saturday is the sabbath in the 4th commandment.

And Jesus did come back on Sunday and theres nothing wrong with worshiping him on Sunday.

Thats the ONLY reason I would support Sunday sabbath.

In Christ,

Hector

Hi Hector,

That's great news! You will find that the Sabbath is a blessing and a stress reliever too--a day that will give you a good charge for the next week!

However, a distinction should be kept. We can go to church and worship Jesus any time or day, however, the Sabbath (Saturday) is one complete day that is set aside for Jesus--no shopping, worrying about paying bill, or the hussle and bustle of work, but Jesus . The real problem comes in replacing the Sabbath with Sunday or not observing the Sabbath day at all. There is also the temptation of making more out of Sunday than the Sabbath. According to the Bible, Sunday is just as secular as Monday, Tuesday, Wednsday... It is a work day.

Hector, one thing that you will find that is ironic is that virtually everyone who says that we just need to pick one day out of the seven (the week) seem to choose Sunday. I believe that Claudia and I have touched on some of the reasons.

Thanks for responding, Hector.

Your brother in Christ,
TheTruthSeeker

thetruthseeker · Oct 3, 2002

Originally posted by raphe
That is why Jesus accepted worship - in answer to Claudia's steam on the 4th commandment. How many scriptures does it take to show that all was fulfilled In Jesus? Truthseeker, you dodged my comment on narrow view of faith and went on to tell me about broad is the way to distruction. Earlier you amened to John R7's quip about how faith was not labor.......yet it is tied to labor as I showed in James.

The ten commandments cannot be broken if the two new and great commandments given by Jesus are applied in faith.

Ro 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Mt 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Matt 5:17-18 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle of the law shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 ¶ For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

No, the commandments are not destroyed, but fulfilled in Jesus, who is even better than a day, but God, Himself, made flesh and manifested among us. Deny Him worship and the 4th commandment fulfilled in "Love God with all our hearts mind souls and strength", is broken - yes. He is the rest God promised to come and we are to strive to enter into that rest with our obedience to the new laws of love and better covenant that cannot break any of the ten commandments - I've already posted these scriptures ignored.
Why do you think Jesus told the Pharisees He was Lord of the sabbath?
Why would He point to Himself as the one who would give rest to those weary and heavily burdened?
Why invite us to abide in Him? We in Him and He in us is the only way. He covers and keeps us and to hold any work up to Him on that day will be in vain whether it is casting out demons or going to church on Sunday or Saturday...........What does He ask about when He returns? Is it about saturday or Sunday? No. Denying Jesus His glory and preeminence is something I think the Father may frown on since every knee shall bow and tongue confess. In Him (Christ) we have our perfection and He is all sufficient.

2 Cor. 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

2Pet. 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

He in us and us in Him........who is our High priest now? Where is His temple? From the moment of salvation, each believer is in Christ (2Cor. 5:17) and Christ is in the believer (1Cor. 1:27). The Holy Spirit abides within, as well (Rom. 8:9) - the Christian is His temple (1Cor. 6:19). "Of His fulness we have received, and grace upon grace" (John 1:16) There is nothing more but Jesus - "HIs divine power has granted us everything pertaining to life and godliness throught the true knowledge of Him who called us" (again - 2Pet. 1:3)

Satan has always tried to beguile Christians away from the purity and simplicity of an all-sufficient Christ (2Cor. 11:3):
"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."

Is it Christ plus anything or Him alone that salvation comes?
Christ plus legalism is exactly what Paul addressed to the Colossians in 2:16-17:
"16 ¶ Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."

Paul also said "We are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh" (Phil.3:3). What did these verses mean? verses 4-9 answer:
" ¶ though I also have cause of trust in flesh. If any other one doth think to have trust in flesh, I more;
5 circumcision on the eighth day! of the race of Israel! of the tribe of Benjamin! a Hebrew of Hebrews! according to law a Pharisee!
6 according to zeal persecuting the assembly! according to righteousness that is in law becoming blameless!
7 But what things were to me gains, these I have counted, because of the Christ, loss;
8 yes, indeed, and I count all things to be loss, because of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, because of whom of the all things I suffered loss, and do count them to be refuse, that Christ I may gain, and be found in him,
9 ¶ not having my righteousness, which is of law, but that which is through faith of Christthe righteousness that is of God by the faith,"

Would the following be plainer? "For sin shall not have dominion over you: FOR YE ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW, but under GRACE." Romans 6:14

I wonder if we might turn this around. I've given you many scriptural verses and passages, all of them saying in one way or another that the law was fulfilled in Christ (Matt 5:17-18), that the law and prophets "....prophesied until John" (Matt 11:13), that the law "....was added because of transgressions, TILL THE SEED SHOULD COME TO WHOM THE PROMISE WAS MADE" Gal 3:19, that this seed is Christ, "And to thy seed, which is Christ" Gal 3:16.

