What Christians must do to keep their salvation

extraordinary

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“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord’, shall enter the kingdom of heaven (*)
but he who does the will of My Father in heaven … I will declare to them,
‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ ” (Matt 7:21-23)

• those who do the will of Father God shall enter the kingdom of heaven (*)
• those who refuse to do the will of Father God are practicing lawlessness
(*) Note-A below shows that Matt 7:21-23 is talking about eternal life!

Okay, what is Father God’s will?

Some NT verses concerning doing God’s will
• “… as bondservants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart …” (Ephesians 6:6)
• “… that you may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.” (Colossians 4:12)
• “For this is the will of God, your sanctification … each of you should know how to possess
his own vessel in sanctification and honor, not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not
know God … For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness. Therefore he who rejects
this does not reject man, but God, who has also given us His Holy Spirit.” (1 Thessalonians 4:1-8)
• “For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God,
you may receive the promise …” (Hebrews 10:36-38)
• “And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.” (1 John 2:17)


The amazing thing is … because the Scriptures are all inspired by God …
ALL commands and instructions given to NT believers are about doing the will of God.

Examples of God’s will for believers – and doing them is necessary for eternal life
All of the 52 Scriptures below refer specifically to how eternal life can be attained or lost:
• Believe in Jesus Christ and His gospel
John 3:16, John 3:36, John 5:24, Acts 4:12, Acts 16:31, Rom 10:9-10, etc.
• Repent of your sins … Luke 13:3-5, 2 Pet 3:9
• Know God, follow God, be led by the Spirit … John 17:3, John 10:27-28, Rom 8:13-14, Luke 9:23-25
• Obey Jesus’ commandments … Matt 19:16-17, Rom 6:16, Heb 5:9, Rev 22:14-15
• Practice righteousness, i.e. to be righteous in God’s eyes …
Matt 25:45-46, 1 Cor 6:9-10, Rom 6:12-16, Rom 2:5-11, Rom 14:17-18
• Forgive men’s sins and tresspasses against you … Matt 6:14-15, Mark 11:25-26, Matt 18:21-35
• Do not be a slave of sin, do not sin …
Rom 6:16, James 1:14-16, Rev 21:8, Mark 9:43-48, 1 Cor 6:9-10,
Gal 5:19-21, Eph 5:3-6, 2 Pet 2:20-22, Rev 21:27, Rev 22:14-15
• Do not be carnally minded, do not live according to the flesh, crucify the flesh …
Rom 8:1-8, Rom 8:13-14, Gal 6:7-8, Gal 5:19-21
• Lose your worldly life, hate your life in this world, deny yourself …
John 12:25, Mark 8:34-37, Luke 9:23-25, Matt 16:24-26, Luke 14:26-33
• Confess your continuing sins, and repent of them … 2 Cor 7:8-10, 1 John 1:9
• Be holy … Heb 12:14-15, Matt 5:8, Col 1:22-23
• Do not desire to be rich, do not love money … 1 Tim 6:9-10, 1 Tim 6:17-19
• Be an overcomer … Rev 2:10-11, Rev 3:5, Rev 21:7-8
• Endure in your faith until the end of your life …Matt 10:22, Rev 2:10-11, 1 Tim 4:16,
1 Cor 15:1-2, Jude 1:20-21, Heb 10:36-39, 1 Tim 6:9-12, Phil 2:12-16, 1 Pet 1:5-9, Heb 2:1-4

Note: for Rev 3:5 and Rev 21:27 please see Note-B,
and for Rev 3:12 and Rev 22:14-15 see Note-C.

31 of the 52 Scriptures above refer specifically to how eternal life can be LOST.
These 31 passages apply to Christians just as well as anyone else!


Note: there are also multitudes of Scriptures that reveal God’s will for us
that do not specifically allude to eternal life or death.

Note-A
Entering the kingdom of God appears to be the opposite of being cast into hell …
• “And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom
of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire” (Mark 9:47)

Inheriting the kingdom appears to be for the righteous who gain eternal life …
• “Come, you (righteous) blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you
from the foundation of the world … inasmuch as you (unrighteous) did not do it to one
of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.And these (unrighteous) will go away into
everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (Matt 25:34-46)

So bottom line, we consider entering the kingdom of God/heaven as gaining eternal life.

