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What Calvinists and Arminians DO have in common

WisdomTree

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Well that's what I see the Scriptures describing, especially with the use of ἐφάπαξ by the writer of Hebrews in regard to the atoning work of Christ which is the basis of our justification. Normally protestants in general will make a distinction between Justification and Sanctification, Justification being the one time event and Sanctification being the process by which we become more Christ like.

In contrast to Catholics and Orthodoxy who view justification and sanctification being the same process (though different).

It's interesting to see different schools of thoughts on this matter.
 
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NorrinRadd

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Even in "earthly" families, there can be disagreement, but they ARE family.

I wanted to start this thread primarily to focus on the areas Calvinists and Arminians DO agree and have this particular thread be a place where we can get to fellowship with one another in areas we see eye-to-eye. So I guess you could call this a place where "Guests" to this forum can see that even if we, as a family disagree on certain things, as any family can do, we are family, brothers and sisters in Christ. ...

p.s... feel free to ADD to the list up above that I started.

IMO, the differences are mainly in the area of soteriology, so I will limit
my "list" to the areas of that particular field where we do still agree.

A) We agree that God takes the initiative in salvation. No one seeks God without having first been drawn by Him.

B) We agree that no one responds to that drawing without the preparatory work of the Spirit in convicting, illuminating, etc.

C) We agree that no saved person can "lose" salvation -- "Oops! I dropped it somewhere!" --sin or carelessness or even doubt.

D) We agree that no genuinely saved person ever gets "re-saved." (Speaking here more of "Classical" than "Wesleyan" Arminianism.)

E) We agree that man never contributes anything of "merit" to obtaining or maintaining his salvation.

F) Both "camps" tend to want to find ways to make all applicable Scripture passages harmonize, rather than accepting "tension" or "paradox" as, e.g., Lutherans do.
 
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Shulamite

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IMO, the differences are mainly in the area of soteriology, so I will limit
my "list" to the areas of that particular field where we do still agree.

A) We agree that God takes the initiative in salvation. No one seeks God without having first been drawn by Him.

B) We agree that no one responds to that drawing without the preparatory work of the Spirit in convicting, illuminating, etc.

C) We agree that no saved person can "lose" salvation -- "Oops! I dropped it somewhere!" --sin or carelessness or even doubt.

D) We agree that no genuinely saved person ever gets "re-saved." (Speaking here more of "Classical" than "Wesleyan" Arminianism.)

E) We agree that man never contributes anything of "merit" to obtaining or maintaining his salvation.

F) Both "camps" tend to want to find ways to make all applicable Scripture passages harmonize, rather than accepting "tension" or "paradox" as, e.g., Lutherans do.

Amen and I agree. I have worked side by side with Arminians in agreement that one cannot lose their salvation. Jesus promised us that once we are given to Him by the Father, He will "lose none of all He is given"...and we are "sealed unto the day of redemption." Another promise that holds dear to my heart is this: "He (Jesus) will present us faultless and blameless in His sight."

Also, your other points I agree on as well. Thanks for the post :)
 
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Ignatius21

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It depends on your spectrum.

I see a spectrum with only 2 parts: synergism and monergism.

Every Christian religion falls into one of those two categories. The two are lightyears apart.

Are they? Do they? Calvinism itself falls into both. I've participated in several threads (and many discussions in my own past) about precisely what in Calvinism is monergistic and what is synergistic. So more specifically you must mean monergism with regard to election and "regeneration." And if that's the case, then you are creating a spectrum that attempts to force 2000 years of Christian belief into a binary categories based on a definition of regeneration that really arose in the 16th Century, only in the West, and in reaction to Roman Catholicism.

Does this seem like a valid way to categorize things?

Saying the two are "lightyears" apart just seems like a bit of hyperbole to me. The difference between Arminians and Calvinists on this point is, to me, a philosophical quibble about how "the elect" come to participate in forensic justification based on the imputation of alien righteousness that was won through the payment of an infinite debt to satisfy the demands of legal justice, by Christ accruing infinite merit through perfect obedience, and receiving infinite punishment for our crime. 99% of that paragraph describes what Calvinism and Arminianism have in common.

Let's list out some other things they share as a common heritage of a rejection of Roman Catholicism:

- sola scriptura (though even here there is no single definition of exactly how this is understood)
- a relatively equivalent approach to hermeneutics
- a truncated canon of the Old Testament
- an understanding of the "Church" as being primarily "invisible"
- a rejection of a sacramental understanding of grace
- a rejection of the physical world as conveying grace (i.e. a rejection of the concepts of sacred time and sacred space)

Now let's look at what's held in common with Roman Catholicism:

- an overall rationalistic and scholastic approach to understanding faith and theology
- an embrace of a generally legal framework for understanding God's relationships with humanity
- an embrace of an "Anselmian" understanding of the atonement being primarily a "legal" sort of transaction between the Son and the Father, on behalf of humanity--i.e. the Atonement is accomplished primarily in the death of Christ
- *** although with a much greater emphasis on punishment, i.e. Penal Substitution as a particular expression of satisfaction
- an understanding of the Incarnation also based on Anselm, where its primary goal is for Christ to die as God-man to satisfy the demands of justice
- the understanding that our acceptance before God is based on merit, and that merit can be transferred from one party to another
- a Trinitarian theology that includes a double procession of the Holy Spirit from both the Father and the Son
- a doctrine of God that identifies his essence with his energies, which leads to....

If Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism are synergistic, that means both of them are closer to Arminanism than Calvinism is to any of them.

Not at all. First of all, at least Arminianism shares your understanding of regeneration and justification. So at least they can differ from you on the same level. RCC does not share that understanding, however they share the underlying framework for understanding grace, merit, atonement and the like. Orthodoxy shares very little of any of this. The doctrine of God that is shared among Protestants and Catholics alike, which identifies God's energies with his essence, and holds that as humans we can only experience God through his created energies in this world, by necessity changes the way synergism can even be understood. For the Orthodox, synergy is an actual co-operation between (and participation in) the created energies of man, and the uncreated energies of God.

Some argue (and I think there's merit to their argument) that in the Western "Augustinian" understanding of God (I place that in quotes because it's greatly disputed whether it's really based on Augustine's own theology) absolute predestination is the only consistent basis for salvation, because for God to exist, is the same as for God to predestine. In the Eastern doctrine of God, it is not the case. If we were to identify a truly binary spectrum of belief and try to force all systems to one end or the other, I think we'd be closer in saying the difference lies between identifying God's essence with his energies (in which case you can strongly argue that monergism is the only consistent outworking) and differentiating God's essence from his energies (in which synergism is not only possible but necessary).

So your binary view of the world may have some truth to it, but it's skewed. Because in this view as I've expressed it, you'd have all of Protestantism, together with Catholicism, at one end of the spectrum, and Orthodoxy (probably including also Coptic Orthodoxy) at the other. I do not wish to force everything into this binary view, because there a million shades of gray. But if we had to, it would be closer to this, than to how you've expressed it.

Whether or not it's palatable, your beliefs are still very much part of the Roman Catholic...perhaps "Latin" would be easier to admit to...understanding of God and salvation. :crossrc:
 
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JackSparrow

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IMO, the differences are mainly in the area of soteriology, so I will limit
my "list" to the areas of that particular field where we do still agree.

A) We agree that God takes the initiative in salvation. No one seeks God without having first been drawn by Him.

B) We agree that no one responds to that drawing without the preparatory work of the Spirit in convicting, illuminating, etc.

C) We agree that no saved person can "lose" salvation -- "Oops! I dropped it somewhere!" --sin or carelessness or even doubt.

D) We agree that no genuinely saved person ever gets "re-saved." (Speaking here more of "Classical" than "Wesleyan" Arminianism.)

E) We agree that man never contributes anything of "merit" to obtaining or maintaining his salvation.

F) Both "camps" tend to want to find ways to make all applicable Scripture passages harmonize, rather than accepting "tension" or "paradox" as, e.g., Lutherans do.

:amen:

I'd be interested if you expand on point F (on another thread).
 
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NorrinRadd

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Amen and I agree. I have worked side by side with Arminians in agreement that one cannot lose their salvation. Jesus promised us that once we are given to Him by the Father, He will "lose none of all He is given"...and we are "sealed unto the day of redemption." Another promise that holds dear to my heart is this: "He (Jesus) will present us faultless and blameless in His sight."

Also, your other points I agree on as well. Thanks for the post :)

I think I need to clarify that I agree with "Classical" Arminians that it IS possible to "abandon" the faith, and that if one does so, the choice is irrevocable. Many of us view this as largely a theoretical possibility, since we can't imagine ACTUALLY choosing to jump ship.


:amen:

I'd be interested if you expand on point F (on another thread).

Yeah, I was going to ask him to elaborate on point F as well, but forgot to add it to my post. Glad you brought it up, Jack.

Even though virtually all of my family is Lutheran, I don't know much about distinctively Lutheran beliefs except for the little I've read online. I know I have read repeatedly that Lutheranism strives to say what Scripture says, even if this leads to mystery, tension, paradox. I'll try to track down one of those sources, but don't know that I'll succeed.

I've been told in discussions between Calvinists and Arminians that the TULIP is logically so interrelated that none of the petals can be removed, hence "4-Point Calvinism," e.g., is an oxymoron. And I acknowledge that TULIP is not the whole of Calvinism, but rather originated as a "Dort retort," so to speak, rebuffing each of the Five Remonstrances. So it was probably intended only to be a line of demarcation between Calvinism and Arminianism, not a summary of Calvinism or even of Calvinist soteriology -- but practically speaking, that is what it has become. Some on each "side" believe there are only two options: A hardline Calvinist believes a 4-Point Calvinist is really a 1-Point Arminian, and a hardline Arminian believes a 4-Point Arminian (granted Arminians are less prone to such terminology) is really a 1-Point Calvinist.

I'm not sure what they do with Lutherans, per this page. That page doesn't seem to make much mention of "paradox" and such, but it does nicely sum up where Lutherans stand with respect to the TULIP. If it is true that accepting any of the TULIP petals, and accepting the exact Calvinist understanding of each petal, means that all five must be either accepted or rejected (or redefined at least slightly), and that seems so to me, then it seems the Lutheran view subordinates logic -- which notion, BTW, is ok with me.
 