I've pointed out that in the matter of covenants, as the Old Testament is called the first covenant, while the New Testament is called the new or another covenant, "For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second" Heb 8:7, and in finding fault with that first covenant, which is the covenant we know as the ten commandments, for it was given to Israel while they wondered in the deserts after fleeing Egypt, "NOT according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt..." Heb 8:9

And finding fault with that first covenant, he found it necessary to, "....take (th) away the first, that he might establish the second" Heb 10:9

I've pointed out that the law is called the 'ministration of death', the 'ministration of condemnation', the 'handwriting of ordinances which was against us', the 'enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances', the law of sin and death. And that Jesus abolished it, nailed it to His cross, took it out of the way, in order to establish the second....

Everything we need is in Him that was promised, our new covenant and better covenant - mediator and Saviour - our everything. What praise and glory should be ascribed to His name can only be expressed by a plea for a thousand tongues. The Pharisees continually came back at Paul and the disciples again and again with faithless rules and laws to diminish or detract from God's final work through Christ.

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle of the law shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Matt 5:17-18

till all be fulfilled............. Jesus!

Hi, Raphe.

I will respond tonight.

Thanks.

Your brother in Christ,
TheTruthSeeker

Elnaam · Oct 3, 2002

Originally posted by raphe
That is why Jesus accepted worship - in answer to Claudia's steam on the 4th commandment. How many scriptures does it take to show that all was fulfilled In Jesus? Truthseeker, you dodged my comment on narrow view of faith and went on to tell me about broad is the way to distruction. Earlier you amened to John R7's quip about how faith was not labor.......yet it is tied to labor as I showed in James.

The ten commandments cannot be broken if the two new and great commandments given by Jesus are applied in faith.

Ro 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Mt 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Matt 5:17-18 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle of the law shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 ¶ For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

No, the commandments are not destroyed, but fulfilled in Jesus, who is even better than a day, but God, Himself, made flesh and manifested among us. Deny Him worship and the 4th commandment fulfilled in "Love God with all our hearts mind souls and strength", is broken - yes. He is the rest God promised to come and we are to strive to enter into that rest with our obedience to the new laws of love and better covenant that cannot break any of the ten commandments - I've already posted these scriptures ignored.
Why do you think Jesus told the Pharisees He was Lord of the sabbath?
Why would He point to Himself as the one who would give rest to those weary and heavily burdened?
Why invite us to abide in Him? We in Him and He in us is the only way. He covers and keeps us and to hold any work up to Him on that day will be in vain whether it is casting out demons or going to church on Sunday or Saturday...........What does He ask about when He returns? Is it about saturday or Sunday? No. Denying Jesus His glory and preeminence is something I think the Father may frown on since every knee shall bow and tongue confess. In Him (Christ) we have our perfection and He is all sufficient.

2 Cor. 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

2Pet. 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

He in us and us in Him........who is our High priest now? Where is His temple? From the moment of salvation, each believer is in Christ (2Cor. 5:17) and Christ is in the believer (1Cor. 1:27). The Holy Spirit abides within, as well (Rom. 8:9) - the Christian is His temple (1Cor. 6:19). "Of His fulness we have received, and grace upon grace" (John 1:16) There is nothing more but Jesus - "HIs divine power has granted us everything pertaining to life and godliness throught the true knowledge of Him who called us" (again - 2Pet. 1:3)

Satan has always tried to beguile Christians away from the purity and simplicity of an all-sufficient Christ (2Cor. 11:3):
"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."

Is it Christ plus anything or Him alone that salvation comes?
Christ plus legalism is exactly what Paul addressed to the Colossians in 2:16-17:
"16 ¶ Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."

Paul also said "We are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh" (Phil.3:3). What did these verses mean? verses 4-9 answer:
" ¶ though I also have cause of trust in flesh. If any other one doth think to have trust in flesh, I more;
5 circumcision on the eighth day! of the race of Israel! of the tribe of Benjamin! a Hebrew of Hebrews! according to law a Pharisee!
6 according to zeal persecuting the assembly! according to righteousness that is in law becoming blameless!
7 But what things were to me gains, these I have counted, because of the Christ, loss;
8 yes, indeed, and I count all things to be loss, because of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, because of whom of the all things I suffered loss, and do count them to be refuse, that Christ I may gain, and be found in him,
9 ¶ not having my righteousness, which is of law, but that which is through faith of Christthe righteousness that is of God by the faith,"

Would the following be plainer? "For sin shall not have dominion over you: FOR YE ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW, but under GRACE." Romans 6:14

I wonder if we might turn this around. I've given you many scriptural verses and passages, all of them saying in one way or another that the law was fulfilled in Christ (Matt 5:17-18), that the law and prophets "....prophesied until John" (Matt 11:13), that the law "....was added because of transgressions, TILL THE SEED SHOULD COME TO WHOM THE PROMISE WAS MADE" Gal 3:19, that this seed is Christ, "And to thy seed, which is Christ" Gal 3:16.

I've pointed out that in the matter of covenants, as the Old Testament is called the first covenant, while the New Testament is called the new or another covenant, "For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second" Heb 8:7, and in finding fault with that first covenant, which is the covenant we know as the ten commandments, for it was given to Israel while they wondered in the deserts after fleeing Egypt, "NOT according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt..." Heb 8:9

And finding fault with that first covenant, he found it necessary to, "....take (th) away the first, that he might establish the second" Heb 10:9

I've pointed out that the law is called the 'ministration of death', the 'ministration of condemnation', the 'handwriting of ordinances which was against us', the 'enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances', the law of sin and death. And that Jesus abolished it, nailed it to His cross, took it out of the way, in order to establish the second....

