What Christians must do to keep their salvation

[EmSw]

The issue is whether one has ever believed. Because Jesus was clear about what occurs WHEN one believes, in Jn 5:24.
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

You have made John 5:24 your proof text, just as you accuse others of doing.
Besides, Judas believed in Him!

John 2 -
1 On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there;
2 and both Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding.
...
11 This beginning of His signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and manifested His glory, and His disciples believed in Him.

Further, in Luke 8:12 Jesus indicated that one is saved by believing. The tense there is aorist, or point in time.

Today is a point in time, so is tomorrow.

In the next verse, Jesus acknowledges those who "believe for a time", yet His only point is that they will not produce fruit. Nothing about loss of salvation that is received in a point in time.

But wasn't 'for a time' also a point in time? How do you know your faith isn't just a faith to produce fruit and not a faith to receive eternal life?

By the way, those who don't produce fruit are cut from the vine and cast into the fire.

One must consider the whole counsel of God in order to understand it. When it is all considered, we learn that the promise of salvation is permanent, but the promise of eternal reward is contingent upon faithfulness and obedience. iow, it is earned, but salvation is never earned, nor deserved.

Eternal reward? Really FG2. Aren't you the one who says 'eternal' is 'eternal'. How are eternal rewards taken away from someone?

And now, are you worthy or not?

Luke 20:35
But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

I'll ask, are you worthy or deserving to obtain that world and the resurrection from the dead?

Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Are you worthy of Jesus? Have you taken up your cross and are following Him? If not, you aren't worthy of Him.

Your vain attempt to over-simplify and mock Biblical teaching is noted. The believer who does those things will suffer far more than just physical death. Oh, btw, we know that Paul turned the incestuous guy over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh (physical death). A quick review of Job reveals what Satan is capable of when allowed to touch a person. John speaks of the "sin unto death" in 1 Jn 5:16, without reference to unbelievers, since he is addressing believers.

So, are there sins NOT unto death? Please list them.

So, why your view minimizes the impact of physical death for the sinning believer, Scripture does not. Heb 10:31 is a warning to believers about God's hand of discipline. The rebellious child of God will not have happiness or contentment in this life, will die miserably, and lose out on reward in eternity.

Man will die physically no matter if he sins or not. To say physical death is punishment for sinning believers is like saying a wet diaper is punishment for urinating newborns.

Care to dismiss all of this as unimportant?

And if I dismiss the Free Grace Movement's beliefs, will I lose my eternal life?

When a wicked man repents, instead of dying for his wickedness, he will live. It's just that simple.

So, he will not die physically, but live? When you find a man who lives physically and not die, I will be the first to contact Ripley's Believe It Or Not.

First, it isn't just about the death. How many ways can one die? How many of all those ways would you prefer to die?

Does man have a choice?

The point is HOW one will die. Under the hand of God's discipline, you really think one would simply and peaceably die in their sleep? Please don't be self deceived. God knows how to discipline. And being removed from the earth through divine discipline is hardly the honorable way to leave.

So all the martyrs of the early church were disciplined with a dishonorable death from God? I'm afraid you have fallen off the cliff into the deep end.

The military has a "dishonorable discharge" for those who didn't complete their tour honorably, and that will follow them throughout their life.

It is similar for the dishonorable believer; he leaves this life in a miserable way, and loses out on reward in heaven.

So a dishonorable discharge from the military will cause a man to lose rewards in this life? Please state such rewards.

The more I hear from the FG Movement, the more I consider them to be on the fringe.

Since it's the ultimate discipline, it's not for the believer, other than the WAY he goes out, but for those remaining, to SEE HOW he went out, and that he did die.

What about Aananias and Sapphira? When God took them home, great fear fell upon the people. iow, the point was made not to make light of the rules.

I believe 1 Cor 11:30 teaches the dangers of disobedience. Does a believer really want to be weak, sickly, or die? Those are real warnings.