Note-B

“And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.” (Rev 20:15)

Note-C

“But there shall by no means enter it (the New Jerusalem) anything that defiles, or causes an
abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.” (Rev 21:27)


Interesting note
3 of the many “sin list” passages in the NT contain murder in their long lists of sins.
The following condemnation of murder just serves as an example for all of the sins in the lists.
“… you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.” (1 John 3:15)
.
 

extraordinary

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The 31 Scriptures mentioned in the OP refer specifically to how eternal life can be LOST.
These 31 passages apply to Christians just as well as anyone else!
Matt 6:14-15
Matt 10:22
Matt 16:24-26
Matt 18:21-35
Matt 19:16-17
Matt 25:45-46
Mark 8:34-37
Mark 9:43-48
Luke 9:23-25
John 12:25
Rom 2:5-11
Rom 6:12-16
Rom 8:1-8
Rom 8:13-14
1 Cor 6:9-10
1 Cor 15:1-2
Gal 5:19-21
Gal 6:7-8
Eph 5:3-6
1 Tim 4:16
1 Tim 6:9-10
Heb 5:9
Heb 10:36-39
Heb 12:14-15
James 1:14-16
2 Pet 2:20-22
Rev 2:10-11
Rev 3:5
Rev 21:8
Rev 21:27
Rev 22:14-15
.
 
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FreeGrace2

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The 31 Scriptures mentioned in the OP refer specifically to how eternal life can be LOST.
These 31 passages apply to Christians just as well as anyone else!
Matt 6:14-15
Matt 10:22
Matt 16:24-26
Matt 18:21-35
Matt 19:16-17
Matt 25:45-46
Mark 8:34-37
Mark 9:43-48
Luke 9:23-25
John 12:25
Rom 2:5-11
Rom 6:12-16
Rom 8:1-8
Rom 8:13-14
1 Cor 6:9-10
1 Cor 15:1-2
Gal 5:19-21
Gal 6:7-8
Eph 5:3-6
1 Tim 4:16
1 Tim 6:9-10
Heb 5:9
Heb 10:36-39
Heb 12:14-15
James 1:14-16
2 Pet 2:20-22
Rev 2:10-11
Rev 3:5
Rev 21:8
Rev 21:27
Rev 22:14-15
.
Not any of these verses says that eternal life can be lost. Amazing that anyone would even try to make such a claim.

Fact: Salvation is in God's hands, totally. He does the saving, and He does the keeping.

There ARE very specific verses that clearly teach that those saved cannot be lost.

Consider Eph 1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise

OK, everyone who believes is sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit.

Now, consider Eph 4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Now, all who believe ARE sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit, and for what? For the "day of redemption". How is that not clear? Maybe EO would like to explain how the day of redemption must mean something other than the what it says here?

Also consider Rom 8:38,39 - 38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Now, does the phrase "things present" exclude anything? No. Does the phrase "things to come" exclude anything? Again, no.

EO has no excuse at all for claiming that salvation can be lost. Nothing in the present or future can change any believer's final destiny.

If that's not enough, let's consider Jesus' very words: John 10:28,29 - 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30“I and the Father are one.”

Nowhere in these verses does Jesus say anything about one's faith having to continue in order to continue to have eternal life. Once given, which is at the moment of faith, it is ETERNAL and cannot perish. And no one can snatch a believer out of the Father's hand. The term "no one" would obviously include any person, even the believer.

Again, there is no Scripture that STATES that eternal life can be lost, but a number of verses that very clearly state the security of each believer.
 
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extraordinary

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I just tacked a copy of the 31 passages on my dart board.

With my back to the board, I threw a dart and it pierced the following one:

“Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved,
he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.
Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”;
for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown,
brings forth death. Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.” (James 1:12-16)

P.S. I can easily prove that "the crown of life" refers to salvation, eternal life, etc.

P.S. You do know that we have many Scriptures about sin producing eternal death, right?
You know ... Rom 5:12, Rom 6:23, etc.

The passage above is talking about every human being on the planet, which includes BACs.
But, I must admit, it's just another boring WARNING about ALL habitual sinners going to hell.
If someone doesn't care for this passage, I'd be happy to throw another dart.
.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I just tacked a copy of the 31 passages on my dart board.

With my back to the board, I threw a dart and it pierced the following one:

“Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved,
he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.
Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”;
for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown,
brings forth death. Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.” (James 1:12-16)

P.S. I can easily prove that "the crown of life" refers to salvation, eternal life, etc.

I challenge that claim. In fact, the crown of life is one of a number of rewards for faithful and obedient service.

P.S. You do know that we have many Scriptures about sin producing eternal death, right?
Absolutely wrong!

You know ... Rom 5:12, Rom 6:23, etc.
Eternal death is what happens at the end of time, at the Great White Throne judgment. Sin produces physical death as well as spiritual death. Discernment distinguishes when the Bible speaks of physical vs spiritual death.

The passage above is talking about every human being on the planet, which includes BACs.
But, I must admit, it's just another boring WARNING about ALL habitual sinners going to hell.
I'm still waiting for your answer to my question about how many sins did Christ die for and pay for? And please provide evidence from Scripture for your answer. Thanks.

If someone doesn't care for this passage, I'd be happy to throw another dart.
.
Throw all the darts in your quiver. Doesn't matter. None of the verses say what you claim.