Everything we need is in Him that was promised, our new covenant and better covenant - mediator and Saviour - our everything. What praise and glory should be ascribed to His name can only be expressed by a plea for a thousand tongues. The Pharisees continually came back at Paul and the disciples again and again with faithless rules and laws to diminish or detract from God's final work through Christ.

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle of the law shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Matt 5:17-18

till all be fulfilled............. Jesus!

Dispite what Christains have been doing through the centuries I believe the Sabboth is still Saturday.

thetruthseeker · Oct 4, 2002

Originally posted by raphe
That is why Jesus accepted worship - in answer to Claudia's steam on the 4th commandment. How many scriptures does it take to show that all was fulfilled In Jesus? Truthseeker, you dodged my comment on narrow view of faith and went on to tell me about broad is the way to distruction. Earlier you amened to John R7's quip about how faith was not labor.......yet it is tied to labor as I showed in James.
...

Everything we need is in Him that was promised, our new covenant and better covenant - mediator and Saviour - our everything. What praise and glory should be ascribed to His name can only be expressed by a plea for a thousand tongues. The Pharisees continually came back at Paul and the disciples again and again with faithless rules and laws to diminish or detract from God's final work through Christ.

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle of the law shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Matt 5:17-18

till all be fulfilled............. Jesus!

Hi, Raphe.

I appreciate our discussion because it gives us a pressing reason to study the Bible thoroughly for ourselves and not be content with "this is what I think or that was what I was told."

1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

My faith, hope and rest lies in Jesus. Yes, our rest is in Jesus. This has always been the case. This is why we observe the day (Sabbath-Saturday, our personal date with Him) that He set aside since creation, because we believe ALL of His word. We hold on to the Sabbath through faith in the hope of our final rest (heaven--where we will be keeping countless more Sabbaths in the very presence of Jesus in all of His glory).

David said:

Psalms 37:7 Rest in the LORD , and wait patiently for him: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass. King David (a Jew) rested in the Lord. The book of Psalms shows us that David had a very close, personal relationship with Jesus. He knew about the concepts of love, grace, obedience, kindness, humility, patience, the word, sanctification, faith, works, selfcontrol, etc...the fruit of the Spirit. He knew Jesus intimately--he even prophecied about the life and death of Jesus. This is why he respected the Lord and kept His Commandments--as given .

When we accept Jesus as our personal Lord and Saviour, he gives us a small taste or down payment of heaven (our final rest) here on earth.

Ephesians 1:13,14 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise , Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. The original Greek for the word "earnest " means down payment. Our promise as the seed of Abraham is the inheritence of the new Canaan (heaven).

Remember, that Jesus is not just our Saviour (forgives our sins, redeems us) but is also our Lord (we should obey Him).

The Bible does not contradict itself. We must have a personal relationship with God to find rest in Him. This is what the Sabbath is all about. It is a celebration of the Creation anniversary. A celebration of the relationship of God and man. We should give the Lord what He asks and not just what we feel like giving. However, He will not force us to do His will because He respects us, He loves us.

A scenerio:

I am married to a wonderful woman and so I tell her and everyone that I come in contact with that I love her with all my heart. My wife is easy to please; however, she is very sentimental and looks forward to every anniversary of ours with great anticipation. If I never grace her with sentiments of love (set that time aside) on our anniversary, but always miss it by a day or two, ignore it, or try to talk my way out of it, can I say that I really love her? More important than that, will she think that I really love her? This is exactly how we look when we bypass the anniversary of Jesus' creation (the Sabbath, Saturday).

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. We should keep the commandments the way Jesus wants us to keep them--or its just iniquity.

Remember, Jesus does not put up any fronts. He has no need to, He is God.

Jesus said:

Deuteronomy 4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

Jesus is jealous because He loves us beyond words.

The Bible tells us that we cannot be saved by works. We don't even have faith on our own--the Holy Spirit gives it to us. The Holy Spirit writes the Law of Jesus in our hearts and minds and makes us righteous (right doing). You see, when the Holy Spirit writes His Law in us, He writes the principles and spirit of the Law into our very character--we receive the seal of God. So, it automatically becomes our nature to want to please God and to loathe sin. We don't do good works to be saved. We do good works because we are saved.

1 Corinthians 12:7-9 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit ; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; Evidently, this is referring to an abundance of faith. However, it shows the source of faith.

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit , unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Romans 8:3-5 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. Walking after the flesh means to live in iniquity (lawlessness--Commanment breaking). We cannot keep the Law in our own strength; we cannot gain salvation on our own. However, we can keep the Law through the Holy Spirit.

Philippians 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

When we look into the mirror (the 10 Commandments) and see dirt, we should call on the grace of Jesus to remove the dirt. He does this through justification and sanctification. We must be justified and sanctified through Christ.

