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What day is the Sabbath?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by thetruthseeker, Sep 26, 2002.

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  1. thetruthseeker

    thetruthseeker Member

    225
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    Hi OldShepherd,

    Claudia is right. The early Christians as well as Christians who lived centuries after Jesus' death, observed the Sabbath day. Please have a look at the link below.

    http://www.tagnet.org/llt/sabcen.htm

    Thanks,
    TheTruthSeeker
     
  2. thetruthseeker

    thetruthseeker Member

    225
    +1
    Hi OldSheperd

    The Sabbath did not have to be stated by Paul or James (both were Jews) because this was not the problem of the time. Please keep in mind that one of the reasons why Jesus was crucified by the Jews was because He did not, in the eyes of the Jews, keep the Sabbath strictly enough.

    Luke 13:11-17 And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself. And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity. And he laid his hands on her: and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God. And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because that Jesus had healed on the sabbath day , and said unto the people, There are six days in which men ought to work : in them therefore come and be healed, and not on the sabbath day. The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth] from the stall, and lead him away to watering? And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day ? And when he had said these things, all his adversaries were ashamed: and all the people rejoiced for all the glorious things that were done by him.

    Mark 3:4-6 And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days , or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace. And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other. And the Pharisees went forth, and straightway took counsel with the Herodians against him, how they might destroy him .

    Of course, the opposing Jews of Jesus' (as well as Paul's and James') time did not keep the Sabbath in the Spirit, but it was observed. Jesus' disciples kept the Sabbath. The Jews are and have always been known for the Sabbath.

    Ezekiel 20:20 And hallow my sabbaths ; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God.

    The Sabbath day is the sign, seal or mark of God on His people.


    Thanks OldShepherd,
    TheTruthSeeker
     
  3. Rafael

    Rafael Only time enough for love

    +302
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    Jesus had not died yet and become the final fulfilment of the law when He said those things in Luke 13:11-17 and Mark 3:4-6, but I see that none of the scriptures showing His precedence and work as a better sacrifice for sins and a better sabbath and rest from our labors are being recognized.

    Yes, Paul did have to chastise the early church for going back into the bondage of the law on many occasions. The letter to the Galatians is but one.

    As yet, no answer to Col. 2:16.

    Faith is vital to our walk, and that, in Him our Lord Jesus, to whom every knee shall bow and tongue confess to the glory of the Father. He is our rest and the Lord of the sabbath - our Sabbath by faith.

    Galatians 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
    Galatians 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
    4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
    5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons
    Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
    Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

    Gal 4:3 - we--the Jews primarily, and inclusively the Gentiles also. For the "we" in Gal_4:5 plainly refers to both Jew and Gentile believers. The Jews in their bondage to the law of Moses, as the representative people of the world, include all mankind virtually amenable to God's law (Rom_2:14-15; compare Note, see on Gal_3:13; Gal_3:23). Even the Gentiles were under "bondage," and in a state of discipline suitable to nonage, till Christ came as the Emancipator.
     
  4. thetruthseeker

    thetruthseeker Member

    225
    +1
    Hi Raphe,



    Paul in Hebrews 4 uses the Sabbath day (Saturday-a day of rest) as a symbol of our final rest (the promise land-heaven, a sinless place ).


    Regarding Colossians 2:16,17. The weekly Sabbath cannot be viewed as a shadow because it existed before there was any sin in this world and it will be kept in heaven.

    Isaiah 66:22,23 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

    The Sabbath day has nothing to do with the sacrifice of Jesus but all to do with our relationship with Him. The Sabbath day is man's (the Sabbath was made for man) weekly date with our merciful, loving, longsuffering creator of the heavens and earth--Jesus Christ.

    Exodus 20:8-11 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it .


    Let's look at more of Colossians for a fuller context.

    Colossians 2:14-17 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross ; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

    The writing of the ordinances (ceremonial laws--lamb sacrificing, etc...) were just that--the handwriting of Moses. Remember that it was Jesus who wrote the 10 Commandments. The ceremonial laws were nailed to the cross not the 10 Commandments. Again, the Sabbath was instituted before there was any sin. Perhaps this is one reason we are told to remember it.

