What Created God

[Beaver1]

Many people justify their Christian beliefs by using Aquinas' First Cause theory. This states that something must have started off the Universe. Even the Big Bang, must have been started by something, and that, is God.

But following this line of logic, God must have been created by something or someone. It makes no sense to argue that there must be a God using the First Cause Theory, because God, being part of existence, could well have been created.

And if there was indeed a first cause, why need this be God?

I am a Christian, yet I have a problem with this line of argument.

 

[Grengor]

Many people justify their Christian beliefs by using Aquinas' First Cause theory. This states that something must have started off the Universe. Even the Big Bang, must have been started by something, and that, is God.

But following this line of logic, God must have been created by something or someone. It makes no sense to argue that there must be a God using the First Cause Theory, because God, being part of existence, could well have been created.

And if there was indeed a first cause, why need this be God?

I am a Christian, yet I have a problem with this line of argument.

This is more general apologetics, but eh, what the heck.

Oh it makes sense, we just can't comprehend infinity. But no, it doesn't need to be God, some people just have a personal incredulance against anything else.

 

[LewisWildermuth]

Many people justify their Christian beliefs by using Aquinas' First Cause theory. This states that something must have started off the Universe. Even the Big Bang, must have been started by something, and that, is God.

But following this line of logic, God must have been created by something or someone. It makes no sense to argue that there must be a God using the First Cause Theory, because God, being part of existence, could well have been created.

And if there was indeed a first cause, why need this be God?

I am a Christian, yet I have a problem with this line of argument.

It is bad logic. The existance/non-existance of God is a matter of faith not science. This is why YECism/creation science is constantly under fire from those that take the time to study the universe. They are trying to remove faith and prove something that cannot be proven. While doing this they jump to false conclusions and some outright lie because they feel that they cannot be wrong, their belief in God will crumble because they have removed faith from their lives.

Science can show is the creativity of God but it cannot show us God.

 

[Beaver1]

It is bad logic. The existance/non-existance of God is a matter of faith not science. This is why YECism/creation science is constantly under fire from those that take the time to study the universe. They are trying to remove faith and prove something that cannot be proven. While doing this they jump to false conclusions and some outright lie because they feel that they cannot be wrong, their belief in God will crumble because they have removed faith from their lives.

Science can show is the creativity of God but it cannot show us God.

Agreed. I was not convinced by all the philosophical arguments for God.

And then one morning I woke up and I believed. Kinda funny, I guess!

 

[Lignoba]

This is purely science fiction, but perhaps time in this universe goes through a loop, and as soon as we, or some other more advanced civilization, realizes that the universe is about to end, they create a device to trigger a big bang after the big crunch, and included in this machine is all the equipment necessary to create life. Perhaps this device was named God by them. And that loop continues forever and has been going on throughout the past for an infinite amount of time.

 

[Grengor]

This is purely science fiction, but perhaps time in this universe goes through a loop, and as soon as we, or some other more advanced civilization, realizes that the universe is about to end, they create a device to trigger a big bang after the big crunch, and included in this machine is all the equipment necessary to create life. Perhaps this device was named God by them. And that loop continues forever and has been going on throughout the past for an infinite amount of time.

Or... just maybe... we create God, and God creates us....

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I think that whatever was at the very beginning, is to advanced for us to comprehend. I think, in general, every form of organized religion is nothing more than a guess to mankind's ultimate mystery.

 

[quatona]

What created God

METAGOD.
If God had not been created there wouldn´t be a purpose to His existence, after all.

And if there was indeed a first cause, why need this be God?

The usual response: That´s the very definition of God.
Unfortunately, soon there will follow false equivocations with Biblegod.

 

[Blackmarch]

Many people justify their Christian beliefs by using Aquinas' First Cause theory. This states that something must have started off the Universe. Even the Big Bang, must have been started by something, and that, is God.

But following this line of logic, God must have been created by something or someone. It makes no sense to argue that there must be a God using the First Cause Theory, because God, being part of existence, could well have been created.

And if there was indeed a first cause, why need this be God?

I am a Christian, yet I have a problem with this line of argument.

Don't know... but if anything logically it would be another god.
although this one does not believe in ex nihilo at any point.