Jesus came to teach us how to keep the Law in the Spirit that is why He is called the end of the Law. He was the perfect example.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. Again, the original Greek word for "end " is "telos" this literally means goal and result. Jesus is our example. As the Holy Spirit writes the Law Jesus into our hearts, we become more and more like Jesus. We keep the Law in its fullness . This is the process of sanctifaction. Every Christian who confesses that Jesus Christ is Lord and God and repents of his sin is justified--forgiven. The process of sanctification makes us righteous (right doing). In other words it enables us to do Jesus' will--His Commandments.

We must be obedient in order to abide in Jesus just as He abided in His Father by keeping His Father's Commandments. He is our example .

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments , ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments , and abide in his love.

Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven . Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity .

The will of the Father is His Commandments. We are commanded to keep them as He asks us to not in our own reasoning. Jesus is the God, not us.

The Law is the very character of Jesus this is why He is called the Word. Jesus holds His law in high regard.

Psalms 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. The Hebrew word for word here is "imrah" this literally means Commandments.

There is a clear distinction between the Commandments and the ordinances (ceremonial) laws.

Colossians 2:14-17 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross ; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Luke 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. The Commandments were never nailed to the cross.

The 10 Commandments (the testimony) are a replica of the Commandments in heaven.

Revelation 15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:

Isaiah 66:22,23 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

The Sabbath was created before sin--it is not a shadow of any type. The Sabbath (4th commandment) is un-ending. Get used to it, we will be keeping it in heaven--not figuratively , but in spirit and truth.

Thanks, Raphe.
TheTruthSeeker

Rafael · Oct 4, 2002

Your case would be fine and well put together - convincing, except for the balance of the scriptures I gave earlier that aren't addressed which tells me I am in obedience to God in only one place. In Him Jesus the Christ and annointed one.

Ro 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

2Pet. 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

I see that only an act of God will change your mind and I don't judge you as a bad person for worshipping on Saturday, but I worship Him in Spirit and truth which is every day (Jn. 4:24). I see in Christ the fullness and completeness of God's work for our salvation (Col. 2:9,10). Of course we have to obey, but the things He asks about in obedience upon His return all reflect the practical love of giving of ourselves in the same manner that He gave. He will ask if we fed and clothed Him or visited Him while He was sick. Did we give Him shelter when He was a stranger?

 The Pharisees and their leaven is what Jesus warned of, and it is nearly the whole reflection of organized religions, that I can see, with people arguing over new moons and sabbaths and everything else instead of really making a difference in the world through redeeming the time in practical love which starts with loving God wth all your heart, soul, and mind and then loving your neighbor as yourself . Now "no man hateth his own flesh" and clothes and feeds himself daily, yet we see our neighbor in need and let him starve or go naked in most cases (Eph. 5:29). I can only hope that the leaven goes no farther than the time consuming arguments and not emulates them further with "shutting up the gates of heaven to many" as they often did, as they would condemn others that did not observe the laws of God and accused and put to death - even our Saviour Jesus (Mt. 23:13). Perhaps you or Claudia would condemn me to hell for not having faith in a day, but in Jesus, where I hope to abide until I am revealed with Him on that day (Col. 3.3). Yes, I am there with Him and He is here with me, and I rest in Him from my works to be saved (Heb. 4:10,11). I am saved through His sacrifice upon the cross and am born to a new creature that has the laws of God written upon my heart urging me on through the conviction of the Holy Spirit to obedience from the inside with no outward show or fancy dress (Gal 6:15). The work of obedience is daily as I deny myself and pick up my cross and follow after Him (Mat.16:24). 

I "believe all things" and give everybody that love that is my debt to all men and women and judge none - especially anybody that calls upon the name of the Lord - for they will not be disappointed if it is a true cry and not just a word for gain. Perhaps we would be able to gather at the feet of Jesus somewhere in eternity and know the truth in a second if you would have me there with you, but I know that many who believe as you do would exclude me from that scene because of a temporal thing such as a day, whereas Jesus will be forever and not measured by a span of 24 hours.

Hope to see you all there.

thetruthseeker · Oct 5, 2002

Originally posted by Elnaam
Dispite what Christains have been doing through the centuries I believe the Sabboth is still Saturday.

Amen!

thetruthseeker · Oct 6, 2002

Originally posted by raphe
Your case would be fine and well put together - convincing, except for the balance of the scriptures I gave earlier that aren't addressed which tells me I am in obedience to God in only one place. In Him Jesus the Christ and annointed one.

Hi Raphe.

What scriptures are you referring to?

Please re-read the thread. I've explained these and more:

The Old and New Covenants

Faith as it relates to works

The fact that Jesus holds His Commandments above His name

The fact that the Sabbath is not a shadow of any type and was observerd literally by Jesus and Paul and all the folk in the Bible observed it (using their scripture to support your position cannot work because the Bible just doesn't support you position on this topic)

The fact that the Sabbath will be kept in heaven

The fact that ALL Christians are spiritual Jews

The fact that Jesus kept all of His own Commandments and we need to be like Jesus because He is our example

The fact that all the promises that Jesus makes to us is conditional upon obedience to His Commandments

The fact that from Genesis to Revelation, not one soul can be found changing or doing away with the Sabbath

Claudia and I have shown you historical proof etc...