You've confused the warnings of loss of eternal reward with loss of salvation.

Please go back to my previous post and refute it point by point, if that's possible, using Scripture in the process.

Note: I used Scripture that guarantees that all who have believed are sealed in Christ and cannot be snatched from the Father's hand, nor can anhthing present or future separate believers from the love of Christ.

So, good luck.
 
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extraordinary

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I challenge that claim.
Several times, I have shocked you by answering your challenges, but you never admit your errors.
The last one was just a few days ago:
I shocked you by quoting Revelation where it says all liars go into the lake of fire.

I will gladly answer questions, challenges, etc. from others, but not from you.
.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Several times, I have shocked you by answering your challenges, but you never admit your errors.
First, there was no shock. I'm "shocked" that you thought so. ^_^

Second, there were no errors to admit. I've given you solid Scripture, for which I've seen no contrary explanation or refutation of my understanding of those Scriptures.

The last one was just a few days ago:
I shocked you by quoting Revelation where it says all liars go into the lake of fire.
Dang. I'm sure Jesus Christ died for all sins. Ya think He missed a few?

I will gladly answer questions, challenges, etc. from others, but not from you.
.
Right. And we all know why. Exactly why. ;)
 
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drstevej

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What Christians must do to keep their salvation

Jesus said, "It is finished."
Paul said, "Whom He justified them He also glorified."

OJSG (Once Justified, Surely Glorified)
 
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FreeGrace2

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I think you're both right. You can rest secure in your salvation, received by grace, NOTHING can separate you from His love or pluck you from His hand. But you are free to leave whenever you like. I just wonder why anyone would. :confused:
Let's not confuse leaving the faith (1 Tim 4:1) with losing salvation. They aren't equivalent.

Because God puts the Holy Spirit within each believer, and Jesus promised that He would never leave us (Jn 14:6), and God cannot deny Himself (2 Tim 2:13), it is clear that no one who ever believed will ever be under any condemnation (Jn 3:18).

The OP won't deal with that fact.
 
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stenerson

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Let's not confuse leaving the faith (1 Tim 4:1) with losing salvation. They aren't equivalent.

Because God puts the Holy Spirit within each believer, and Jesus promised that He would never leave us (Jn 14:6), and God cannot deny Himself (2 Tim 2:13), it is clear that no one who ever believed will ever be under any condemnation (Jn 3:18).

The OP won't deal with that fact.

Why not? We're not robots.. God doesn't make us believe and seek Him. Why should He make us keep believing and trusting Him? Who's to say the believers in Heaven won't change their minds, or that the unfallen angels won't join up with Satan in the future? After all, God has given all His creatures a free will that they can exercise at any point they choose.
As much as I abhor extraordinary's error and misinterpretation of the bible, I respect the fact that he takes Arminianism to it's logical conclusion. :idea:
 
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South Bound

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“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord’, shall enter the kingdom of heaven (*)
but he who does the will of My Father in heaven … I will declare to them,
‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ ” (Matt 7:21-23)

• those who do the will of Father God shall enter the kingdom of heaven (*)
• those who refuse to do the will of Father God are practicing lawlessness
(*) Note-A below shows that Matt 7:21-23 is talking about eternal life!

Okay, what is Father God’s will?

Some NT verses concerning doing God’s will
• “… as bondservants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart …” (Ephesians 6:6)
• “… that you may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.” (Colossians 4:12)
• “For this is the will of God, your sanctification … each of you should know how to possess
his own vessel in sanctification and honor, not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not
know God … For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness. Therefore he who rejects
this does not reject man, but God, who has also given us His Holy Spirit.” (1 Thessalonians 4:1-8)
• “For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God,
you may receive the promise …” (Hebrews 10:36-38)
• “And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.” (1 John 2:17)


The amazing thing is … because the Scriptures are all inspired by God …
ALL commands and instructions given to NT believers are about doing the will of God.

