What became of "unconditional" love?

[Saint Steven]

I guess this is bugging you.

Your stated position defies logic. Should I shrug that off?

God's love can also be conditional.

If God's love is conditional, then it can't be unconditional. And...
If God's love is unconditional, then it can't be conditional. No way around that really.

He does not tolerate sins, wickedness, disobedience, and hostility toward Him.

He has been doing exactly that (tolerating sin) for ages.

So let's say His love is unconditional however, there are consequences when love for Him is abandoned.

Consequences when love for Him is abandoned? Like leaving the ninety-nine to go after the one who wandered away? (Luke 15:4)

 

[Saint Steven]

It depends on what you mean by devasting "of course". I would regard eternal torture or annihilation as devastating but of course, that wouldn't be compatible with love in any meaningful sense of the word. SO something has to go: either God's love or the concept of ECT. And that's a matter of personal choice.

Thanks for joining the discussion with your valuable input.
I thought there might be some hangups about this subject. It's actually much worse than I suspected.
The belief that God's love is unconditional seems to have become extinct. A theological dinosaur. - LOL

 

[Saint Steven]

I changed my position.

A healthy discussion then?
What is your current position?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

It depends on what you mean by devasting "of course". I would regard eternal torture or annihilation as devastating but of course, that wouldn't be compatible with love in any meaningful sense of the word. SO something has to go: either God's love or the concept of ECT. And that's a matter of personal choice.

A healthy discussion then?
What is your current position?

Unconditional but with consequences. Best I can do, I'm not a Universalist.
Blessings.

 

[Hmm]

Unconditional but with consequences. Best I can do, I'm not a Universalist.
Blessings.

Although logically, there are only three options: eternal punishment of some kind (let's call this ECT), annihilation or universalism.

 

[public hermit]

Been quite some time since I have heard anyone discuss, or even refer to it.
Discussions of conditions for God's love is all the rage; no mention of unconditional love lately. Currently out of fashion?

Differentiating agape' from phileo and eros was once important gospel discussion.

Do we apply unconditional love in all these situations?

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 13:34-35
A new commandment I give to you, That you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

1 John 4:8
He that loves not knows not God; for God is love.

1 John 4:16
And we have known and believed the love that God has to us. God is love; and he that dwells in love dwells in God, and God in him.

1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear: because fear has torment. He that fears is not made perfect in love.

Romans 5:8
But God commends his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

I assume a fairly specific definition of love that I have found in various writings from Augustine to CS Lewis. At its root, love always desires the good of the beloved, and in act, love seeks to bring about the good of the beloved.

I do believe God's love is given without conditions. God's love was revealed to us that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. And why did Christ die? Christ died so that we would have the ultimate good for which we were created: life now and forever in the divine presence. In short, God is our ultimate good, and has graciously, through Christ, ensured our end for which we are created.

God does not need anything from us that would qualify as a condition worthy of God's love in return. What could we give to God that would merit God's goodness in giving God's self to us? I laugh because the very thought is absurd. What can I give God in order to merit receiving God? Everything I have comes from God, and unless God gives God's self to me, I have nothing to give that would merit receiving God in return. But if God gives God's self to me, which is the only thing I could give that warrants receiving God in return, then what I give God is the gift of God given to me. In short, the great good of God's self cannot be received based on some condition I meet but can only be graciously given by God, unconditionally.

 

[Saint Steven]

Unconditional but with consequences. Best I can do, I'm not a Universalist.

That's easy to fix. - LOL

 

[Saint Steven]

God does not need anything from us that would qualify as a condition worthy of God's love in return. What could we give to God that would merit God's goodness in giving God's self to us? I laugh because the very thought is absurd. What can I give God in order to merit receiving God? Everything I have comes from God, and unless God gives God's self to me, I have nothing to give that would merit receiving God in return. But if God gives God's self to me, which is the only thing I could give that warrants receiving God in return, then what I give God is the gift of God given to me. In short, the great good of God's self cannot be received based on some condition I meet but can only be graciously given by God, unconditionally.