Etc...

I've come to the realization that the Bible is so intricately written that if someone reads it without prejudice one can only to the conclusion that the Sabbath is still holy and should be observed.

If a truth is in the Bible it cannot be removed and if a truth is not in the Bible it cannot be added. Adding or taking away from the word (even by reasoning ) makes the Bible a book of confusion and contradictions.

The reason why the evidence for the sanctity for the Sabbath is so strong is because it is simply the truth.

Ro 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

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How, in the same way that Jesus fulfilled the Law, right? By executing or carrying out the Law. Living the Law how Jesus did. He's our example.

The above quote is a summary of the last 6 of the 10 Commandments. You could have also quoted this:

James 2:8-12 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself , ye do well: But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Both James and Paul are quoting Jesus.

Matthew 22:35-40 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind . This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself . On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets . Jesus is quoting the Old Testament.

If "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as yourself " summarizes ("briefly comprehended ") the last 6 Commandments (these refer to our love and duty for our neighbors). What Commandments do "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind " summarize? The first 4 Commandments of the 10 Commandments. The first 4 Commandments refer to our love and duty to Jesus.

Jesus is saying in Matthew 22:35-40 that the 10 Commandments summarizes the entire Bible (law and the prophets, the Bible is a book of laws and prophecies) and that love summarizes the 10 Commandments (and that the 10 Commandments ought to be kept in the spirit of love).

Do we have a duty to keep the first 4 Commandments (including 4th--Sabbath day)? Yes, the Bible makes it plain. Because of this I will not:
1) Have any other gods but Jesus
2) Make images that I bow down to and worship
3) Take the name of Jesus in vain
4) Break the Sabbath

Jesus was speaking in Matthew just as He was speaking in Exodus.

Jesus never changes.

Psalms 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.

Jesus has always wanted men to keep the 10 Commandments in the Spirit.

Deuteronomy 11:13 And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul ,

Deuteronomy 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul , that thou mayest live.

Leviticus 19:13-20 Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him:...Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD. Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart ...Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself : I am the LORD. ...And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband , and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free.

Again, this is evidently a summary of the last 6 Commandments.

2Pet. 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

Click to expand...

What is your point here?

I see that only an act of God will change your mind and I don't judge you as a bad person for worshipping on Saturday, but I worship Him in Spirit and truth which is every day (Jn. 4:24).

Click to expand...

I have and never will judge you, however, the Bible is like a two edged sword... I also worship Jesus every day and night. However, I choose to follow Jesus' (and Paul's, and Mary's and...) example of how He kept the Sabbath and the fact that He did truly keep the Sabbath--in spirit and in truth. God, not man is my example.

I see in Christ the fullness and completeness of God's work for our salvation (Col. 2:9,10).

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I do too, however, we cannot abide in Jesus if we don't allow the Holy Spirit to help us keep Jesus' Commandments. The Bible said that, not me.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them , he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Again:

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love ; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Of course we have to obey, but the things He asks about in obedience upon His return all reflect the practical love of giving of ourselves in the same manner that He gave. He will ask if we fed and clothed Him or visited Him while He was sick. Did we give Him shelter when He was a stranger?

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Yes, these things are good, however, full obedience and love on our part is also reflected by wether or not we keep ALL of His Commandments. Jesus is particular about HOW we obey Him--ask Cain, Jonah, Moses, Uzzah, Ananias, King David, King Saul, etc...God has feelings too.

...Perhaps you or Claudia would condemn me to hell for not having faith in a day, but in Jesus, where I hope to abide until I am revealed with Him on that day (Col. 3.3).

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Again, I have not argued with you, or condemned you. I have done nothing more than quote the Bible truthfully and honestly. You feel condemned by me, so I apologize. However, truth is truth regardless of how it comes or who it comes from.

Yes, I am there with Him and He is here with me, and I rest in Him from my works to be saved (Heb. 4:10,11). I am saved through His sacrifice upon the cross and am born to a new creature that has the laws of God written upon my heart urging me on through the conviction of the Holy Spirit to obedience from the inside with no outward show or fancy dress (Gal 6:15). The work of obedience is daily as I deny myself and pick up my cross and follow after Him (Mat.16:24). 

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You're speaking about the process of sanctification. Yes, it's a daily thing and something that last a lifetime. However, it will produce outward fruit too--if it's real. Jesus' showed literal and spiritual obedience to the 4th Commandment.

I "believe all things" and give everybody that love that is my debt to all men and women and judge none - especially anybody that calls upon the name of the Lord - for they will not be disappointed if it is a true cry and not just a word for gain. Perhaps we would be able to gather at the feet of Jesus somewhere in eternity and know the truth in a second if you would have me there with you, but I know that many who believe as you do would exclude me from that scene because of a temporal thing such as a day, whereas Jesus will be forever and not measured by a span of 24 hours.

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Are you judging me here? You're my brother in Christ--I mean that. This is just a discussion. Jesus IS forever and the Sabbath will be forever (un-ending) because Jesus said so (Isaiah 66:22,23). Faith is believing. I believe what ALL of what Jesus said. I want to do ALL of what He said through the Spirit.