Examples of God’s will for believers – and doing them is necessary for eternal life
All of the 52 Scriptures below refer specifically to how eternal life can be attained or lost:
• Believe in Jesus Christ and His gospel
John 3:16, John 3:36, John 5:24, Acts 4:12, Acts 16:31, Rom 10:9-10, etc.
• Repent of your sins … Luke 13:3-5, 2 Pet 3:9
• Know God, follow God, be led by the Spirit … John 17:3, John 10:27-28, Rom 8:13-14, Luke 9:23-25
• Obey Jesus’ commandments … Matt 19:16-17, Rom 6:16, Heb 5:9, Rev 22:14-15
• Practice righteousness, i.e. to be righteous in God’s eyes …
Matt 25:45-46, 1 Cor 6:9-10, Rom 6:12-16, Rom 2:5-11, Rom 14:17-18
• Forgive men’s sins and tresspasses against you … Matt 6:14-15, Mark 11:25-26, Matt 18:21-35
• Do not be a slave of sin, do not sin …
Rom 6:16, James 1:14-16, Rev 21:8, Mark 9:43-48, 1 Cor 6:9-10,
Gal 5:19-21, Eph 5:3-6, 2 Pet 2:20-22, Rev 21:27, Rev 22:14-15
• Do not be carnally minded, do not live according to the flesh, crucify the flesh …
Rom 8:1-8, Rom 8:13-14, Gal 6:7-8, Gal 5:19-21
• Lose your worldly life, hate your life in this world, deny yourself …
John 12:25, Mark 8:34-37, Luke 9:23-25, Matt 16:24-26, Luke 14:26-33
• Confess your continuing sins, and repent of them … 2 Cor 7:8-10, 1 John 1:9
• Be holy … Heb 12:14-15, Matt 5:8, Col 1:22-23
• Do not desire to be rich, do not love money … 1 Tim 6:9-10, 1 Tim 6:17-19
• Be an overcomer … Rev 2:10-11, Rev 3:5, Rev 21:7-8
• Endure in your faith until the end of your life …Matt 10:22, Rev 2:10-11, 1 Tim 4:16,
1 Cor 15:1-2, Jude 1:20-21, Heb 10:36-39, 1 Tim 6:9-12, Phil 2:12-16, 1 Pet 1:5-9, Heb 2:1-4

Note: for Rev 3:5 and Rev 21:27 please see Note-B,
and for Rev 3:12 and Rev 22:14-15 see Note-C.

31 of the 52 Scriptures above refer specifically to how eternal life can be LOST.
These 31 passages apply to Christians just as well as anyone else!


Note: there are also multitudes of Scriptures that reveal God’s will for us
that do not specifically allude to eternal life or death.

Note-A
Entering the kingdom of God appears to be the opposite of being cast into hell …
• “And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom
of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire” (Mark 9:47)

Inheriting the kingdom appears to be for the righteous who gain eternal life …
• “Come, you (righteous) blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you
from the foundation of the world … inasmuch as you (unrighteous) did not do it to one
of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.And these (unrighteous) will go away into
everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (Matt 25:34-46)

So bottom line, we consider entering the kingdom of God/heaven as gaining eternal life.

Note-B

“And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.” (Rev 20:15)

Note-C

“But there shall by no means enter it (the New Jerusalem) anything that defiles, or causes an
abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.” (Rev 21:27)


Interesting note
3 of the many “sin list” passages in the NT contain murder in their long lists of sins.
The following condemnation of murder just serves as an example for all of the sins in the lists.
“… you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.” (1 John 3:15)
.

No thank you. I trust Christ to keep my salvation.

If I was capable of doing the things you say I have to do, then I wouldn't have needed Christ to save me in the first place.

If you believe it's up to you to "keep" your salvation, then what's the difference between "keeping" your salvation and earning it?
 
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EmSw

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Let's not confuse leaving the faith (1 Tim 4:1) with losing salvation. They aren't equivalent.

Because God puts the Holy Spirit within each believer, and Jesus promised that He would never leave us (Jn 14:6), and God cannot deny Himself (2 Tim 2:13), it is clear that no one who ever believed will ever be under any condemnation (Jn 3:18).

The OP won't deal with that fact.

If a man leaves the faith, what does he possess which will save him? Surely you aren't saying faithless men can be saved. If so, please provide passages which state thus.

Numbers 15:31
Because he has despised the word of the Lord and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt will be on him.

Perhaps you think completely cut off doesn't mean completely cut off.

Romans 11

20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.


Here we see unbelieving Israel were cut off from the root. Yet, we stand by faith. How is it that one who leaves the faith will not be cut off also? Paul tells us not to be conceited, but fear. A conceited man is one who has a very high opinion of himself; he is vain.

If one does not think he will be cut off for his unbelief is one who thinks he is above God's word, and that the truth within does not apply to him, for he is above it. But, God says to fear and continue in His kindness or else he will be cut off also.

Ezekiel 18:14

But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.

This is the way of the Lord. Will you say as the children of Israel said to the Lord - ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ 'Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right' (v. 25)?

I will ask you the same question God asked, 'when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does the abominations of a wicked man, will he live?'

It seems you are saying he will live. Yet God says for his treachery, he will die. What will prevail in this situation - your truth or God's truth? Whose ways are right - yours or God's?
 
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extraordinary

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If a man leaves the faith, what does he possess which will save him?
Surely you (the FG2) aren't saying faithless men can be saved.
Perhaps you (the FG2) think completely cut off doesn't mean completely cut off.
Just happened to have these babies lyin' around, waitin' to be used @ the appropriate time ...

