What Authority is left if Emotions and Science Can't be Trusted?

[mkgal1]

This is a fallacious representation.



False.

Maybe I have the religious lines of distinction drawn incorrectly then. Are there churches that are "complementarian" but not a part of the fundamentalists?

 

[Paidiske]

That's an interesting question. It seems to me that complementarian ideas have in many places well and truly infiltrated more mainstream churches.

 

[mkgal1]

In this TEDtalk Sister Joan describes the diacotomy I'm referring to (heirarchial view vs what I see as an egalitarian view) She includes a lot of what's within those two "camps":

 

[WolfGate]

Maybe I have the religious lines of distinction drawn incorrectly then. Are there churches that are "complementarian" but not a part of the fundamentalists?

Jumping in for this one point, - yes, most definitely there are. Many evangelical churches would fit in that group. FWIW (and this is just my observation), I think fundamentalist churches tend to lean toward being patriarchal, though some will claim to be complementarian because they think it sounds better.

 

[mkgal1]

Jumping in for this one point, - yes, most definitely there are. Many evangelical churches would fit in that group. FWIW (and this is just my observation), I think fundamentalist churches tend to lean toward being patriarchal, though some will claim to be complementarian because they think it sounds better.

.....and when I say "fundamentalist"--even then I mean in a broader sense, not like Warren Jeffs--but more like what the variety that the Gospel Coalition represents (and sticking my neck out--what the American GOP represents as "Christianity"....ie, Jerry Falwell Jr and Senior, James Dobson, Franklin Graham..etc).

So Wolfgate, are you using "complementarian" in a way that *doesn't* represent a patriarchal view (because from your previous posts, your idea of "complementarian" seems closer to "egalitarian" to me)?

And...I agree...the use of that word seems to have been hijacked, and that makes this all really confusing. When I use the term "complementarian"--I mean as opposed to "egalitarian" (IOW patriarchal).

 

[WolfGate]

.....and when I say "fundamentalist"--even then I mean in a broader sense, not like Warren Jeffs--but more like what the variety that the Gospel Coalition represents (and sticking my neck out--what the American GOP represents as "Christianity"....ie, Jerry Falwell Jr and Senior, James Dobson, Franklin Graham..etc).

So Wolfgate, are you using "complementarian" in a way that *doesn't* represent a patriarchal view (because from your previous posts, your idea of "complementarian" seems closer to "egalitarian" to me)?

And...I agree...the use of that word seems to have been hijacked, and that makes this all really confusing. When I use the term "complementarian"--I mean as opposed to "egalitarian" (IOW patriarchal).

I understand what you're saying from this post, and I guess my thought is that you're trying to make things one or the other - which would necessitate if something leans one way then it is in that category. Which can be fine to illustrate points, but like in everything there is a gray area between the clear end points. I do not see complementarian as the same or a subset of patriarchal just as I do not see all theologically conservative Christianity to be the same as or a subset of fundamentalism.

 

[mkgal1]

I understand what you're saying from this post, and I guess my thought is that you're trying to make things one or the other - which would necessitate if something leans one way then it is in that category. Which can be fine to illustrate points, but like in everything there is a gray area between the clear end points. I do not see complementarian as the same or a subset of patriarchal just as I do not see all theologically conservative Christianity to be the same as or a subset of fundamentalism.

Well.....all I'm really trying to do with the use of "fundamentalists" and "comementarians" is to illustrate a point (but clearly I'm having difficulty with that ).

 

[mkgal1]

I do not see complementarian as the same or a subset of patriarchal just as I do not see all theologically conservative Christianity to be the same as or a subset of fundamentalism.

The word "complementarian" has been hijacked (mostly) and taken over by the patriarchists (like you mentioned, its a much more appealing word).

This article is the variety I mean:

Being taught complementarian Christian theology was like being served pie with glass shards mixed into the filling. I grew up loving Bible stories, and believing Jesus loved me, but I was also regularly reminded, subtly, and not so subtly, of my inferior status as a female.

I would voice my complaints: “Um, this pie is delicious, but it has glass in it!”

The response, “Oh, yeah. That’s God’s special ingredient for girls and women. You don’t like it? We didn’t write the recipe, we just followed God’s directions. You sound pretty ungrateful; you get to eat amazing pie! If you have complaints, take them up with God. He wrote the recipe.”

Me: “Does your pie have glass in it?”

“No, silly! Males and females are different! There is a different recipe for boys and men. Neither pie is better or worse. Just different.”

 

[Paidiske]

Oh, the pie analogy is spot on.

 

[mkgal1]

Oh, the pie analogy is spot on.

I'm glad you thought so. I thought that was an excellent metaphor.

 

[Dave-W]

I do not see all theologically conservative Christianity to be the same as or a subset of fundamentalism.

True. In fact many Fundamental and Fundamentalist Baptists consider Jerry Falwell sr. and the SBA to be way too liberal.

 

[mkgal1]

I do not see all theologically conservative Christianity to be the same as or a subset of fundamentalism.

I think the best way I can come up with, at the moment, for articulating what I'm looking for a label for is to just say it's the group that Sister Joan described---the group that holds VERY tightly to the literal 6-day creation story; that perceives man as the "leader" over women; has God as the "great authoritarian" that gets angry with those that don't follow His rules and "blesses" those that do; that have "rule-following" at a sacrifice as the greatest priority, and if people (especially women) voice any dissatisfaction they're reminded how important obedience and gratitude are (squelching emotions-- and in the process--relationship and connection). Does that not resonate with anyone?

What I'm not saying is that all theologically conservative Christians are the same (of course there's a myriad of differences or else we wouldn't even have all these different "flavors" of Christianity--conservative or otherwise).

I'm not sure what the common denominator is in this group I'm referring to (but I do think Sister Joan has a great hypothesis, that it has much to do with either seeing things that are as "God's will" or seeing things as evolving towards God's will on a trajectory).

 

[WolfGate]

I think the best way I can come up with, at the moment, for articulating what I'm looking for a label for is to just say it's the group that Sister Joan described---the group that holds VERY tightly to the literal 6-day creation story; that perceives man as the "leader" over women; has God as the "great authoritarian" that gets angry with those that don't follow His rules and "blesses" those that do; that have "rule-following" at a sacrifice as the greatest priority, and if people (especially women) voice any dissatisfaction they're reminded how important obedience and gratitude are (squelching emotions-- and in the process--relationship and connection). Does that not resonate with anyone?

What I'm not saying is that all theologically conservative Christians are the same (of course there's a myriad of differences or else we wouldn't even have all these different "flavors" of Christianity--conservative or otherwise).

I'm not sure what the common denominator is in this group I'm referring to (but I do think Sister Joan has a great hypothesis, that it has much to do with either seeing things that are as "God's will" or seeing things as evolving towards God's will on a trajectory).

Yep, I understand the group you're referencing! Seen them, visited their churches, didn't stay. To close my rabbit trail, they tend to be patriarchal in how they view men/women relationships. (Perhaps I should now go read the first part of the thread and see if I have anything real to contribute!!!)