What do you consider a dishonorable way to go out? Falling dead in front of other people? Many worthy and loving believers have gone out that way.

So everyone who is weak, sickly and dies are disobedient? Has any leader of the FG Movement gone out weakly and sick? If so, you still follow them?

Do I believe I really want to die? Hmmm...Do I have a choice? Has any leader of the FG Movement actually died? It must be the Divine discipline from God.

So, FG2, have you ever been sick? Do you know why you were dishonoring to God for being sick? Do you think you will die? Maybe you can find a way to honor God and not die.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You have made John 5:24 your proof text, just as you accuse others of doing.
Besides, Judas believed in Him!

Please cite the verse that indicates that he ever did.

John 2 -
1 On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there;
2 and both Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding.
...
11 This beginning of His signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and manifested His glory, and His disciples believed in Him.

OK, count how many He had at that time. He was just starting out. There is no mention of when or how He chose Judas, so your claim is just an opinion, but unsubstantiated from Scripture.

Jesus was very clear in John 13:10 that Judas was not saved.

Today is a point in time, so is tomorrow.

How does this relate to the aorist tense of "believe" in Luke 8:12. Your comment is trying to make the aorist a present.

But wasn't 'for a time' also a point in time?

No. For a time has length. There is no length to a point in time. To illustrate, a video lasts "for a time", while a snapshot is only a point in time.

How do you know your faith isn't just a faith to produce fruit and not a faith to receive eternal life?

What?! Where is there any evidence that there are these 2 kinds of faith? We receive eternal life through faith. And our faith is supposed to produce fruit.

By the way, those who don't produce fruit are cut from the vine and cast into the fire.

OK. Do you understand metaphors?

Eternal reward? Really FG2. Aren't you the one who says 'eternal' is 'eternal'. How are eternal rewards taken away from someone?

They are promised in eternity. For behavior. Show me any verse that SAYS that either salvation or eternal life can be lost based on behavior.

And now, are you worthy or not?

When any believer is "filled with the Spirit" (Eph 5:18) and "walking by means of the Spirit" (Gal 5:16), they ARE worthy.

Conversely, when any believer is "grieving the Spirit" (Eph 4:30), and "quenching the Spirit" (1 Thess 5:19), they AREN'T worthy.

Luke 20:35
But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

I'll ask, are you worthy or deserving to obtain that world and the resurrection from the dead?

The worthiness here obviously refers to the imputed righteousness that ALL believers receive.

Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

See above for those believers who are NOT worthy.

Are you worthy of Jesus? Have you taken up your cross and are following Him? If not, you aren't worthy of Him.

See above for proper explanation and understanding.

So, are there sins NOT unto death? Please list them.

If John had listed them, I could. But he didn't. 1 Jn 5:16

Man will die physically no matter if he sins or not. To say physical death is punishment for sinning believers is like saying a wet diaper is punishment for urinating newborns.

Posting to someone who seems so totally unfamiliar with basic doctrines reminds me of Heb 5:12.

And if I dismiss the Free Grace Movement's beliefs, will I lose my eternal life?

Of course not. Eternal life cannot be lost.

Did Jesus promise the Holy Spirit to be with believers FOREVER? Yes.

Will God deny Himself ever? 2 Tim 2:13 says NO!

Therefore, God CANNOT send any of His children who have the Holy Spirit indwelling them to the lake of fire.

Those who believe that salvation can be lost have to ignore this!

Since the Holy Spirit indwells every believer forever, and Since God cananot deny Himself, please explain how a child of God who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit could spend eternity separated from the love of God?

Does man have a choice?

Regarding God's discipline of the sin unto death, no. Please read 1 Cor 11:30 and see if any of that interests you.

So all the martyrs of the early church were disciplined with a dishonorable death from God?

On the country. Martyrs are rewarded, obviously. Those familiar with the Bible know that.

So a dishonorable discharge from the military will cause a man to lose rewards in this life? Please state such rewards.

I was using an example, which you failed to grasp.