Heb 2:1-4 • “Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard,
lest we drift away. For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast,
and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward,
how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation”

Heb 3:6 • “but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are
if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.”

Heb 3:12-15 • “Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief
in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,”
lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers
of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, while it is said:
“Today, if you will hear His voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”

Heb 3:17-19 • “Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned,
whose corpses fell in the wilderness? And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His
rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.”
As in the OT, God reveals that sin, i.e. disobedience, is considered to be unbelief.

Heb 4:1,11• “Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest
any of you seem to have come short of it … Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest,
lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience (as in Heb 3:17-19 above).

Heb 6:4-8 • “For it is impossible for those who … have become partakers of the Holy Spirit
… if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again
for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.”
Falling away from salvation, which they received when they first repented.

Heb 10:26-31 • “For if we keep on sinning willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth,
there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,but a certain fearful expectation of judgment,
… For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay”, says the Lord.
… It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

Heb 10:36-39 • “For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God,
you may receive the promise: ‘For yet a little while, and He who is coming will come
and will not tarry. Now the just shall live by faith; but if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.’ But we are not of those who draw back to perdition …”
In this last bit, Paul is speaking hopefully with mucho edification, encouragement, and exhortation!

Heb 12:14-17 • “Pursue … holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: looking carefully
lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble,
and by this many become defiled; lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau,
who for one morsel of food sold his birthright.For you know that afterward, when he wanted
to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance …”
Augusto Perez affirms that one can reach a point whereupon repentance is no longer possible.
Gee, what fun that would be!
.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Why not? We're not robots..
Of course not. But that's irrelevant. We neither save ourselves, or "unsave" ourselves. God saves, and God keeps. That's His promise.

God doesn't make us believe and seek Him.
True.

Why should He make us keep believing and trusting Him?
He doesn't, of course. So, what's your point?

Who's to say the believers in Heaven won't change their minds, or that the unfallen angels won't join up with Satan in the future? After all, God has given all His creatures a free will that they can exercise at any point they choose.
No one's to say. These things haven't been revealed.

As much as I abhor extraordinary's error and misinterpretation of the bible, I respect the fact that he takes Arminianism to it's logical conclusion. :idea:
Maybe so, but that's because Arminianism's logical conclusion is wrong, just as he is. :)

PS: I abhor his error as much.
 
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FreeGrace2

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If a man leaves the faith, what does he possess which will save him? Surely you aren't saying faithless men can be saved. If so, please provide passages which state thus.
To answer the question, man possesses nothing in and of himself that will save him. All of salvation belongs to God alone. He saves, and He keeps. We can do nothing that will save us. Meaning, our action of believing does not save us. But we know from 1 Cor 1:21 that God is pleased to save those who believe.

So, back to the question, if a person leaves the faith, and even the Bible acknowledges this (1 Tim 4:1), what happens? He loses out on all temporal blessings and eternal rewards, and will fall into the hands of the living God (Heb 10:31) for discipline (12:5).

Numbers 15:31
Because he has despised the word of the Lord and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt will be on him.

Perhaps you think completely cut off doesn't mean completely cut off.
I believe it refers to physical death, or as John phrased it, "the sin unto death" in 1 John 5:16. What happened to Ananias and his wife, and many who "slept" in 1 Cor 11:30.

Romans 11
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
I believe this verse speaks of God's use of the person. In the OT, God chose Israel to maintain and defend His Word, and they failed. So He set them aside for Gentiles during the age of the church.

Here we see unbelieving Israel were cut off from the root. Yet, we stand by faith. How is it that one who leaves the faith will not be cut off also? Paul tells us not to be conceited, but fear. A conceited man is one who has a very high opinion of himself; he is vain.
The fear would be one of ceasing to be useful to the Lord. Not needed. While that may not impress you any, the Jews considered themselves "elect" and would have been highly shocked at the very idea that God wouldn't use them.

If one does not think he will be cut off for his unbelief is one who thinks he is above God's word, and that the truth within does not apply to him, for he is above it. But, God says to fear and continue in His kindness or else he will be cut off also.
There is no reason to equate being "cut off" with loss of salvation.


Ezekiel 18:14

But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.

This is the way of the Lord. Will you say as the children of Israel said to the Lord - ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ 'Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right' (v. 25)?

I will ask you the same question God asked, 'when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does the abominations of a wicked man, will he live?'

It seems you are saying he will live.
These verses speak of physical death as the ultimate discipline from God.

Yet God says for his treachery, he will die. What will prevail in this situation - your truth or God's truth? Whose ways are right - yours or God's?
God's ways are always right. And with proper discernment, one recognizes His ways. He has promised eternal life to anyone who believes. And He keeps His promise; every time.
 