 

[CalUWxBill]

Now, the omnipresent and omniscient God should understand his own existence. But, I always wonder if he is like "Who am I". Then when Moses asked for a name he gave up and said "I am who I am" as if he couldn't explain his own existence or possibly there is nothing to explain. But, you'd think he'd be like "hmm, Why do I have all these powers, I think, I speak, and voila my thoughts exist". If he is Biblegod, then he is probably wondering why he thought and spoke satan and evil, he probably wonders why we all don't believe in him, maybe to himself he is so self-evident that he can't imagine his thoughts and words not understanding himself in their created states. It is an odd concept indeed. How did God come to be? Good question, hopefully we get some more interesting replies.

 

[Beaver1]

This is purely science fiction, but perhaps time in this universe goes through a loop, and as soon as we, or some other more advanced civilization, realizes that the universe is about to end, they create a device to trigger a big bang after the big crunch, and included in this machine is all the equipment necessary to create life. Perhaps this device was named God by them. And that loop continues forever and has been going on throughout the past for an infinite amount of time.

Or God is a computer? It has passed through my mind more than once!

 

[LittleNipper]

Many people justify their Christian beliefs by using Aquinas' First Cause theory. This states that something must have started off the Universe. Even the Big Bang, must have been started by something, and that, is God.

But following this line of logic, God must have been created by something or someone. It makes no sense to argue that there must be a God using the First Cause Theory, because God, being part of existence, could well have been created.

And if there was indeed a first cause, why need this be God?

I am a Christian, yet I have a problem with this line of argument.

GOD is a spirit and the designer of the physical.

 

[Blackmarch]

Or God is a computer? It has passed through my mind more than once!

Ever read the well of souls series by chalker?

 

[Code-Monkey]

Many people justify their Christian beliefs by using Aquinas' First Cause theory. This states that something must have started off the Universe. Even the Big Bang, must have been started by something, and that, is God.

But following this line of logic, God must have been created by something or someone. It makes no sense to argue that there must be a God using the First Cause Theory, because God, being part of existence, could well have been created.

And if there was indeed a first cause, why need this be God?

I am a Christian, yet I have a problem with this line of argument.

I haven't seen Aquinas's version of the First Cause Theory. But the accepted version of the first cause argument now reads something like this:

1. Everything that begins has a cause.
2. The universe began.
C. Therefore the universe has a cause.

So in order for you to try to extend this logic and posit that God also necessarily has a creator, you'd first have to have evidence or an argument that suggests that God, himself, began.

When people change up the argument to say simply that everything requires a cause, then they are presenting a strawman version of the argument. It's really quite common that people do that to the first-cause argument if for no other reason than it's far easier to defeat the strawman version than the current version. Even the famous Bertrand Russell attacked the strawman version rather than the currently accepted version when he asked, "Who made God?" And of course then by Russell using the strawman version, it seems to have given others courage in committing the fallacy as well.

 

[*Starlight*]

Maybe the Universe seems as if it began about 13 billion years ago, but it's actually a part of something much bigger (Multiverse?), which has been existing eternally in some form And if God is the totality of all existence, then he must have existed eternally too...

 

[Beaver1]

Ever read the well of souls series by chalker?

No, but now I shall.

 

[Soul_Searcher]

Hi Beaver,

"And if there was indeed a first cause, why need this be God?"

Short answer: because it fits the theology. But then, there are many different views and ideas on just what God is.

 

[JBrian]

Many people justify their Christian beliefs by using Aquinas' First Cause theory. This states that something must have started off the Universe. Even the Big Bang, must have been started by something, and that, is God.

But following this line of logic, God must have been created by something or someone. It makes no sense to argue that there must be a God using the First Cause Theory, because God, being part of existence, could well have been created.

And if there was indeed a first cause, why need this be God?

I am a Christian, yet I have a problem with this line of argument.

This is a common misunderstanding of the law of or argument of causality. The law of causality states that everything that has a beginning needs a cause, not everything needs a cause. Since we argue that the universe has a beginning then the universe needs a cause. However we do not believe that God had a beginning, therefore God does not need a cause.

 

[Beaver1]

This is a common misunderstanding of the law of or argument of causality. The law of causality states that everything that has a beginning needs a cause, not everything needs a cause. Since we argue that the universe has a beginning then the universe needs a cause. However we do not believe that God had a beginning, therefore God does not need a cause.

So in effect all that it argues is that there must be something which caused everything which itself is outside of time.

Odd argument for God. But then again, as has been said earlier, it depends what you see God to be. If God is simply the creator, then I guess it makes sense.

 

[MarinoMan]

From Jurassic Park:

Man creates god.
God creates dinosaurs
Man destroys god
Dinosaurs eat man.

...Woman inherits the earth.