The more I hear from the FG Movement, the more I consider them to be on the fringe.

What does your opinion have to do with anything? It's clear from your posts that your understanding of Scripture is quite limited.

[QUTOE]What do you consider a dishonorable way to go out? Falling dead in front of other people? Many worthy and loving believers have gone out that way.[/QUOTE]
Seems there is no discernment in your understanding of how God disciplines. I'll put it this way: people suffer for lots of reasons. God allowed Job to suffer for a time to prove something to satan. In the end, he was greatly blessed for his faithfulness. But 1 Cor 11:30 is clear enough that many believers suffered because they deserved it, and weren't blessed afterward, as Job was.

So everyone who is weak, sickly and dies are disobedient? Has any leader of the FG Movement gone out weakly and sick? If so, you still follow them?

It's impossible to have a discussion with one so lacking in discernment. Everyone suffers some. The issue is why. God allows suffering to strengthen our faith, etc. He also causes suffering to punish disobedient children of His.

Do I believe I really want to die? Hmmm...Do I have a choice?

Why ask such a stupid question? All humans die, except for several in Scripture plus those taken in the rapture. Just more evidence of lack of discernment.

So, FG2, have you ever been sick? Do you know why you were dishonoring to God for being sick? Do you think you will die? Maybe you can find a way to honor God and not die.

Such absurd sarcasm only demonstrates a poor understanding of Scripture.

 

[Danoh]

What part of Romans 6:14 is not clear?

The implication of which is - once more made obvious by Paul - that the intent of the Law had.not been righteousness, but sin, that it might appear [the problem it is - the] sin [nature problem].

You are just glorying in your flesh. Bad enough - but you would that others do likewise - your glorying is not good - having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Having begun that newness of life in [Christ by what] the Spirit [did the moment you believed the evidence set before you as to Christ's having been put to death in your stead, and raised again that you might be made the righteosness of God in Him] are ye now made perfect by what you do?

 

[extraordinary]

What part of Romans 6:14 is not clear?

In Romans, Paul is writing to Christian churches.
In the space of 8 short verses (Rom 6:15-23) ...
he warns three times that sin results in death (i.e. physical and spiritual)!

Please note:
-- these Christians already knew that truth
-- these Christians were guilty of sinning (slaves of sin, Paul says)

And Christians today think he is only talking about unbelievers in Romans 6!
Such is the teaching and understanding in our churches today.

From elsewhere in this universe of ours (er, of God's) ...

"I have read in the history of the church, that the early church believed that if a person sins, their interpretation was that since there is no more sacrifice for sin, they have lost their salvation, permanently. Under Roman rule, thru various caesars, some were Christian friendly, and some were violently opposed to Christianity, sentencing Christians to death. After a Christian friendly ruler, many became 'christians', but later, a very anti-christian ruler came to power and persecuted those who claimed to be christians. Many christians fell away, renouncing Jesus, returning to the older Roman religions. When the next christian friendly ruler came to power, some who had fallen away, bemoaned their sin, but the church taught that they had sinned and permanently lost their salvation. It was during this time that church leadership discussed the doctrines and decided that a person could repent, and be saved again.

But my point is, at any given time, we know that there are those who have 'snuck in unawares'. People who are not truly born again believers have joined various churches. When a time comes with persecution, and it does not have to be the great tribulation, there will be those who were among us, but are not part of us, who will 'fall away'. I view it as a very sad gleaning of the church.

This is affirmed further by the parable of the seeds."
.

 

[Danoh]

No, he writes in Romans 1 that he is writing to them to establish them in these truths. Towards that he laysout how that God has declared He will give righteouness to anyone able to continue in well-doing, towards proving only His Son was able. That settled, God then offers this righteousness to anyone who takes Him at His word and believes on His Son's righteousness.

You are stuck in Romans 2...

In the latter half of 3 and all the way through chapter 4, He gives that righteousness to those who belieive His Son died for them - in their stead.