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EmSw

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To answer the question, man possesses nothing in and of himself that will save him. All of salvation belongs to God alone. He saves, and He keeps. We can do nothing that will save us. Meaning, our action of believing does not save us. But we know from 1 Cor 1:21 that God is pleased to save those who believe.

Again, I will ask FG2, can a faithless man be saved? If so, please provide passages which state such.

So, back to the question, if a person leaves the faith, and even the Bible acknowledges this (1 Tim 4:1), what happens? He loses out on all temporal blessings and eternal rewards, and will fall into the hands of the living God (Heb 10:31) for discipline (12:5).

To be honest here, I think your OSAS-colored glasses have fogged up. The man in 1 Timothy 4:1 falls away from God and starts 'paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons'. Jesus said you can't serve two masters. Either one serves God, Who alone has life, or he serves deceitful spirits and demons, whom most certainly will bring death.

Is this your belief - men are saved by the doctrines of demons?

I believe it refers to physical death, or as John phrased it, "the sin unto death" in 1 John 5:16. What happened to Ananias and his wife, and many who "slept" in 1 Cor 11:30.

Physical death? Really FG2? All men, righteous and wicked, will suffer physical death.

So, a man who despises the word of God and breaks His commandment will only suffer physical death? Shoot, a man who loves the word of God and keeps His commandment will suffer physical death also.

I don't think God jokes around when He gives warnings in His word, do you?

Sleep is the word Jesus used for physical death.

I believe this verse speaks of God's use of the person. In the OT, God chose Israel to maintain and defend His Word, and they failed. So He set them aside for Gentiles during the age of the church.

This has nothing to do with the passages from Ezekiel 18. It had nothing to do with a person's use, but rather, it had everything to do with a person's righteousness and wickedness. Please read the whole chapter and see for yourself.

Let's look at the following verses:
21 “But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.


Notice in verse 21, God said 'he will surely live; he shall not die'. According to your belief, this man should never taste physical death, since you believe this is only talking about physical death.

The fear would be one of ceasing to be useful to the Lord. Not needed. While that may not impress you any, the Jews considered themselves "elect" and would have been highly shocked at the very idea that God wouldn't use them.

Actually if you read it correctly, the fear would be of one being cut off from the root. Being cut off from the root is being cut off from the life source.

I think they would be even more shocked if they considered themselves cut off from the life-giving root of God. This is the same reason we should fear, and not think we are so important God will not do that to us.

There is no reason to equate being "cut off" with loss of salvation.

How will one be saved if he is cut off from the root, which gives life?

These verses speak of physical death as the ultimate discipline from God.

All men will die a physical death; how is that the ultimate discipline of God?

Discipline is used to straighten man up; to keep him from falling into sin. It is used to teach a man how he should live. So, I ask, how can man use this so-called ultimate discipline from God to live as he should if he is physically dead?

God's ways are always right. And with proper discernment, one recognizes His ways. He has promised eternal life to anyone who believes. And He keeps His promise; every time.

I'll let you in on something - eternal life is eternal whether man is involved or not. When Judas hung himself, eternal life was still eternal. It's not what man does or doesn't do that makes it eternal; it's eternal because God, Who is Life Itself, is eternal. If man chooses to fall away from the faith and fails to participate in this life, it is still eternal.

If a righteous man turns from his righteousness, and commits iniquity and does according to the abominations of the wicked and dies (and not physically), eternal life is still eternal.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Again, I will ask FG2, can a faithless man be saved? If so, please provide passages which state such.
The issue is whether one has ever believed. Because Jesus was clear about what occurs WHEN one believes, in Jn 5:24.
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Further, in Luke 8:12 Jesus indicated that one is saved by believing. The tense there is aorist, or point in time.

In the next verse, Jesus acknowledges those who "believe for a time", yet His only point is that they will not produce fruit. Nothing about loss of salvation that is received in a point in time.

One must consider the whole counsel of God in order to understand it. When it is all considered, we learn that the promise of salvation is permanent, but the promise of eternal reward is contingent upon faithfulness and obedience. iow, it is earned, but salvation is never earned, nor deserved.

To be honest here, I think your OSAS-colored glasses have fogged up.
Truth never fogs up, and I proclaim OSAS because the Bibles does so.

The man in 1 Timothy 4:1 falls away from God and starts 'paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons'. Jesus said you can't serve two masters. Either one serves God, Who alone has life, or he serves deceitful spirits and demons, whom most certainly will bring death. [/QUTOE]
Sure. Death is the result of sin. Rom 6:23

Is this your belief - men are saved by the doctrines of demons?
A very pitiful question. No, absolutely not. You've just twisted my words into nonsense.

Men are saved by believing the gospel promise. And God keeps the one who has believed, regardless of "things present or things to come" per Rom 8:38-39.