What is your primary day of worship (gathering at church)? I've attended my friends' churches on Sunday. You said that you worship everyday--I do too. Would you ever attempt to keep the Sabbath day?

Hope to see you all there.

Click to expand...

I look forward to seeing you there, and I will, if we allow the Holy Spirit to remove the spirit of disbelief and write ALL of His laws in our mind and hearts.

Thanks for your reply, Raphe.

Your brother in Christ,
TheTruthSeeker

Claudia · Oct 6, 2002

raphe,

First of all there was no mention of anyone judging you at all, that is God's job... just stating facts from the Bible, that's all.

Secondly, when the lawyer asked Jesus which was the great commandment in the law, He answered:

"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.
39: And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

...Jesus was merely reiterating the following Bible verses from the Old Testament:

Deut 11:13 " And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul"

Lev:19:18 "Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD."

Loving the Lord with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself has ALWAYS been the summary of the 10 commandments... The first 4 commandments are summed up in Loving the Lord with all your heart... (have no idols, rest on the Sabbath, etc) the last 6 are summed up in loving your neighbor as yourself... (dont steal, commit adultery, kill, etc)

...all that was said in Romans 13 is that all of the commandments are summed up in loving God and your neighbor. There was no mention at all about doing away with them. John said:
"Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning." I John 2:7

==========
Isaiah Chapter 42 was a prophecy about what God's Son Jesus would do when He came... it said:

Isa:42:21: "The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; HE WILL MAGNIFY THE LAW, and make it honourable."  Jesus did not come to do away with the ten commandment law, but rather to magnify it, listen:

Matthew 5:
17: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19: Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20: For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
21: Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
23: Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
24: Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
25: Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
26: Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
27: Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

 

Notice that Jesus EXPANDED upon the Law... He in no way said He intended in doing away with it... He taught the true meaning of the Law.

...when in Matthew 5 :18 Jesus said: "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." ... a jot and tittle means not even the crossing of the letter t or the dotting of a letter i would be erased from the ten commandment law till heaven and earth pass away. Heaven and earth have not yet passed away, of course. Jesus, in fact, made sure to say that He did not intend on destroying the law and that He came to expand on it...

The Pharisees only kept the letter of the Law, Jesus came to reveal what true law-keeping was... not to do away with the Law at all. For instance, The work of Christ in healing the sick was in perfect accord with the law. It honored the Sabbath. He told the people to pull their neighbor's ox out of a ditch on Sabbath and not to allow suffering, just because it was Sabbath. The keeping of the Sabbath was never meant to mean we were to do away with love... for all the commandments revolved around love to God and to your neighbor. Jesus did not stop keeping the Sabbath, rather He showed how it SHOULD be kept.

I am very sorry if you view my merely pointing these things out to you as somehow judging you, for that is not my intention at all. This is between you and God, for JESUS has said to you in Matthew 5:19 "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." I judge no man.

Claudia

 

Claudia · Oct 6, 2002

raphe,

...about your comment on the sheep and goats:

There are to be but two classes upon the earth, the obedient children of God and the disobedient. Upon one occasion Christ thus set before His hearers the judgment work: "When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory: and before Him shall be gathered all nations: and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: and He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.

"Then shall the King say unto them on His right hand, Come, ye blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was an hungred, and ye gave Me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave Me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took Me in: naked, and ye clothed Me: I was sick, and ye visited Me: I was in prison, and ye came unto Me.

"Then shall the righteous answer Him, saying, Lord, when saw we Thee an hungred, and fed Thee? or thirsty, and gave Thee drink? When saw we Thee a stranger and took Thee in? or naked, and clothed Thee? or when saw we Thee sick, or in prison, and came unto Thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto Me" (Matthew 25:31-40

Thus Christ identifies His interest with that of suffering humanity. Every attention given to His children He considers done to Himself personally. Those who claim modern sanctification would have come boastingly forward, saying, "Lord, Lord, do You not know us? Have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works?" The people have described, who make these pretentious claims, apparently weaving Jesus into all their doings, fitly represent those who claim modern sanctification but who are at war with the law of God. Christ calls them workers of iniquity because they are deceivers, having on the garments of righteousness to hide the deformity of their characters, the inward wickedness of their unholy hearts.

To think that just feeding the hungry, clothing the naked etc is all that God requires of you, because of the sheep and goats illustration... is to misunderstand it's meaning. Jesus talked about wolves in sheep's clothing... He was merely saying that in the Judgment it will be shown who are REALLY God's children and who are not- but just pretending to be "sheep"...

Jesus was showing there are only two classes of people on earth, as far as God is concerned, the obedient and the disobedient.

One has to realize that all throughout the New Testament we are told of many OTHER things that will keep us out of heaven... such as:

1Cor:6:9: Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10: Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Should we look at the "Law of love" and the sheep and goats illustration alone and conclude that it doesnt matter if you are a drunkard because those verses dont mention drunkards being excluded from heaven? I would hope not. One needs to look at the entire Word of God. One especially should study the Book of Revelation and read about the dire warning about receiving the Mark of the Beast. Obviously there is more to this than just making sure we feed the hungry and clothe the naked.