In Romans 6-8 he deals with the issue of living the Christian life, on contrast to walking around dead as to said Christian life, enslaved by the flesh.

The contrast is between walking in that newness of life we now possess and walk in the death of the flesh.

Example: the other day, I found myself frustrated about something. At one point, I decided to reflect on its actuall source, in light of the above.

In other words, I decided to "walk in the Spirit" as to what He has said in Romans 6-8 as to the actual mechanics behind my frustration. That is what He says there is to "walk in the Spirit" - to "mind the things of the Spirit" He has revealed in those passages as to how that works.

I realized that my frustration was my being dead as far as my mind goes, that I was frustrated because I was minding the things of the flesh, I was walking in its perspective, in what it focuses on.

See, this was no big sin, as you appear to define sin. In, as most do. They end up with this notion that sin is just what is morally wrong in their understanding of such things. Like the foolishness that, "well, if he were a Christian he wouldn't do this, that, the other..."

Nonsense! If he didn't have those struggles there wouldn't have been a need for Christ's ultimate sacrifice - nor - for HIS empowerment THROUGH THE GRACE you continue to confuse adding Law keeping to.

I have friends just like you. We joke about it sometimes, but the fact is that they are ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS UNSURE! - you guys make a mockery of what cost Christ His life!

If you mean well... well, then, quit trying to earn what He ALONE paid for, as well as quit, trying to maintain what HIS life IN YOU is ALONE able to!

Walk in an understanding of what it means to allow Him to live His life through you, quit trying to will, as well as to run it, yourself. Get out of Romans 7 and get into Romans 8

And quit trying to ram your "fallen FROM GRACE" doctrine down others throats, already - you are just disregarding Romans 14 with every of your posts.

Respectfully,

 

[extraordinary]

No, he writes in Romans 1 that he is writing to them to establish them in these truths.

I did get to the end of your first sentence (see above)!

One of the many spiritual truths Paul teaches in Romans (chapter 6 and elsewhere) is ...
BACs who habitually sin will receive eternal death.

I.E. dese ones are NOT walking in the Spirit or being led by the Spirit, and many etc.

Butski, 'tis all way over your head ... So, Chow, bambino!

P.S. All is not lost ...
Once you are promoted to a level above Newbie trainee you'll be just fine!
However, you will need to be in possession of an NT to study from!
.

 

[extraordinary]

.
Here's the deal for all of us to understand ...

I've known a guy for 30 years who was born into a Spirit-filled family:
his father was a small-time pastor, his mother was an evangelist (because she was once shown hell).

As a teenager, the son was called to evangelize (for a few years, or more?), but he refused.

After all these years, he still can only believe, "Jesus is the Son of God".
I said to him, "I have more than 70 verses that teach Jesus is God."
He said, "I don't care if you have 700 verses!"

Spiritual Truth is all nonsense unless you have spiritual revelation about it.

If you read my spiritual testimony, 99% of you wouldn't believe it.
Because you have too much UNBELIEF (in some spiritual things).
All due to Satan and the historically-deceived church.
Hint: The church was always supposed to be identical to the NT church.
The whole world wouldda been evangelized as soon as they had boats
large enough to go to N.A., Aussieland, etc. lol

So, keep on keepin' on ... nothing I can do about it.

Think I'll start preachin' to da dogs and cats in the hood.
At least dey have good ears to hear with. Yup.
.

 

[nobdysfool]

You better quit patting yourself on the back, before you break your arm. Seriously.

 

[EmSw]

Please cite the verse that indicates that he ever did.

OK, count how many He had at that time. He was just starting out. There is no mention of when or how He chose Judas, so your claim is just an opinion, but unsubstantiated from Scripture.

They were chosen at the same time. You need to study before making such a claim.

Luke 6 -
12 And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God.
13 And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;
14 Simon, (whom he also named Peter,) and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew,
15 Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called Zelotes,
16 And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor.