    Regarding being under the Law , what does this mean? Remember that all the texts that you supplied were written by Paul who:

    Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath , and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

    What does being under the Law mean? What does being under grace mean? This is very straightforward. A man is under the Law if he lives in the flesh. A man is under grace if he lives in the Spirit. So, saying that someone is "under the Law" is the same as saying that he is condemned.

    Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    What does living in the flesh mean?

    Romans 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh : for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity ; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

    Living in the flesh means living in iniquity (lawlessness--living outside of the commandments of Jesus). It also means trying to aquire salvation through works (salvation is a gift), going through the motions without the help of the Spirit.

    You see there is no govenment or order if there is no law. We're talking about the new law. Many Christians are confused about the 10 Commandments because they don't understand what the Old and New Covenants are. For one, the Old and New Covenant are not laws. They are agreements pertaining to the Law.

    Law - Ceremonial laws (laws of Moses) = 10 Commandments (and health laws) .


    Old Covenant: Exodus 24:7,8 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people : and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient . And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.

    New Covenant: Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days , saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;


    It is the Holy Spirit that writes "laws" into the heart.

    Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us , who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    Thanks for replying, raphe.
    TheTruthSeeker
     
  5. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    No, you and Claudia are both wrong! Go read your own link. For the first century,it quoted a few scriptures and very brief out-of-context quotes from only two historic writings. Josephus and Philo, both Jews. Had you bothered to read my post I quoted the writings of the first century Christians themselves.

    And for the second century no historical documents whatsoever, just the opinions of 19th and 20th century "scholars."

    I didn't bother going beyond the second century. You have posted absolutely no proof at all what the Christians, not Jews, of the first and second century practiced concerning the Sabbath, I did!
     
  6. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    There are several things incorrect about this response. First, most of the epistles are written to Gentile Christian communities and if they were required to observe the Sabbath, then someone, at sometime, must tell them that requirement. It is never mentioned in the N.T.. In fact the very first church wide council, Acts 15, imposed only four requirements, not the Mosaic, but the Noachian laws, on Gentile Christians. And Sabbath keeping was [size=]not[/size] included.
    Second, there is no mention of Jesus’ Sabbath breaking, at Jesus’ trial before the Sanhedrin or Pilate.
    Third, it ignores the very clear, scriptural, fact that the Sabbath was [size=]not[/size] given to the Gentiles, but [size=]only[/size] to the children of Israel.


    Exod 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
    17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
    זאקונראהיהו
     
  7. Rafael

    Rafael Only time enough for love

    +302
    Christian
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    Truthseeker..
    I appreciate much of what you said and agree on some of it. The law (ceremonial) came only because of transgression:

    Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
    Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: {for that: or, in whom}
    13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

    The ten commandments were the result of the covenant made with God and the ceremonial laws were a result of the idol worship of the golden calf and breaking of God's covenant. From then on they were to sacrifice day and night and they gave up their rights to be a nation of priests to all men. (EXodus 19:6) Now, only the Levites would be priests to Israel since they were the only tribe to not sin while Moses received the ten commandments.
    The ten commandments cannot be broken if one abides in Christ who is our sabbath and the fulfillment of the ten commandments. Abiding in Christ and His love is our rest, again.

    What you said about walking in the Spirit and living in the flesh, I agree, but I do understand the difference between the ceremonial laws and the ten commandments. If they are fulfilled in Christ, then abiding in Him will take care of all ten...........not just nine and then hold the sabbath day seperate. You seem to understand how our faith in Jesus is crucial, but seem to hold this sabbath day keeping as revelation when I think of it as a step backwards instead of forwards into liberty and freedom that He says He has accomplished.
    Even Paul got into a sharp dispute with Peter for letting the Jews keep old practises from the law, like circumcision and sabbath days. I still feel you have taken the Col. 2:16 verse and forced it into what you already want to believe...........and I don't see why trusting the Lord to be our rest, in faith, is an issue to go back over and reestablish before the world. Can God be trying to trick us all and send us to eternal death over a day? I think not.
     
  8. thetruthseeker

    thetruthseeker Member

    225
    +1
    Hi OldShepherd,

    Question: Did Jesus abolish the Sabbath? Did Jesus' disciples abolish the Sabbath? One can only, HONESTLY , say no. Will we be keeping the First day (Sunday) in heaven or the Sabbath (Saturday) in heaven? Isaiah 66:22,23 This is the word of God. Not supposition or human reasoning.

