What convinced you the universe alone is all that exists?

[Paulomycin]

Yes.

Then your belief is founded in an "I don't" claim to the negative.

It's impossible to make a claim without stating it.

You're finally starting to catch on. That's why the smart atheists and philosophers are careful to specify the difference between a positive and a negative claim.

You don't know if there is a number that you believe I am thinking of? You don't know your own beliefs?

My answer is a two-part answer, do not attempt to parse or quotemine it:

1. I don't know what number you are thinking of.
2. "I don't know" ≠ the actual number you were allegedly thinking of.

The statement "I don't know" is not a statement of belief in either direction.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Still words in my mouth. I clearly stated they are making that claim. Even when they don't say it outright in so many words, it is clearly implied.

It's impossible to make a claim without stating it.

The fact some of them did not say it in those exact words, does not mean they made a claim without stating it. He just said they did make that claim, so yes, they did 'state it', though not all of them stated it 'in so many words'. So really, you said nothing. You're just being contentious, I think.

 

[Moral Orel]

You don't know if there is a number that you believe I am thinking of? You don't know your own beliefs?

My answer is a two-part answer, do not attempt to parse or quotemine it:

1. I don't know what number you are thinking of.
2. "I don't know" ≠ the actual number you were allegedly thinking of.

The statement "I don't know" is not a statement of belief in either direction.

Well if you don't even know what you believe, I don't know what to tell you.

 

[Moral Orel]

The fact some of them did not say it in those exact words, does not mean they made a claim without stating it. He just said they did make that claim, so yes, they did 'state it', though not all of them stated it 'in so many words'. So really, you said nothing. You're just being contentious, I think.

They "didn't state it outright" but "it is clearly implied" isn't a very firm foundation for your case. What you all feel I mean by something isn't necessarily what I mean.

 

[Paulomycin]

Well if you don't even know what you believe, I don't know what to tell you.

"I don't know" is literally a claim that I don't know. I'm not going to make wild guesses about what number you're thinking about, and what's worse would be to make a statement of belief that's possibly wrong.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Well if you don't even know what you believe, I don't know what to tell you.

You really are trying to be an impediment, not moving the discussion along. You are being disingenuous.

 

[Mark Quayle]

They "didn't state it outright" but "it is clearly implied" isn't a very firm foundation for your case. What you all feel I mean by something isn't necessarily what I mean.

Who asked for a very firm foundation for my case? "Is clearly implied" is a lot more than 'feel'.

 

[Moral Orel]

"I don't know" is literally a claim that I don't know. I'm not going to make wild guesses about what number you're thinking about, and what's worse would be to make a statement of belief that's possibly wrong.

I accepted that you don't know what number, that was part of the point. Now I'm asking about what you believe. There is no number you believe I am thinking of because you don't know what number I'm thinking of.

 

[Paulomycin]

I accepted that you don't know what number, that was part of the point. Now I'm asking about what you believe. There is no number you believe I am thinking of because you don't know what number I'm thinking of.

I'm only a proponent of justified belief. It's that simple, really. If it cannot be justified by evidence or reason, then I can't honestly believe anything.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I accepted that you don't know what number, that was part of the point. Now I'm asking about what you believe. There is no number you believe I am thinking of because you don't know what number I'm thinking of.

You are being vague. You are putting up a question that he cannot answer either way, without you taking it wrong --and that, on purpose. Answer this. Are you asking, 1. If he believes you are thinking of a number? Or 2. That he doesn't know what number you are thinking of? Or 3. That there is no such number as the one you are thinking of? Or 4. As a result of the fact that he doesn't know what number you are thinking of, one of the 3 above is true?

The way you've been answering him the last few days, I think you are pretty obviously taking everything you can of what he says, and trying to turn it around and confuse, rather than to be trying to clear up anything. Paulo has more patience than I do with people like you.

 

[Moral Orel]

I'm only a proponent of justified belief. It's that simple, really. If it cannot be justified by evidence or reason, then I can't honestly believe anything.

I've given no evidence or reason to believe that the number is, for instance, 100. So you can't believe the number is 100, and you therefore don't believe the number is 100. Correct?

 

[Paulomycin]

Then you don't believe that the number is, for instance, 100. Correct?

The statement, "I don't know" is not a claim of justified belief. Again, only justified (objective) belief counts.

 

[Moral Orel]

The statement, "I don't know" is not a claim of justified belief. Again, only justified (objective) belief counts.

I edited for clarity too slowly.

If you can't believe something, then you don't believe something. You don't do things you can't do. There is no reason or evidence to believe the number is, for instance, 100. So you can't and don't believe the number is 100.

 

[Paulomycin]

If you can't believe something, then you don't believe something. You don't do things you can't do. There is no reason or evidence to believe the number is, for instance, 100. So you can't and don't believe the number is 100.

"Don't believe" can be misconstrued as a statement of intent. "Can't" would be either/or and therefore completely different. It could very well be I am looking for justification, but don't know enough information yet.

 

[Moral Orel]

"Don't believe" can be misconstrued as a statement of intent. "Can't" would be either/or and therefore completely different. It could very well be I am looking for justification, but don't know enough information yet.

I can't fly by flapping my arms, so I don't fly by flapping my arms. It's that simple. You don't do things you can't do. You can wait and search for justification, sure, but in the meantime, you don't believe the number is, for instance, 100, correct?

 

[Paulomycin]

I can't fly by flapping my arms, so I don't fly by flapping my arms. It's that simple.

Now you're switching from me reading your mind to you flapping your own arms.

You don't do things you can't do.

I don't do the things I'm justified in believing that I can't do.

You can wait and search for justification, sure, but in the meantime, you don't believe the number is, for instance, 100, correct?

I don't know. <-- It would be an appeal to ignorance fallacy if I drew any conclusion of belief in either direction, for or against, any particular number.

 

[Moral Orel]

Now you're switching from me reading your mind to you flapping your own arms.

Sure, flying, reading minds, shooting laser beams out of your eyes, whatever. Anything and everything you can't do, you also don't do.

I don't do the things I'm justified in believing that I can't do.

Why the distinction? Is there something you can't do that you also do? If not, then anything you can't do you also don't do.

You can wait and search for justification, sure, but in the meantime, you don't believe the number is, for instance, 100, correct?

I don't know. <-- It would be an appeal to ignorance fallacy if I drew any conclusion of belief in either direction, for or against, any particular number.

So you're saying you don't know if you believe the number is 100. You're saying that you aren't privy to knowing your own beliefs.

 

[Paulomycin]

Why the distinction?

Evidence.

So you're saying you don't know if you believe the number is 100. You're saying that you aren't privy to your beliefs.

Ha-haaa. . .words in my mouth.

 

[Moral Orel]

Evidence.

Is there something you can't do that you also do?

Ha-haaa. . .words in my mouth.

Not at all:

You can wait and search for justification, sure, but in the meantime, you don't believe the number is, for instance, 100, correct?

I don't know. <-- It would be an appeal to ignorance fallacy if I drew any conclusion of belief in either direction, for or against, any particular number.

Do you know if you believe the number is, for instance, 100, or don't you?

 

[Larniavc]

"there may be" doesn't sound like you're very convinced.

How could I know? There might be, but I’m yet to be convinced.