 

[FreeGrace2]

They were chosen at the same time. You need to study before making such a claim.

Luke 6 -
12 And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God.
13 And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;
14 Simon, (whom he also named Peter,) and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew,
15 Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called Zelotes,
16 And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor.

Yes, Jesus did choose Judas. Does that mean Judas was saved? No. The passage you've provided says nothing about Judas believing. Because there aren't any passages that say that Judas believed in Him. Since Judas was ultimately possessed by satan, proves that he wasn't.

 

[The Lorax]

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord’, shall enter the kingdom of heaven (*)
but he who does the will of My Father in heaven … I will declare to them,
‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ ” (Matt 7:21-23)
• those who do the will of Father God shall enter the kingdom of heaven (*)
• those who refuse to do the will of Father God are practicing lawlessness
(*) Note-A below shows that Matt 7:21-23 is talking about eternal life!

Okay, what is Father God’s will?

Some NT verses concerning doing God’s will
• “… as bondservants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart …” (Ephesians 6:6)
• “… that you may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.” (Colossians 4:12)
• “For this is the will of God, your sanctification … each of you should know how to possess
his own vessel in sanctification and honor, not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not
know God … For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness. Therefore he who rejects
this does not reject man, but God, who has also given us His Holy Spirit.” (1 Thessalonians 4:1-8)
• “For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God,
you may receive the promise …” (Hebrews 10:36-38)
• “And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.” (1 John 2:17)

The amazing thing is … because the Scriptures are all inspired by God …
ALL commands and instructions given to NT believers are about doing the will of God.

Examples of God’s will for believers – and doing them is necessary for eternal life
All of the 52 Scriptures below refer specifically to how eternal life can be attained or lost:
• Believe in Jesus Christ and His gospel
John 3:16, John 3:36, John 5:24, Acts 4:12, Acts 16:31, Rom 10:9-10, etc.
• Repent of your sins … Luke 13:3-5, 2 Pet 3:9
• Know God, follow God, be led by the Spirit … John 17:3, John 10:27-28, Rom 8:13-14, Luke 9:23-25
• Obey Jesus’ commandments … Matt 19:16-17, Rom 6:16, Heb 5:9, Rev 22:14-15
• Practice righteousness, i.e. to be righteous in God’s eyes …
Matt 25:45-46, 1 Cor 6:9-10, Rom 6:12-16, Rom 2:5-11, Rom 14:17-18
• Forgive men’s sins and tresspasses against you … Matt 6:14-15, Mark 11:25-26, Matt 18:21-35
• Do not be a slave of sin, do not sin …
Rom 6:16, James 1:14-16, Rev 21:8, Mark 9:43-48, 1 Cor 6:9-10,
Gal 5:19-21, Eph 5:3-6, 2 Pet 2:20-22, Rev 21:27, Rev 22:14-15
• Do not be carnally minded, do not live according to the flesh, crucify the flesh …
Rom 8:1-8, Rom 8:13-14, Gal 6:7-8, Gal 5:19-21
• Lose your worldly life, hate your life in this world, deny yourself …
John 12:25, Mark 8:34-37, Luke 9:23-25, Matt 16:24-26, Luke 14:26-33
• Confess your continuing sins, and repent of them … 2 Cor 7:8-10, 1 John 1:9
• Be holy … Heb 12:14-15, Matt 5:8, Col 1:22-23
• Do not desire to be rich, do not love money … 1 Tim 6:9-10, 1 Tim 6:17-19
• Be an overcomer … Rev 2:10-11, Rev 3:5, Rev 21:7-8
• Endure in your faith until the end of your life …Matt 10:22, Rev 2:10-11, 1 Tim 4:16,
1 Cor 15:1-2, Jude 1:20-21, Heb 10:36-39, 1 Tim 6:9-12, Phil 2:12-16, 1 Pet 1:5-9, Heb 2:1-4

Note: for Rev 3:5 and Rev 21:27 please see Note-B, and for Rev 3:12 and Rev 22:14-15 see Note-C.