    The Gentiles worshipped with the Jews. Remember, Paul was a Jew and he kept the Sabbath exactly in the way that Jesus did--even after Jesus' death.

    Jesus kept the Sabbath. Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

    Paul kept the Sabbath. Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath .

    Hebrews 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

    Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath , and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks .

    Did Jesus break His own commandments? To say that Jesus broke His own commandments is to blashpheme. The sacrifice of Jesus would not have been accepted by the Father (God the Father) if He did not live a sinless life. Jesus was the that Lamb without blemish. Jesus kept the Sabbath in the way that it was attended to be kept--in the Spirit not the flesh.

    The Sabbath was given to mankind, not only to the Jews.

    Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man , and not man for the sabbath: The original Greek word for man is "anthropos" (literally "a human being"). In other words, the weekly Sabbath was given to all people on this earth. Remember, the Sabbath was created before there even was a Jew.

    However, if we consider ourselves to be Christians, then we are spiritual Jews. All Christians are spiritual Jews or Jews in the Spirit according to Jesus' word--the Bible.

    Galatians 3:28,29 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed , and heirs according to the promise .

    Romans 4:16- 18 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace ; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed ; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations , according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

    Romans 9:7,8 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed .

    Romans 2:28,29 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly ; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly ; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


    Then how was the Sabbath attempted change from Saturday to Sunday made? I say attempted because man has no authority over the laws of Jesus.

    Paul, himself, prophecied that there would be corruption in the church after his death. He even saw the beginning of this.

    Acts 20:29-31 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock . Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things , to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

    2 Thessalonians 2:1-7 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ , and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first , and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work : only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

    Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws : and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

    The Vatican attempted to change "times and laws." The laws in the 10 Commandments (idolatry-2nd Commandment and the Sabbath--4th Commandment, a time law).

    The Catholic Church openly admits that it changed (attempted to change) the Sabbath.

    http://www.immaculateheart.com/MaryOnLine/html/apologetics.html

    This is just one link there are many, many more.

    The Vatican's mark (or sign or seal) of authority is the false Sabbath (Sunday).

    Please note that I am not speaking of individuals here but the system. There are many good people in the Catholic Church. My mother and father were once Catholics.

    Thanks OldShepherd for replying.
    TheTruthSeeker
     
  9. thetruthseeker

    thetruthseeker Member

    225
    +1
    Hi, Raphe.

    I love studying and discussing the Bible. I've got some interesting responses to your post. However, that will have to wait until this evening since I've got to go out with my family. May wife and son are getting anxious.

    Thanks for the dialog and may God bless.
    TheTruthSeeker
     
  10. thetruthseeker

    thetruthseeker Member

    225
    +1


    Thanks Raphe.

    I will quote Colossians again because it appears that I have not presented things clearly enough.

    Colossians 2:14-17 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross ; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days : Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

    The word ordinances is the key to the whole context of the above verses.

    Under the Old Covenant, God's people agreed to keep the Law. The Law under the Old Covenant consisted of various types of laws.

    1) The 10 Commandments -- written by the finger of Jesus on tables of stone and spoken by Jesus (this includes the 4th commandment--the Sabbath)
    2) The Law of Moses -- written by Moses in a book

    The law of Moses consisted of: 3 type of laws--ceremonial (ordinances = ceremonial law), civil and health.

    The ceremonial laws consisted of: yearly sabbaths (day of Pentecost, Passover, feast of the Trumpets, feast of Unleaven Bread, etc..., not all fell regularly on a Saturday), circumcision, animal sacrifices, meat offerings, drink offerings, the priests office. The ceremonial laws are all shadows of things to come because the all point to the remedy of sin--Jesus Christ's death on the cross. The weekly Sabbath day is not a shadow because it was created before sin even existed on earth and it will be kept in heaven--Isaiah 66:22,23.

    When Jesus Christ died on the cross, all ceremonial laws were nailed to the cross (voided). This was signified by an interesting event.

    Mark 15:37,38 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.

    God tore the veil of the temple to signify that the ceremonial laws were now void.