Physical death? Really FG2? All men, righteous and wicked, will suffer physical death.
It's the theme throughout Scripture, beginning in the garden. Sin results in death, both spiritual and physical. But through faith, man is regenerated, becomes a new creature, referring to a new spiritual nature, which cannot die, because, first, the Holy Spirit indwells that part of the believer, and second, the Holy Spirit was promised to believers to be with us forever. And it should be clear that the Holy Spirit isn't going to be with any believer in the lake of fire.

So, a man who despises the word of God and breaks His commandment will only suffer physical death? Shoot, a man who loves the word of God and keeps His commandment will suffer physical death also.
Your vain attempt to over-simplify and mock Biblical teaching is noted. The believer who does those things will suffer far more than just physical death. Oh, btw, we know that Paul turned the incestuous guy over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh (physical death). A quick review of Job reveals what Satan is capable of when allowed to touch a person. John speaks of the "sin unto death" in 1 Jn 5:16, without reference to unbelievers, since he is addressing believers.

So, why your view minimizes the impact of physical death for the sinning believer, Scripture does not. Heb 10:31 is a warning to believers about God's hand of discipline. The rebellious child of God will not have happiness or contentment in this life, will die miserably, and lose out on reward in eternity.

Care to dismiss all of this as unimportant?

I don't think God jokes around when He gives warnings in His word, do you?
Of course not. See above.

Sleep is the word Jesus used for physical death.
I'm disappointed in this reply which is in reference to 1 Cor 11:30, where the obvious context is sinning, rebellious believers who were abusing Communion, and any discerning believer would realize that Paul was explaining that some had died the sin unto death for their behavior. He certainly wasn't just making a comment about some believers having died from natural causes. The context makes that very clear. He was explaining WHY some had died.

Let's look at the following verses:
21 “But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.


Notice in verse 21, God said 'he will surely live; he shall not die'. According to your belief, this man should never taste physical death, since you believe this is only talking about physical death.
No, this is not "according to my belief". The entire context is about one's life on earth. Nothing about physically living forever. The verses are so obvious that I'm surprised that I have to explain it to anyone.

When a wicked man repents, instead of dying for his wickedness, he will live. It's just that simple.

Actually if you read it correctly, the fear would be of one being cut off from the root. Being cut off from the root is being cut off from the life source.
When one compares the whole counsel of God, one realizes that salvation is a guarantee, not based on any works or behavior, but on God's grace.

So your view of Rom 11 is wrong based on that.

I think they would be even more shocked if they considered themselves cut off from the life-giving root of God. This is the same reason we should fear, and not think we are so important God will not do that to us.
My view hasn't been refuted and remains. Being cut off by God refers to being set aside as useful to God. Nothing here about loss of salvation, if the whole counsel of God is considered.

How will one be saved if he is cut off from the root, which gives life?
The only way anyone will be saved: by faith in Christ.

All men will die a physical death; how is that the ultimate discipline of God?
First, it isn't just about the death. How many ways can one die? How many of all those ways would you prefer to die?

The point is HOW one will die. Under the hand of God's discipline, you really think one would simply and peaceably die in their sleep? Please don't be self deceived. God knows how to discipline. And being removed from the earth through divine discipline is hardly the honorable way to leave.

The military has a "dishonorable discharge" for those who didn't complete their tour honorably, and that will follow them throughout their life.

It is similar for the dishonorable believer; he leaves this life in a miserable way, and loses out on reward in heaven.

Discipline is used to straighten man up; to keep him from falling into sin. It is used to teach a man how he should live. So, I ask, how can man use this so-called ultimate discipline from God to live as he should if he is physically dead?
Since it's the ultimate discipline, it's not for the believer, other than the WAY he goes out, but for those remaining, to SEE HOW he went out, and that he did die.

What about Aananias and Sapphira? When God took them home, great fear fell upon the people. iow, the point was made not to make light of the rules.

I believe 1 Cor 11:30 teaches the dangers of disobedience. Does a believer really want to be weak, sickly, or die? Those are real warnings.

I'll let you in on something - eternal life is eternal whether man is involved or not. When Judas hung himself, eternal life was still eternal. It's not what man does or doesn't do that makes it eternal; it's eternal because God, Who is Life Itself, is eternal. If man chooses to fall away from the faith and fails to participate in this life, it is still eternal.
So let's apply this to one who possesses eternal life. We know the Bible calls the lake of fire the second death. Please explain eternal LIFE existing in the second DEATH.

If a righteous man turns from his righteousness, and commits iniquity and does according to the abominations of the wicked and dies (and not physically), eternal life is still eternal.
You've misunderstood the verse. The death here is God's method of removing the sinful believer from this life.

Please explain how eternal LIFE can exist in the second DEATH.
 