31 of the 52 Scriptures above refer specifically to how eternal life can be LOST.
These 31 passages apply to Christians just as well as anyone else!

Note: there are also multitudes of Scriptures that reveal God’s will for us
that do not specifically allude to eternal life or death.

Note-A
Entering the kingdom of God appears to be the opposite of being cast into hell …
• “And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom
of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire” (Mark 9:47)
Inheriting the kingdom appears to be for the righteous who gain eternal life …
• “Come, you (righteous) blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you
from the foundation of the world … inasmuch as you (unrighteous) did not do it to one
of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.And these (unrighteous) will go away into
everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (Matt 25:34-46)
So bottom line, we consider entering the kingdom of God/heaven as gaining eternal life.

Note-B
“And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.” (Rev 20:15)

Note-C
“But there shall by no means enter it (the New Jerusalem) anything that defiles, or causes an
abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.” (Rev 21:27)

Interesting note
3 of the many “sin list” passages in the NT contain murder in their long lists of sins.
The following condemnation of murder just serves as an example for all of the sins in the lists.
“… you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.” (1 John 3:15)
.

When is ones name written in the Lamb's book of life? That's my first question.

 

[extraordinary]

When is ones name written in the Lamb's book of life? That's my first question.

Quickly, may I ask: Does it matter? ... Because Scripture says it can be removed, right?
.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Quickly, may I ask: Does it matter? ... Because Scripture says it can be removed, right?
.

No, not right. What verse says it can be removed? Here are the verses that you're probably thinking of:

Psalm 69:28
[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]May they be blotted out of the book of life
[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]And may they not be recorded with the righteous.

Scholars believe that every person without exception is recorded in the "book of life". Those who die apart without possession of eternal life have their names removed.

Revelation 3:5
‘He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

While on the surface, it appears to be a not too thinly veiled threat to remove eternal life from an unfaithful believer, in reality, John is using a figure of speech, called "litotes", which is an assertion that undersates the reality being referred to. An example is found in Heb 6:10; "God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown toward His name". Which means God will definitely remember all your hard work.

So, back to Rev 3:5, which means, "If you are faithful to Me to the end, I will honor you by magnifying your name!" This is seen in the phrase "I will confess your name before My Father and before His angels".

Discernment is the key.

 

[extraordinary]

Revelation 3:5
‘He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments;
and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and
I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

While on the surface, it appears to be a not too thinly veiled threat to remove eternal life
from an unfaithful believer, in reality, John is --- BLAH BLAH BLAH

Lately, I have been trying very hard indeed to believe that God is not playing word games with us!

Consider the poor ignorant believer who has managed to actually OWN a Bible,
and the FG2 comes along and tells him: your Bible really does NOT mean what it clearly says!

Thou art so misguided that thou dost not believeth
ALL OF THE MANY VERSES ABOUT THE NEED FOR BACs TO BE OVERCOMERS!

Thou just merrily goes on rejecting them all.
.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Lately, I have been trying very hard indeed to believe that God is not playing word games with us!

Consider the poor ignorant believer who has managed to actually OWN a Bible,
and FG2 comes along and tells him: your Bible really does NOT mean what it clearly says!

Thou art so misguided that thou dost not believeth
ALL OF THE MANY VERSES ABOUT THE NEED FOR BACs TO BE OVERCOMERS!

Thou just merrily goes on rejecting them all.
.

While on the surface, it appears to be a not too thinly veiled threat to remove eternal life from an unfaithful believer, in reality, John is using a figure of speech, called "litotes", which is an assertion that undersates the reality being referred to. An example is found in Heb 6:10; "God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown toward His name". Which means God will definitely remember all your hard work.

So, back to Rev 3:5, which means, "If you are faithful to Me to the end, I will honor you by magnifying your name!" This is seen in the phrase "I will confess your name before My Father and before His angels".

Discernment is the key.