    The civil laws of Moses evidently do not apply to us because they were just that civil laws for Israel in Israel's day. For example, the civil laws of Iraq do not apply to the United States.

    The health laws still apply because we still need good health.

    1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

    Because our bodies are the temple of God, we should not defile it by fornication (wich can bring on diseases), using forbidden drugs like cocaine. We should not eat swine, mice, worms, bats, skunks, centerpedes, maggots, mosquitos, jelly fish, starfish, buzzards etc... they cause diseases. We should not eat animal fat or blood; we know that this develops heart diseases and cancer etc... Leviticus 11, Isaiah 66:17

    The Old Law (10 Commandments, ceremonial laws, civil laws, health laws) - Ceremonial Laws = The New Law (10 Commandments and health laws)

    The Old Covenant was an agreement pertaining to the Old Law (10 Commandments, ceremonial laws, civil laws, health laws). The New Covenant is an agreement pertaining to the New Law (10 Commandments and health laws).

    People who lived long before Abraham, knew about the ceremonial laws, the health laws and the Commandments of Jesus. For example, Able, Noah, Jethro, Melchizedek etc...

    The Ten Commandments that were given to Moses by Jesus was a replica of the Commandments in heaven.

    Exodus 32:15 And Moses turned, and went down from the mount, and the two tables of the testimony were in his hand: the tables were written on both their sides; on the one side and on the other were they written.

    Exodus 25:21 And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee.

    Exodus 31:7 The tabernacle of the congregation, and the ark of the testimony, and the mercy seat that is thereupon, and all the furniture of the tabernacle,

    Revelation 15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:

    Jesus came to fulfil the Law. In other words He came to execute or carry out the Law. He did this by being obedient to the Commandments and finally giving Himself as the ulitmate sacrifice for all of mankind.

    Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law , or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil .

    Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

    Jesus is the end of the law for all Christians. The original Greek word for end is "telos" this means goal, purpose or result. When everything is said and done, the Holy Spirit, by writing the Laws of Jesus in our hearts, should make us like Jesus. Jesus is the our example.

    Regarding the Sabbath:

    James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

    Jesus said:

    Mark 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God , that ye may keep your own tradition .

    John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

    John 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

    Matthew 7:20-23 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them . Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you : depart from me, ye that work iniquity .

    Jesus does not hold anyone accountable for things that they did not know.

    Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

    However:

    James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

    If we keep the Commandments of God through the Spirit we are free.


    James 1:23-25 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty , and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

    Thanks for your reply, Raphe.
    TheTruthSeeker
     
  11. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
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    Faith is not a labor, it is a fruit produced by the Holy Spirit of God in us. It maybe a choice to live by faith or die in doubt and unbelief. 

    What Jesus did for us, He did for everyone. What makes the difference is what He does in us and though us.

    We are to be born again, and a new creation. We not longer have the image of the enemy of God. We take on the image of Jesus, who is the express image of God. That is why we are children of God. We have the mind of Christ, His divine attitude, we are partakers of His divine nature and we have the divine thoughts of God.

    Ephes. 2:10  For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.


     
     
  12. thetruthseeker

    thetruthseeker Member

    225
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    This is a correction.

    It was very late ,last night, when I wrote this.

    Jethro lived after Abraham--he was Moses' father-in-law. Melchizedek, a priest of God, lived in Abraham's time. This was before Aaron's office of priest was established by Moses (under Jesus' direction).

    Thanks.
    TheTruthSeeker
     
  13. thetruthseeker

    thetruthseeker Member

    225
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    Amen!
     
  14. Rafael

    Rafael Only time enough for love

    +302
    Christian
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    You seem to have a narrow view of faith. It has to be exercised and be applied to life with action or it is dead. That action is labor in my book.

    James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
    James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

    Because the ceremonial laws were done away with still doe not nullify the fact that our rest is in the work of Christ and He is our Sabbath rest.

    To think that raising livestock isn't work and then taking time to sacrifice it to God for sins is .........well, it is work and Jesus said to come to Him for rest from this labor. This is I am speaking:

    Matthew 11:28  Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.


    I heard earlier that the sabbath was for men and not God.........well, isn't Jesus enough and the work He did?

