What caused the Universe?

[HitchSlap]

Then where did the stuff come from?

I have no idea.... and neither do you.

 

[HitchSlap]

do you want God to exist?

How about you, do you want a god/s to exist?

 

[victorinus]

The question is irrelevant for the topic at hand -

actually it is
-so-
why don't you play along
-and-
see what happens
-
do you want God to exist?

 

[HitchSlap]

Yes, indeed.

You can't get them to stay on topic when discussing the Creation Week.

They always ... without exception ... want to bring up everything BUT the creation events.

That's why I tell others, when discussing creation, never let someone bring up events that happened after that week, or the discussion is over.

I agree with you, once you bring the facts into the discussion, it's over.

 

[victorinus]

I don't care.

don't believe that
-
do believe you don't want to answer the question because you don't want to answer the followup question

 

[victorinus]

How about you, do you want a god/s to exist?

yes because it explains what we are experiencing

 

[HitchSlap]

don't believe that
-
do believe you don't want to answer the question because you don't want to answer the followup question

I don't care what you believe, and I don't care if a god/s exist.

How about you, do want a god/s to exist?

 

[HitchSlap]

yes because it explains what we are experiencing

About as well as no god explains what we're experiencing, I suppose. Otherwise there's really no discussion.

 

[Speedwell]

What followup question?

 

[klutedavid]

It doesn't seem to matter what the topic of a thread is. No matter what we are talking about, somebody always seems to want to hijack the thread and discuss what caused the Universe.

My answer? Obviously there was a Big Bang, but before that, I don't know. Nobody knows. But the best I can tell there is some sort of driving force that "always" existed and that led to the creation of our universe, and perhaps to many other universes. (I put "always" in parenthesis, because the very concept of time is not clearly defined after we step outside the space-time constraints of the known universe.)

So have at it. This is the thread many people seem to want. If you know what caused the universe, tell us what caused it, and how you know you are right.

Hello DM.

The principle of causation is accepted by both scientist and theist.

The first or initial cause is a necessary premise, after all nothing ever just
happens.

 

[victorinus]

About as well as no god explains what we're experiencing, I suppose. Otherwise there's really no discussion.

how do you explain what we are experiencing?

 

[victorinus]

What followup question?

why do you want God to exist?
-or-
why don't you want God to exist?

 

[HitchSlap]

how do you explain what we are experiencing?

It's great to be alive!

 

[victorinus]

It's great to be alive!

that is not an explanation

 

[Speedwell]

why do you want God to exist?
-or-
why don't you want God to exist?

Let's see... I don't want God to exist because I want to deny the possibility of divine retribution for my hedonist lifestyle.
Is that the answer you were looking for?

 

[quatona]

actually it is

No, it isn´t.

-so-
why don't you play along
-and-
see what happens

...because I have been around long enough to know where it leads; this script isn´t all that original.

If it is relevant for the question, why don´t you simply give your argument in response to either option, yes or no? No need to play stupid games.

 

[-57]

I don't see how my statement can be called spin. Genesis 22 clearly says that God told Abraham to set out to kill his son. If you don't think this is true, tell me what you think Genesis 22:1-2 is saying. If my interpretation is spin, then please state in your own words what you think Genesis 22:1-2 is saying, and why that is different from what I say it says.

I make no claim to be above God.

I do make a claim to have a better grasp of moral principles compared to the (human) writer of Genesis. I say this, not because I am a superior moral person to that writer, but because I stand on the shoulders of giants. So no, I am not claiming to be morally superior to God. I am claiming that the moral deficiency of Genesis 22 puts the status of Genesis as a divine authority in question.

Your statement seems to say that, if God told you to kill your son, then it would be right to do that.

If I thought I heard the voice of God telling me to kill my son, I would not do it. I would go to a shrink. What would you recommend a person do if he hears a voice claiming to be God and telling him to kill his son?

Youre post still shows you have no understanding of the verse and why God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son.
I imagine your next argument would be that the Father was moraly wrong for asking Jesus to be a sacrifice.

 

[-57]

Yes that creates a problem for me. I agree.

But it also makes a problem for you if your God made one and only one universe. If God waited a zillion years before creating the universe, and when that zillion years was over repeated that zillion year wait another zillion times, and when that set of a zillion zillion year periods was done, decided to repeat that another zillion zillion zillion times, and that doesn't even begin to describe the wait until the universe began, what in the heck was God doing all that time? What was he waiting for?

Since Einstein, "time" is known to be relative. As I have said several times, when we step outside the singularity at the beginning of the universe, time as we know it loses all meaning. Was there even sequential time "before" the Big Bang. Was time circular, or like a dimension in space that you could travel in any dimension? No matter if you are a theist or nontheist, as soon as you step outside the space time of the known universe, and try to grasp a meaning of reality before the universe, we are left with a great quandry as to what that was like.

That is one reason why, to me, the most logical thing is that, for all eternity, there always was a fundamental reality of some kind that was creating universes. We just happen to be living in one of them. So there was no wait of zillions of years before the Big Bang exploded. It may have always been the cosmic 4th of July, with Big Bangs for all of eternity past.

There still is no problem for me. God operates outside of time...and created time when He created stuff. Time had a beginning.

 

[Speedwell]

Youre post still shows you have no understanding of the verse and why God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son.
I imagine your next argument would be that the Father was moraly wrong for asking Jesus to be a sacrifice.

There is a respectable body of opinion to the effect that God was testing Abraham to see if he would actually go through with it. Abraham failed the test and God never spoke to him again.

 

[-57]

I have no idea.... and neither do you.

the bible tells me God did it.