Claudia

Rafael · Oct 6, 2002

I have heard it said by some believing in keeping the sabbath as a measure of time, that if the sabbath, as a day, isn't kept, then they are one of them goats that Claudia alludes to. I you don't judge that way, then that is good, for it is an attribute of the Pharisees and their religion of the dead. They had God's word and kept His laws, including the sabbath day to a "T" (tittle), yet had none of the Spirit which makes alive. Jesus confounded them with this when telling them that God was the God of the living -- not the dead.
I believe that upon receiving the Anointed as
Savior, we step into Eternity... and where time had been against us, a
place of cursing, it now becomes a place to learn of and grow up in the
Anointed, i.e., the anointings, i.e., the blessings.
Of course to learn to walk in the authority of the Anointed, we have to
learn commitment to Him which brings faith... and since the whole purpose
of human existence is for the Father to create His children, with His
faith reproduced in them, the blessings become less the focus than the
process by which we procure them, i.e., faith.
Again, the name of Jesus is the Anointing... "name" means authority and
His authority is the Anointing... Paul chose to know nothing among them
but "Christ and Him crucified," the Anointing and the Blood Covenant.
From Genesis to Revelation, all of Scripture can be summed up in those
three words... Blood Covenant Anointing... it is the song of the Most
High, and those who hear it, and learn to sing along with it, have a
place of rest, a continual Sabbath, each day, every day.
Those who won't hear, and won't sing along, busy themselves with
religion, and commentaries, and theological discussions, and generally do
the "deeds of the Nicolaitans."
Every scripture you give me about the sabbath and keeping it points me to Jesus. Again, I would exclude none for keeping Saturday of Sunday anyway they choose, but I see as Col 3:1 says to see and focus more on the eternity entered into once inside Jesus the annointing and authority of all things - the alpha and omega - author and finisher of our faith - the fullness of the Godhead bodily in whom we are complete. I love to see how it is all finished and the veil of the temple was split in two and seperation from God is done with. Keeping vestiges of that seperation as a remembrance to some is okay with me, but I prefer to glory in Christ and the great love and work He has provided, in Him, where we have rest by faith which is the very faith that Abraham had when he looked forward to the promise.
Nope, I don't judge you - I just hope that you aren't holding this up as judgment of others. I've heard it said, "I don't judge you, but the Word of God does" - not true. The imaginations that we have fly in the face of God so many times, and we are quick to bring down lightning like the disciples or shut up the gates of heaven like the Pharisees did. I refuse to let such even sit in my mind, much less will I meditate upon it. God will judge and I will love, for that is the order He has commanded.

thetruthseeker · Oct 6, 2002

Originally posted by raphe

Hi Raphe.

The truth is that the Pharisees never kept Jesus' laws (including the Sabbath) the way that they were intended to be kept. The strictness of the Pharisees was all show, and they actually invented new ways of making the Sabbath day a burden and not a celebration--which it is. If anything, the Pharisees made a disgrace out of the Law of Jesus. They were full of iniquity. The Pharisees represents those Christians who substitute the commandments or traditions of men for the Commandments of Jesus. Sunday, sanctity is one such commandment or tradition of men. Any doctrine that leads or encourages us to forget to keep the Sabbath day or any other Commandment, as Jesus kept it, is also a commandment or tradition of men.

Jesus said the following to the Pharisees:

Matthew 15:8,9 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men .

Good intentions are fine, however there has to be a standard, a consistency in which we live and measure good and bad (truth and error) with--the 10 Commandments, all of the Bible. If we do not acknowledge this standard, we can easily be deceived . This is why there are so many Christian denominations. Who's right?

Ephesians 4:14,15 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine , by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive ;

2 Corinthians 11:13,14 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers , transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light . Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness ; whose end shall be according to their works.

How can we test the spirits? How do we know what the truth is?

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. All of the Bible must be believed in and kept.

Psalms 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

The Hebrew word for word is "dabar"--Commandments.

When we get into the business of relying on the philosophies of man and not the word of Jesus as it is written , we un-necessarily place ourselves on Satan's ground.

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men , after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ .

Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity .

It is one thing to set out to live how Jesus lived and fail (Jesus will have us perservere and the gain victory), and another thing to set out to ignore His examples (including how how He kept the Sabbath). Remember, the entire Bible focuses on Jesus--Genesis through Revelations.

I have a few questions for you, Raphe. Please answer them (I've answered your questions).

What day of the week do you mostly attend church or set aside for Jesus? How do you keep your Sabbath? Do you not work every day?

How did Jesus keep the Sabbath (Saturday)? Who is your example?

Thanks for replying, Raphe.

Your brother in Christ,
TheTruthSeeker

thetruthseeker · Oct 6, 2002

Originally posted by Claudia
raphe,

...about your comment on the sheep and goats:

There are to be but two classes upon the earth, the obedient children of God and the disobedient. Upon one occasion Christ thus set before His hearers the judgment work: "When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory: and before Him shall be gathered all nations: and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: and He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.