    My accepting Jesus as my Sabbath rest is not because I misunderstand the doing away with the ceremonial laws..........Something a child could accept and understand is being made complicated again and for what reason other than pride......??

    If God is love and love is the fulfillment of all things, how can we say salvation is in any thing other than Him - Jesus. Not in a day or counting of time, but in Him. Abide in Him and ye shall rest from you labors..........He is the author and finisher of our faith. In Him all these things are given as gifts.

    Beware the leaven of the Pharisees and the knowledge that puffeth up. Being wise in our own eyes doesn't do anything but lead others astray and promote division and factions (that is obvious today, isn't it?). God is not out to deceive us and has made the whole thing boil down to love and the power it has to transform lives instead of fear and observances of a non-living thing such as a day of 24hours - which is only temporal. Christ is eternal and alive.
     
  15. thetruthseeker

    thetruthseeker Member

    225
    +1
    Hi Raphe,

    Jesus has given us the promise of rest (heaven) because we are the children of the promise (Jews in the Spirit--God's people). Please keep in mind, though, that this promise is conditional. Just as all of Jesus' promises to ancient Israel was conditional. Jesus does not support disobedience.

    The Bible from the Old Testement to the New Testament never nullifies the concept of obedience.

    Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid .

    Regarding my views, they will be narrow, if you consider taking the Bible at its word and doing away with human philosophy, narrow.

    Matthew 7:13,14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

    The Bible has always shown and will show that it is not the majority, but the minority who was right with Jesus--a remnant .

    1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

    Romans 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved :

    Remember, all Christians are spiritual Jews.

    Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God , and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments , that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    God gave us His Holy Spirit to help us to do His will (keep His Commandments).

    Philippians 2:12,13 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed , not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure .

    Philippians 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

    Yes, faith without works is dead. We have to believe or have faith in ALL of what Jesus said in His book--the Bible.

    By the way, what do you think about the the link below?

    http://www.immaculateheart.com/MaryOnLine/html/apologetics.html

    Thanks for your reply, Raphe.
    TheTruthSeeker
     
  16. Claudia

    Claudia New Member

    34
    +0
    "FIRST DAY" BIBLE TEXTS

    Millions of conscientious Christians attend church every Sunday, the first day of the week. They do so believing that somewhere, somehow, someone changed the day of worship. Either that, or they aren't aware that God set aside the seventh day, not the first day of the week as His holy day.

    It is true, a change has been made.

    But by whom? We've discovered that God made the Sabbath during the first week of earth's history. He set it aside as a weekly appointment between man and Himself — as a blessing, a refreshment, a date between two lovers so to speak (God and man).

    If God changed His mind about His special appointment day with us, wouldn't He have recorded so momentous an adjustment in the Bible?

    We've already seen that the beast power claims to have made the change, but what does the Bible say about it?

    There're eight texts in the New Testament that mention the first day of the week. Look at them carefully.

    Matthew 28:1

    Mark 16:1, 2.

    Mark 16:9.

    Luke 24:1.

    John 20:1.

    John 20:19.

    Acts 20:7, 8.

    1 Corinthians 16:1, 2.

    The first five texts simply state that the women came to the sepulcher early on the resurrection morning, and that Jesus rose from the dead.

    Now look up John 20:19 in your Bible. It tells us that Jesus appeared to the disciples later on the resurrection day. It says that the reason they were assembled was "for fear of the Jews."

    They were scared. No telling when the Jews might grab them and treat them to the same fate as their Master. They were hiding.

    They had seen their beloved Master die on Friday. They "returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the Sabbath day according to the commandment." Luke 23:56. And now they're hiding with the doors shut "for fear of the Jews." John 20:19.

    There's no mention of a change.

    The seventh text is Acts 20:7, 8. It says "and upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight. And there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together."

    This was a night meeting — the dark part of the first day of the week. In Bible reckoning, the dark part of the day comes before the light part. Genesis 1:5 — "and God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day." The dark part comes first.

    The Bible reckons a day from sunset to sunset.

    The seventh day begins at sunset Friday evening. The first day of the week begins sunset Saturday evening.

    Paul is together with his friends on the dark part of the first day of the week — Saturday night. This is a farewell get-together. He preached until midnight, when poor Eutychus falls out the window. (Acts 20:9).