 

[extraordinary]

So, back to Rev 3:5, which means,
"If you are faithful to Me to the end, I will honor you by magnifying your name!"
This is seen in the phrase "I will confess your name before My Father and before His angels".

Thou hast stated endless times that one needeth NOT (endure) be faithful until the end to be saved,
i.e. to have der name magnified and confessed and ...

Thus, and thereforeth ... those who are NOT faithful to Him to da end will be saved,
and will also have der name magnified and confessed and ...

Dum de dum dum ... dumb!
P.S. Thanks!
.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Thou hast stated endless times that one needeth NOT (endure) be faithful until the end to be saved,
i.e. to have der name magnified and confessed and ...

Thus, and thereforeth ... those who are NOT faithful to Him to da end will be saved,
and will also have der name magnified and confessed and ...

Dum de dum dum ... dumb!
P.S. Thanks!
.

So, back to Rev 3:5, which means, "If you are faithful to Me to the end, I will honor you by magnifying your name!" This is seen in the phrase "I will confess your name before My Father and before His angels".

Discernment is the key.

 

[Harry3142]

I have found that whenever someone tells me that I must obey a long list of verses or else lose my salvation, the entire sentence is, "You must obey all of these verses as I interpret them in order to be saved." It's an all-too-common ploy of some radical churches and sects whose ultimate agenda is to have a rank-and-file membership whose mindset has been manipulated to the point at which they believe that they must mindlessly obey all that their leaders tell them in order to earn their own salvation.

I call this tactic 'exploitative theology'. Its purpose is not the enlightenment of others for God, but instead the attainment of power and authority over others for themselves. The knight-works-exegesis argument is one of their favorite tools, as it gives them the facade of agreeing with Scripture. However, if their targets would take the time to look up the passages where those verses were originally found, they would realize that Scripture itself has been abused in order to have it seem to support an agenda that is actually opposed to its teachings.

 

[extraordinary]

It's an all-too-common ploy of some radical churches and sects whose ultimate agenda is to have a rank-and-file membership whose mindset has been manipulated to the point at which they believe that they must mindlessly obey all that their leaders tell them in order to earn their own salvation.

Yes, Harry baby, thou has it right ...

Thou must mindlessly obey all that I tell thou in order to earn yer own salvation!
And don't furrget it.

Regards, da #1 purveyor of all radical churches and sects on da planet.
But with me only a Newbie trainee, thou canst imagine what my leaders are like. WOW!

 

[Harry3142]

extraordinary-

I had to chuckle as I read your reply. It was amusing. However, I have encountered in the 'real world' quite a few socalled Christian leaders who insisted that unless I obeyed them unquestioningly and without reservation I would not be among the saved. Their message was that in order to be right with God, I needed to have their approval of my actions.

Scripture itself is clear in its description of what a Christian's proper behavior will include and exclude. Those who have genuinely accepted Jesus Christ will follow the dictates of this behavior; those who are only paying him lipservice will not:

So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what yuo want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. (Galatians 5:16-26,NIV)

Can we say that an infant who is born without the ability to breathe, without a regular heartbeat, or without brain activity is a successful live birth? Of course we can't. In the same manner we cannot say that someone has been spiritually regenerated as a Christian if that person has not had his sinful nature 'reined in' and replaced with a new nature (the fruit of the Spirit). On the contrary, St. Paul gives us clear warning in the next chapter that it will be the motivations of this new nature which will be the 'yardstick' for determining the genuineness of our acceptance of Christ's sacrifice of atonement:

Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers. (Galatians 6:7-10,NIV)

Both Judaism and Islam emphasize laws which their people are to obey. Christianity teaches that the superficial obedience to laws is not nearly enough. Our entire nature needs to be subdued, and then a new nature implanted within us by the Spirit. With this new nature we can do what pleases God, due to the underlying motivations which culminate in our actions pleasing him. However, without this new nature our best conduct can only be described as a macabre caricature of what a Christian's conduct should entail.