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daviddub

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To answer the question, man possesses nothing in and of himself that will save him. All of salvation belongs to God alone. He saves, and He keeps. We can do nothing that will save us. Meaning, our action of believing does not save us. But we know from 1 Cor 1:21 that God is pleased to save those who believe.

You say that we can do nothing that will save us, it seems a strange thing to be commanded to save yourselves from this untoward generation, when we can do nothing to the purpose at all.

You say this of faith "our action of believing does not save us, but we know from 1 Cor 1:21 that God is pleased to save those who believe.
But will you not say, that "our works do not save us. but we know from Jam 1:14+ that God is pleased to save those whose faith works?


There is no reason to equate being "cut off" with loss of salvation.

None? What other words, then, might be equated with loss of salvation? Now, I might see you saying you see it otherwise, but certainly you can see why "cut off" might be seen to signify loss of salvation.

These verses speak of physical death as the ultimate discipline from God.
Eze 18 absolutely does not speak of physical death.

Ez 18: it is a terrible stretch to believe this means physical death. God says the righteous will live, and the wicked will die. Concerning physical death, every righteous man who we have record of died physically, except for Enoch and Elijah. So this is just absolutely not true, if it speaks of physical death. Whereas you say that the wicked will die physically (per this scripture), as distinct from the righteous, you are seriously abusing this text to protect your point of view.

Now, furthermore, you run into greater issue when you continue on, as to verse 21- But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die." Is this so, men who turn from all their sins and keep all God's statutes shall not die physically? 22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? 24 But when the righteous turns away from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
To be clear, read the whole chapter, particularly vv21-32, and there is no way you can believe that he's talking about physical death. If so, none of the men which you revere as holy men were righteous, all of them died physically, save two. But God calls some men throughout scripture righteous, and just, and perfect, and holy, and pleasing to God (whereas God is not pleased with the wicked), all but two of whom died physically, that is, the righteous.
 
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You say that we can do nothing that will save us, it seems a strange thing to be commanded to save yourselves from this untoward generation, when we can do nothing to the purpose at all.
The difference should be obvious. To save oneself from this untoward generation is not at all the same as being saved from the lake of fire. Saving oneself from this untoward generation means to separate oneself from the world. iow, the process of sanctification delivers/rescues (saves) us from the evil influence of this untoward generation.

You say this of faith "our action of believing does not save us, but we know from 1 Cor 1:21 that God is pleased to save those who believe.
But will you not say, that "our works do not save us. but we know from Jam 1:14+ that God is pleased to save those whose faith works?
I think 1 Cor 1:21 is clear enough. It is God who saves. But He saves only believers. How can one think that verse means that we are saving ourselves by our own faith? iow, it is God's plan alone to save those who believe. In fact, that is His promise. So, when one believes, and God keeps His promise to save him, is the believer's act of belief saving him, or is God saving him?

None? What other words, then, might be equated with loss of salvation?
There aren't any words because the Bible doesn't teach that salvation can be lost. :)

Now, I might see you saying you see it otherwise, but certainly you can see why "cut off" might be seen to signify loss of salvation.
I think it would be a mighty weak "might be", since the Bible doesn't teach it anywhere. In fact, the Bible teaches that one's salvation is secure in the love of Christ.

Eze 18 absolutely does not speak of physical death.
This claim requires a bit (lots) of support from Scripture.

Ez 18: it is a terrible stretch to believe this means physical death. God says the righteous will live, and the wicked will die.
Got news for you. Everyone will die, the righteous along with the unrighteous. What makes one think this refers to eternal life or death? What, in context?

Concerning physical death, every righteous man who we have record of died physically, except for Enoch and Elijah. So this is just absolutely not true, if it speaks of physical death.
What is being missed here is the "untimely" physical death as a means of ultimate discipline of the believer. 1 Cor 11:30 speaks directly to this issue, as does 1 Cor 10 and the Exodus generation.

Now, furthermore, you run into greater issue when you continue on, as to verse 21- But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die." Is this so, men who turn from all their sins and keep all God's statutes shall not die physically?
Not right away. Not an untimely death.

22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? 24 But when the righteous turns away from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
This speaks of physical death to the believer who gets into iniquity as a lifestyle. Again, 1 cor 11:30 and ch 10.

To be clear, read the whole chapter, particularly vv21-32, and there is no way you can believe that he's talking about physical death. If so, none of the men which you revere as holy men were righteous, all of them died physically, save two. But God calls some men throughout scripture righteous, and just, and perfect, and holy, and pleasing to God (whereas God is not pleased with the wicked), all but two of whom died physically, that is, the righteous.
The text isn't just about physical death. It's physical death as the ultimate divine action for one's sins. Who wants to go to heaven via a "bad conduct discharge" or "dishonorable discharge", to use a military term?

Those who do will lose out on all the reward that has been reserved for them.
 
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