    You can imagine how relieved they were when it was found that God spared his life. Verse eleven says that they talked till the break of day and then Paul departed. Verse thirteen shows that Paul spent that Sunday morning traveling to Assos.

    There's nothing here either concerning a change of the Sabbath.

    The New English bible translates this text like this:

    "On the Saturday night, in our assembly for the breaking of bread, Paul, who was to leave the next day, addressed them, and went on speaking until midnight." Acts 20:7.

    The last text mentions the first day of the week in 1 Corinthians 16:1, 2.

    It says — "Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come." Verse three tells that he will bring the offering to Jerusalem.

    As he had done in Galatia, so Paul also requests of those in Corinth to have a collection all ready when he would come to take it to the poor saints in Jerusalem. There's nothing in the text about a church service, but each person is to "lay by him in store." The first day of the week was the best time for the people to set money aside because later in the week it would be spent. That's true today as well! Paul requested this so that "there be no gatherings when I come." 1 Corinthians 16:2.

    At this time the Christians are suffering hardship in Jerusalem and Paul is making his rounds to the churches taking up a collection for them. (We should be that thoughtful today).

    There's nothing in this text either about a change of God's Sabbath to Sunday.

    Concerning worship, what was Paul's custom?

    Here it is.

    "And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three Sabbaths reasoned with them out of the scriptures." Acts 17:2.

    Jesus, as our example also had the custom of attending church on Saturday, the seventh day. (Luke 4:16).

    The great time prophecies of the Bible have all been fulfilled on schedule. Thus the accuracy and dependability of God's word are firmly established.
     
  17. Claudia

    Claudia New Member

    34
    +0
    The Beast power would "think to change times and laws." Daniel 7:25.

     Since the heathen were used to worshipping images, the church ripped out the second commandment which forbids image worship.  They placed images in the churches!  But instead of images of heathen gods, they simply used images of dead saints! 


    The Bible  says that he would "think to change times and laws. Look at this shocking statement from an official decretal:


    "The Pope has power to change times, to abrogate (change) laws, and to dispense with all things, even the precepts of Christ."  Decretal, de Tranlatic Episcop.  


    Instead of leaving only nine commandments, they cut the tenth one in two, so there would still be ten.  Satan had caused the second commandment to be ripped out.  But he wasn't finished.  The leaders changed the fourth one also! The change of the fourth commandment was attempted gradually over a period of time so as not to arouse anyone. 


     The following mind-boggling statements were made by church authorities and are documented.

     "Question : Have you any other way of proving that the church (Roman Catholic) has power to institute festivals of precept?

     "Answer : Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday, the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday, the seventh day, a change for which there is no scriptural authority."  A Doctrinal Catechism, by Stephen Keenan, page 174.

                
     "The Catholic church," declared Cardinal Gibbons, "by virtue of her divine mission changed the day from Saturday to Sunday."

     Again the question is asked of them:

     "Question : Which is the Sabbath day?

     "Answer : Saturday is the Sabbath day
    .
     "Question : Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?

     "Answer : We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 364), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday."  The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, page 50, third edition.

     
     Do church authorities acknowledge that there is no commandment in the Bible for the sanctification of Sunday? They do!  Look at this.


     The Catholic Cardinal Gibbons, in Faith of Our Fathers page 111. said, "You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday.  The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify."


     You see, in the Council of Trent (1545 A.D.), the church leaders ruled that "tradition" is of as great authority as the Bible!  They believed that God had given them the authority to change the Bible any way they pleased.  By "tradition" they meant human teachings.
     Jesus said, "But in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."  Matthew 15:9.


     Just as they had brought images into the church to make it easier for the pagans to come in, they changed the Sabbath of the bible for the same reason. How did it all start?


     The sun was the main god of the heathen even back as far as ancient Babylon.  Since they worshipped the sun on Sunday, the compromising church leaders could see that if they changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, it would accomplish several things.  Number one ... it would separate them from the Jews who were hated by many of the Romans and who, along with Jesus, (Luke 4:16), had been worshipping on Saturday from the beginning (and still do today).  Number two ... it would make it much easier for the pagans to come into the church if the Christians met on the same day that the pagan world did.