You nailed it. Thanks.
This reminded me of the scene in Revelation where the twenty-four elders are casting their crowns.
All they had to cast was given to them.

 

[bling]

Unconditional means nothing in return. From the beginning God walked with Adam and Eve and in return He asked them to love and obey Him. They did not love or obey Him so His Spirit was no longer with them. He still loved them however their condition changed and the relationship ended.
Blessings.

You kind of contradict yourself by saying: “He still loved them”. Was the “change” a transition, was it like when your children first sin?

Where did God command or order or ask Adam and Eve to Love Him? Do you command your children to “Love” you?

Where does it say, God’s Love was conditional on Adam and Eve obeying Him? Yes bad things would happen to them for not obeying, but do bad things happen to your children if they do not obey you (do you discipline your children and/or quit Loving them)?

 

[bling]

Unconditional but with consequences. Best I can do, I'm not a Universalist.
Blessings.

With our own children, consequences are loving fair just discipline.
The problem comes with those not going to heaven, which i will address below to Sant Steven, Hmm and Public Hermit

 

[bling]

I assume a fairly specific definition of love that I have found in various writings from Augustine to CS Lewis. At its root, love always desires the good of the beloved, and in act, love seeks to bring about the good of the beloved.

I do believe God's love is given without conditions. God's love was revealed to us that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. And why did Christ die? Christ died so that we would have the ultimate good for which we were created: life now and forever in the divine presence. In short, God is our ultimate good, and has graciously, through Christ, ensured our end for which we are created.

God does not need anything from us that would qualify as a condition worthy of God's love in return. What could we give to God that would merit God's goodness in giving God's self to us? I laugh because the very thought is absurd. What can I give God in order to merit receiving God? Everything I have comes from God, and unless God gives God's self to me, I have nothing to give that would merit receiving God in return. But if God gives God's self to me, which is the only thing I could give that warrants receiving God in return, then what I give God is the gift of God given to me. In short, the great good of God's self cannot be received based on some condition I meet but can only be graciously given by God, unconditionally.

You nailed it. Thanks.
This reminded me of the scene in Revelation where the twenty-four elders are casting their crowns.
All they had to cast was given to them.

Although logically, there are only three options: eternal punishment of some kind (let's call this ECT), annihilation or universalism.

Unconditional but with consequences. Best I can do, I'm not a Universalist.
Blessings.

This is a very tragic filled world, lots of hardship, sinning, needless deaths, with the threat of hell/annihilation, but it is also the very best situation for willing individuals to fulfill their earthly objective (simple obtain and grow Godly type Love to be like God Himself).

God is actually allowing or causing everything He can to help willing individuals fulfill their earthly objective, but free will choices are needed with likely alternatives to fulfill man’s earthly objective, so not all people will fulfill the objective.

Look at the prodigal son story and specifically the father (represent God) and the older son (represent mature adults at some time in their life). At the end of the story the Loving father out of Love for the older son makes a special trip out to the older son and pleads with the older son the best He can to join the party. If the older son refused to join the party what is the Loving thing for the father to do? Should the father get some servants and drag the son into the party and would that make the older son happy?

The party (the kingdom extending from earth to heaven) is going on, but some have repeatedly expressed refusal to the point they would never make the party their free will choice over other likely alternatives. The Father Loves them, but God cannot change the party and the people there, to people the older son might like, so there is no place for them to go. If God the Father changes the older son to someone who wants to be at the party, this new person is no longer the Older Son’s choice of who he is and thus a programmed robot.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

You kind of contradict yourself by saying: “He still loved them”. Was the “change” a transition, was it like when your children first sin?

Where did God command or order or ask Adam and Eve to Love Him? Do you command your children to “Love” you?

Where does it say, God’s Love was conditional on Adam and Eve obeying Him? Yes bad things would happen to them for not obeying, but do bad things happen to your children if they do not obey you (do you discipline your children and/or quit Loving them)?

Yes if a child disobey's their parent something bad could happen to them. I learned the hard way when I ran across the street without looking and almost got hit by a car. I still got a pretty good spanking but I'm alive!