"Then shall the King say unto them on His right hand, Come, ye blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was an hungred, and ye gave Me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave Me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took Me in: naked, and ye clothed Me: I was sick, and ye visited Me: I was in prison, and ye came unto Me.

"Then shall the righteous answer Him, saying, Lord, when saw we Thee an hungred, and fed Thee? or thirsty, and gave Thee drink? When saw we Thee a stranger and took Thee in? or naked, and clothed Thee? or when saw we Thee sick, or in prison, and came unto Thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto Me" (Matthew 25:31-40

Thus Christ identifies His interest with that of suffering humanity. Every attention given to His children He considers done to Himself personally. Those who claim modern sanctification would have come boastingly forward, saying, "Lord, Lord, do You not know us? Have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works?" The people have described, who make these pretentious claims, apparently weaving Jesus into all their doings, fitly represent those who claim modern sanctification but who are at war with the law of God. Christ calls them workers of iniquity because they are deceivers, having on the garments of righteousness to hide the deformity of their characters, the inward wickedness of their unholy hearts.

To think that just feeding the hungry, clothing the naked etc is all that God requires of you, because of the sheep and goats illustration... is to misunderstand it's meaning. Jesus talked about wolves in sheep's clothing... He was merely saying that in the Judgment it will be shown who are REALLY God's children and who are not- but just pretending to be "sheep"...

Jesus was showing there are only two classes of people on earth, as far as God is concerned, the obedient and the disobedient.

One has to realize that all throughout the New Testament we are told of many OTHER things that will keep us out of heaven... such as:

1Cor:6:9: Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10: Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Should we look at the "Law of love" and the sheep and goats illustration alone and conclude that it doesnt matter if you are a drunkard because those verses dont mention drunkards being excluded from heaven? I would hope not. One needs to look at the entire Word of God. One especially should study the Book of Revelation and read about the dire warning about receiving the Mark of the Beast. Obviously there is more to this than just making sure we feed the hungry and clothe the naked.

Claudia

Hi Claudia,

Thank you for really putting out the verses in proper context.

Your brother in Christ,
TheTruthSeeker

Rafael · Oct 7, 2002

I honor no day as sabbath. I thought that would be clear. Saturday and Sunday are the same to me, as I've repeated that my rest is in Christ and not in a day.
We have entirely different ideas about what disobedience is. You think a person is disobedient for not observing Saturday as sabbath, and I do not for the reasons I've given in scripture - a very plain and significant difference of doctrine.
I didn't say that just feeding and clothing, etc. is all God requires of anyone. I said that was what He asks about when He returns. Read into it what you will or not, but that is what He asks about.
You have not answered any of the scriptures I've wanted to see really countered, but have went on to try and teach me about everything else that you think would condemn me in God's word for not keeping your day as a sabbath. Put your faith in a day if you will, but I will put mine in Jesus.

Claudia · Oct 7, 2002

 

raphe,

I probably wont say anything else after this, because I feel like it will just become more like an arguement and I don't feel that we should argue back and forth.

But you said that you will put your faith in Jesus instead of in a day. That sounds great at first glance. But are we showing true faith in Jesus if we neglect to do what He commands us to do? Jesus said this:

Luke Chapter 6

46: And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

47: Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
48: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
49: But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

 

 

 

Claudia · Oct 7, 2002

Truth Seeker,

 

...you are welcome 

 

Claudia

thetruthseeker · Oct 7, 2002

Originally posted by raphe
I honor no day as sabbath. I thought that would be clear. Saturday and Sunday are the same to me, as I've repeated that my rest is in Christ and not in a day.
We have entirely different ideas about what disobedience is. You think a person is disobedient for not observing Saturday as sabbath, and I do not for the reasons I've given in scripture - a very plain and significant difference of doctrine.
I didn't say that just feeding and clothing, etc. is all God requires of anyone. I said that was what He asks about when He returns. Read into it what you will or not, but that is what He asks about.
You have not answered any of the scriptures I've wanted to see really countered, but have went on to try and teach me about everything else that you think would condemn me in God's word for not keeping your day as a sabbath. Put your faith in a day if you will, but I will put mine in Jesus.

Hi Raphe.

Jesus is the focus of the entire Bible.

How did Jesus keep the Sabbath? What day did He keep as the Sabbath? Aren't we supposed to be like Jesus our ultimate example? Aren't we supposed to live as Jesus lived? Did Jesus ask us to keep Sunday or everyday as the Sabbath?

Please answer with Biblical verses--in context.

You said that I did not answer your take on scriptures. What texts are you referring to? Supply them and I will answer.

With all do respect, Raphe, if you at this point are still feeling condemned, it may very well be the work of the Holy Spirit, via the word of God. Perhaps He is prompting you to accept ALL of the Bible and not some of the Bible along with human philosophy. If Jesus did not say it or do it, then it is human philosophy.

I said earlier that I worship Jesus everyday. However, the Sabbath is one full day that I set aside for Jesus, no distractions but Jesus . Why? This is what Jesus asked human beings to do in His word (the Bible) and I want to do ALL that He asks because I love Him with all my heart, mind and soul.

Give it a try, Raphe. You'll love it.

Your brother in Christ,
TheTruthSeeker

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