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Shulamite

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I think I need to clarify that I agree with "Classical" Arminians that it IS possible to "abandon" the faith, and that if one does so, the choice is irrevocable. Many of us view this as largely a theoretical possibility, since we can't imagine ACTUALLY choosing to jump ship.






Even though virtually all of my family is Lutheran, I don't know much about distinctively Lutheran beliefs except for the little I've read online. I know I have read repeatedly that Lutheranism strives to say what Scripture says, even if this leads to mystery, tension, paradox. I'll try to track down one of those sources, but don't know that I'll succeed.

I've been told in discussions between Calvinists and Arminians that the TULIP is logically so interrelated that none of the petals can be removed, hence "4-Point Calvinism," e.g., is an oxymoron. And I acknowledge that TULIP is not the whole of Calvinism, but rather originated as a "Dort retort," so to speak, rebuffing each of the Five Remonstrances. So it was probably intended only to be a line of demarcation between Calvinism and Arminianism, not a summary of Calvinism or even of Calvinist soteriology -- but practically speaking, that is what it has become. Some on each "side" believe there are only two options: A hardline Calvinist believes a 4-Point Calvinist is really a 1-Point Arminian, and a hardline Arminian believes a 4-Point Arminian (granted Arminians are less prone to such terminology) is really a 1-Point Calvinist.

I'm not sure what they do with Lutherans, per this page. That page doesn't seem to make much mention of "paradox" and such, but it does nicely sum up where Lutherans stand with respect to the TULIP. If it is true that accepting any of the TULIP petals, and accepting the exact Calvinist understanding of each petal, means that all five must be either accepted or rejected (or redefined at least slightly), and that seems so to me, then it seems the Lutheran view subordinates logic -- which notion, BTW, is ok with me.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and elaborating more on point "F". I appreciate it. I admit to disagreeing on a point here or there, but I won't go there in this thread :). I wanted this thread to be a place where we could fellowship on those things we do agree on and edify one another.
Thanks again for your input!
 
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elman

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Amen and I agree. I have worked side by side with Arminians in agreement that one cannot lose their salvation. Jesus promised us that once we are given to Him by the Father, He will "lose none of all He is given"...and we are "sealed unto the day of redemption." Another promise that holds dear to my heart is this: "He (Jesus) will present us faultless and blameless in His sight."

Also, your other points I agree on as well. Thanks for the post :)

If the righteous turn to wickedness they will die and not live. Ezekiel 18
 
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Arcoe

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No, I'm referring to Genesis 1 through Ezekiel 17 and Ezekiel 19 through Revelation 22.

Ezekiel 18 makes up the totality of Elman's Bible.

Honestly Skala, I've seen where he has given more than that one chapter. Nevertheless, I don't think he uses that one chapter any more than Calvinists use Romans 9.
 
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Ignatius21

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Skala (and anyone else), does my reply from the previous page explain why I think Calvinism and Arminianism are in fact very close, and why I don't think the monergism/synergism divide is actually all that significant within the Protestant camp?

Also, none of that is intended as criticism. Given the vast similarities between the two I would think everyone would be encouraged to highlight the similarities rather than differences and make a great joint effort toward accomplishing good in the world and spreading the Gospel.
 
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JackSparrow

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Skala (and anyone else), does my reply from the previous page explain why I think Calvinism and Arminianism are in fact very close, and why I don't think the monergism/synergism divide is actually all that significant within the Protestant camp?

Also, none of that is intended as criticism. Given the vast similarities between the two I would think everyone would be encouraged to highlight the similarities rather than differences and make a great joint effort toward accomplishing good in the world and spreading the Gospel.

Yeah, you a right.
 
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Hammster

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Skala (and anyone else), does my reply from the previous page explain why I think Calvinism and Arminianism are in fact very close, and why I don't think the monergism/synergism divide is actually all that significant within the Protestant camp?

Also, none of that is intended as criticism. Given the vast similarities between the two I would think everyone would be encouraged to highlight the similarities rather than differences and make a great joint effort toward accomplishing good in the world and spreading the Gospel.

It's not an either/or. We can debate over our differences and still evangelize together.
 
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elman

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No, I'm referring to Genesis 1 through Ezekiel 17 and Ezekiel 19 through Revelation 22.

Ezekiel 18 makes up the totality of Elman's Bible.
So you are on board with picking and choosing and you chose to pick and eliminated Ezekiel 18 from your bible? The reason you resort to this kind of false ridicule is you are not able to deal with Ezekiel 18 logically.
 
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Keachian

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So you are on board with picking and choosing and you chose to pick and eliminated Ezekiel 18 from your bible? The reason you resort to this kind of false ridicule is you are not able to deal with Ezekiel 18 logically.

That's not what Skala said.

I have dealt with Jack's (?) problems with Calvinism and Ezek 18 in another thread, if you want to start a thread and enunciate what you see as problematic for the Calvinist from there I'd be happy to address your concerns.
 
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