 

[Hmm]

The party (the kingdom extending from earth to heaven) is going on, but some have repeatedly expressed refusal to the point they would never make the party their free will choice over other likely alternatives.

I'm sure you'd agree that life often doesn't feel like a Godly party. I saw the film Philomena recently which was about the Magdalene Laundries in Ireland, basically workhouses run by nuns who seriously abused unmarried young mothers. Would any of these victims been repeatedly refusing an invitation to God's party if they saw the church as a place of abuse and wanted nothing to do with it? Of course not. God will patiently and sensitively break through to them in the next age where they will see Him as He truly is for the first time.

 

[bling]

Yes if a child disobey's their parent something bad could happen to them. I learned the hard way when I ran across the street without looking and almost got hit by a car. I still got a pretty good spanking but I'm alive!

That was not Love or consequences, that was Love.

 

[bling]

I'm sure you'd agree that life often doesn't feel like a Godly party. I saw the film Philomena recently which was about the Magdalene Laundries in Ireland, basically workhouses run by nuns who seriously abused unmarried young mothers. Would any of these victims been repeatedly refusing an invitation to God's party if they saw the church as a place of abuse and wanted nothing to do with it? Of course not. God will patiently and sensitively break through to them in the next age where they will see Him as He truly is for the first time.

That "workhouse" and the behavior of those nuns was not Christian nor the Kingdom. Hopefully the young mothers who went there came to that realization. It appears they never had the opportunity to accept or reject God's love, but did have the opportunity to reject a satanic type of abuse. Never having the opportunity means they went on to heaven, but sadly without Godly type Love.
Do you feel these nuns were Christ like (Christians) just because they were nuns?

 

[Aussie Pete]

UR is flawed because it is based on unconditional love? Wow. What's wrong with this picture?

You ignore the responsibility of man to respond appropriately to God's love.

Romans 1:

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness. 19For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse.

Paul goes on to say that God's way is to give people over to the desires of their hearts. We've seen how that works out. Then people have the hide to blame God for the evil done by men simply being men. What is astounding is that God still loves us.
Matthew 7:
…22Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’

 

[Saint Steven]

You ignore the responsibility of man to respond appropriately to God's love.

That would be conditional then. What became of unconditional love?

 

[Aussie Pete]

That would be conditional then. What became of unconditional love?

I love my daughter. She will have nothing to do with me. I did not even know about her fourth child. The only time I hear from her is when she is in trouble. Even then, it's via my son. Is it love to push myself into her family? Against her wishes? I do not believe so. My son and I get on very well. God is in a similar position. Many are estranged and reject His love. Others love God and accept His wonderful gift of salvation. God IS love. Nothing can change Him. Either we receive His love or we reject it. So yes, God's love is unconditional.

 

[YahuahSaves]

Only God truly loves unconditionally. We humans need a lot of help because we tend to place a lot of expectations on others. That being said, God gave us the choice to choose him. These scriptures from your post stood out:

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

1 John 4:8
He that loves not knows not God; for God is love.

 

[Hmm]

Do you feel these nuns were Christ like (Christians) just because they were nuns?

No, not at all, quite the opposite in fact. I think these Magdalele "nuns", and I'll use double quotes here because they weren't nuns at all, other than technically, were far worse in their treatment of others than the average secular person would have been. I think this partly because I've read the harrowing autobiography of the American slave Frederick Douglass (not a typo, there are two 's's in his name), who testified that Christian slave-owners, I should use double-quotes again around the word "Christian" here but I believe you'll get my point, were far crueler than secular slave-owners. He didn't speculate as to the reason but it's pretty obvious isn't it?

Never having the opportunity means they went on to heaven, but sadly without Godly type Love.

This means that there are two tiers in heaven, which makes me think of workplaces: management against the poor, down-trodden, heroic workers. It's not an image of a Godly eternity that computes with me, no doubt because I'm not managerial material but am instead a fine, upstanding, honest-to-goodness, salt-of-the-earth, blue-collar type of guy.