     It worked well.  Pagans flocked in by the thousands.  Satan's plan of compromise was doing its baleful work.  The change was attempted gradually but many of the true hearted, loyal Christians were alarmed.  They came to the leaders and wanted to know why they dared tamper with the law of Almighty God!  The church leaders knew this would happen ... and they had an answer ready.  Its a masterpiece.  If a person doesn't know the Bible well it sounds good. The people were told that they were worshipping on Sunday now because Jesus rose from the dead on that day.
     There's not even one verse in the Bible that tells us to do this, but that's what they were told.


     When Emperor Constantine became a Christian, Christianity became the state religion.  As thousands of sun-worshipers flocked into the church, it wasn't long before they had a dominating influence.  Most of his top officials had been sun-worshipers.  Because the Roman government was getting shaky, Constantine consulted with his aides and with the church officials in Rome.


     "What shall we do?  How can we unite and stabilize the government?"
     The counsel of the church leaders was timely.
     "Pass a Sunday law.  Force everyone to cease work and honor Sunday."
     That was it!  It would satisfy the sun-worshipping pagans, and unite pagans, Christians, and the Roman empire as never before.

     

     The year is 321 A.D.  Constantine, yielding to the suggestion of church leaders passes the first Sunday law!  Here it is, straight out of the record:


     "Let all the judges and town people, and the occupation of all trades rest on the venerable day of the sun."  Edict of March 7, 321 A.D. Corpus Juris Civilis Cod., lib. 3, [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth], 12, Lex 3.


     The Christians who would not compromise and dishonor God found themselves in a dilemma.  Satan had worked things around so that you were forced to honor the pagan "day of the sun" or pay the penalty.  Even after the Emperor's Sunday law, many Christians continued to honor and keep holy the seventh-day Sabbath that their Saviour had kept.  God knew what was going on and had predicted that the man of sin would "think to change times and laws."  Satan was about to pull off a world-wide hoax.


     Bibles were forbidden by the priests.  As the years went by, the new generations (without Bibles) would forget all about the Sabbath of the Lord.
     Not only that ... from time to time, great church councils were held.  In nearly every one, the Sabbath which god had given as a memorial of His creation of the world was pressed down and Sunday was exalted.  The pagan festival finally came to be regarded as the "Lords day" (by Pope Sylvester, 314-337 A.D.) and the church leaders pronounced the Bible Sabbath a relic of the Jews, and those who honored it, in obedience to the fourth commandment of God, were pronounced to be "accursed."


     To rip out the commandment right in the center, put in Sunday worship as a counterfeit, take the Bibles away, and command the whole world to accept it ... this was the king of all swindles!


     You see, Satan hates the fourth commandment more than all others because it is the only one that tells who God really is : the Creator of "Heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is."  Exodus 20:11.  You could worship any god and keep the other nine (not kill, steal, etc.) but to keep the fourth commandment you must worship the Creator of the Universe Who Himself rested on the seventh day and commanded His people to do the same in a love relationship with Himself.


     As the centuries went by, the people, with no Bibles forgot about God's Sabbath, and Sunday worship became firmly established.  Many even today are ignorant on the subject.


     The Waldenses,  and some other groups through the dark ages did keep the Bible Sabbath on Saturday like Jesus did ... all down through history.  But they were treated like outlaws.  Whenever they were caught they were tortured to death.  Their mangled corpses show the world the tactics that the beast has always used, force.


     Of God's faithful in the last days it says, "Here is the patience of the saints; here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."  Rev. 14:12.


     In modern times, leaders who know what they are talking about will admit that men changed the Sabbath and not God.  Look at these startling statements from Protestant leaders:


     Methodist  : "The reason we observe the first day instead of the seventh is based on no positive command.  One will search the Scriptures in vain for authority for changing from the seventh day to the first."  Clovis G. Chappell, Ten Rules For Living, page 61.


     Baptist : Harold Lindsell, former editor of Christianity Today, said, "There is nothing in Scripture that requires us to keep Sunday rather than Saturday as a holy day."  Christianity Today November 5, 1976.


     Episcopal : "The Bible commandment says on the seventh day thou shalt rest. That is Saturday.  Nowhere in the Bible is it laid down that worship should be done on Sunday."  Philip Carrington, Toronto Daily Star, October 26, 1949.


     Our Catholic friends know how the change came about.  They say, "We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church in the Council of Laodicea, transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday."  The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, Third edition, page 50.


     The Catholic Press said, "Sunday is a Catholic institution, and its claims to observation can be defended only on Catholic principles . . . From beginning to end of Scripture there is not a single passage that warrants the transfer of weekly public worship from the last day of the week to the first."


     God speaks of the seventh day 126 times in the Old Testament and 62 times in the New.  The first day of the week is mentioned only eight times in the New Testament.  A Catholic priest offered $1000 to anyone who could find one Bible verse to indicate that Sunday is now holy and should be observed instead of the seventh day. No one responded.  Others have done the same, but received no response.


    The Bible says that the beast (little horn power) would "think to change times and laws.)  Daniel 7:25. The second commandment was ripped out and images were brought in.  the fourth commandment is the only one that deals with time.  Look at this shocking announcement:


     "The Pope has power to change times, to abrogate laws, and to dispense with all things, even the precepts of Christ."  "The Pope has authority and has often exercised it, to dispense with the command of Christ."  Decretal,  de Tranlatic Episcop. Cap.


     Satan laid this plot so deep that even many ministers are not aware of it.  Many religious leaders are putting forth desperate efforts to keep the facts on this subject away from the people.  Shocking but true, many ministers have not learned at school anything different than their teachers have learned before them.  Then they teach their congregations what they learned from their teachers.  It is perpetuated for generations.  This is why even your own parents or grandparents may not have understood what God's word teaches about His seventh-day Sabbath.  But when people honestly study the Bible for themselves... their eyes are opened.  Many people take the preachers word and just don't study God's word for themselves.

     
     
  18. thetruthseeker

    thetruthseeker Member

    225
    +1
    Well said, Claudia.

    I've tried to be as gentle as possible on this subject because "religion" is usually very personal to our brothers and sisters in Christ. Especially if it has been taught from generation to generation.

    The real issue, here is love and loyalty.

    In fact the entire Bible hangs on the principle and spirit of love.

    Jesus said the following:

    Matthew 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me : and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

    Matthew 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life .

    Deuteronomy 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live .

    Mark 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength : this is the first commandment.

    John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

    Truth is something that the Holy Spirit reveals in His time.

    My prayer is that those who have read this thread will not harden their hearts about this truth (I cannot boast; I die daily). So that the Holy Spirit will not be inhibited from writing His Law in our hearts (seal His people). Again, Jesus holds people accountable for what they know, not what they did not know.

    Hebrews 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts .

    Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them ;

    James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

    Is there anything in this thread that has not been fully explained or illustrated?

    Thanks.
    TheTruthSeeker
     
  19. Claudia,

    You have given a lot of info about God not changing the day of worship from the Sabbath day. But in your studies have you taken a look at Heb. 4:7-11 and mainly in verse 8, "then would he not aferward have spoken of another day". Heb. 3:1-4:11 we can learn a lot about the day of rest for the people of God.

    God put all things under the feet of his Son Jesus. Eph. 1:22

    Heb.8-9 chps. Let us know that when God gave everything to his Son, and therefore, everything changed as a result.  Remember, we have a New Covenant, the fourth commandment of the law was about the Sabbath day and all was given by Moses, but if you read John 1:17 " For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ".  The New Law is grace and truth, the complete old system of worship has changed, John 4:22-24. vs. 24 "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth". because everything has been given to the Son of God.
     
  20. thetruthseeker

    thetruthseeker Member

    225
    +1
    Hi TBIR,

    May I call you TBIR for short? Not only do we (Claudia and TheTruthSeeker) believe that the Bible is right. We believe that ALL of the Bible is right.

    It appears that you've missed the previous posts that explain what the Old and New Covenants are. They have already been defined. Please take a look at the 4th and the last posting on the link below.

    http://www.christianforums.com/threads/23454-3.html

    This is a quick recap.

    Remember, we are following the Bible and not human philosophy or tradition :

    http://www.immaculateheart.com/MaryOnLine/html/apologetics.html

    These people kept the TRUE Sabbath throughout the centuries following Jesus' death:

    http://www.tagnet.org/llt/sabcen.htm

    Your brother in Christ,
    TheTruthSeeker
     
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