What atonement?

[cloud0729]

Here are some verses that show that no one can atone for someone else's sins, this also goes for the Messiah. Thoughts on the subject are great .


Exodus 32:31-33
"And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book."


Numbers 35:33
"So ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye are: for blood it defileth the land: and the land cannot be cleansed of the blood that is shed therein, but by the blood of him that shed it."


Deuteronomy 24:16
"The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."


II Kings 14:6
"But the children of the murderers he slew not: according unto that which is written in the book of the law of Moses, wherein the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin."


Ezekiel 18:4-20
"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."


Psalms 49:7
"None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him"

Based on these scriptures, God doesn't seem to want someone who has not done wrong to pay for someone who has done wrong.

 

[Digit]

Wait, why does this go for the Messiah?

Digit

 

[TexasGirl06]

That's right.
No one can.

But, God can.
Only God.

Jesus is God.
Jesus is part of the Trinity.

Father, Son, Holy Spirit = One God.

 

[TexasGirl06]

Based on these scriptures, God doesn't seem to want someone who has not done wrong to pay for someone who has done wrong.

The Scriptures you quoted are all from the Old Testament. Before Jesus came to earth as a man.

In the OT, we are given the Law (the Commandments). We are shown that NO ONE can keep the law. We are shown the punishment for sin. When we break the law we have sinned.

God introduces the concept of sacrifice in the OT. He instructed them to sacrifice animals for their sin.

In the OT, God is setting the stage for the Ultimate Sacificial Lamb to come and die for the sin of man.

So.... here are some verses in the New Testament, which show the work of Jesus Christ.

Matthew 1:21 - he will save his people from their sin.

Hebrews 7:27 - he sacrificed for their sin once for all.

1 Peter 2:24 - he himself bore our sin in his body.

Revelation 1:5 - has freed us from our sin by his blood.

1 Timothy 1:15 - came into the world to save sinners.

 

[cloud0729]

Wait, why does this go for the Messiah?

Digit

Nowhere in the Old Testament does it say that the Messiah is to be divine, God, or supernatural. So it applies to anyone, including the Messiah.

 

[cloud0729]

The Scriptures you quoted are all from the Old Testament. Before Jesus came to earth as a man.

In the OT, we are given the Law (the Commandments). We are shown that NO ONE can keep the law. We are shown the punishment for sin. When we break the law we have sinned.

God introduces the concept of sacrifice in the OT. He instructed them to sacrifice animals for their sin.

In the OT, God is setting the stage for the Ultimate Sacificial Lamb to come and die for the sin of man.

So.... here are some verses in the New Testament, which show the work of Jesus Christ.

Matthew 1:21 - he will save his people from their sin.

Hebrews 7:27 - he sacrificed for their sin once for all.

1 Peter 2:24 - he himself bore our sin in his body.

Revelation 1:5 - has freed us from our sin by his blood.

1 Timothy 1:15 - came into the world to save sinners.

What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.
Romans 3:9-10


Now should these three men be in its midst-[namely] Noah, Daniel, and Job-they would save themselves with their righteousness, says the Lord God. - Ezekiel 14:14

Ezekiel is clear that Noah, Daniel, and Job were saved by their own righteousness.

 

[childofGod31]

Imagine 2 traders. One wants to trade bread for some money. But let's say the bread is spoiled. The trade wouldn't be acceptable. (Maybe bad analogy...)

All man are sinful. God could not accept atonement (when one sinful man died for another sinful man).

On the other hand, Jesus was sinless. Only He was worthy to be atonement. Only his holy blood had the power to wash away our sins.

Just like in the OT God said that people could not atone for other people, in the New Testament God said that Jesus WAS atonement for humanity.

Jesus had all the fullness of God dwell in Him, he was NOT in the same class as humans. In Him was life.

 

[cloud0729]

The Scriptures you quoted are all from the Old Testament. Before Jesus came to earth as a man.

In the OT, we are given the Law (the Commandments). We are shown that NO ONE can keep the law. We are shown the punishment for sin. When we break the law we have sinned.

God introduces the concept of sacrifice in the OT. He instructed them to sacrifice animals for their sin.

In the OT, God is setting the stage for the Ultimate Sacificial Lamb to come and die for the sin of man.

So.... here are some verses in the New Testament, which show the work of Jesus Christ.

Matthew 1:21 - he will save his people from their sin.

Hebrews 7:27 - he sacrificed for their sin once for all.

1 Peter 2:24 - he himself bore our sin in his body.

Revelation 1:5 - has freed us from our sin by his blood.

1 Timothy 1:15 - came into the world to save sinners.

Source: http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2915

if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land. [2 Chronicles 7:14]

But if from there you seek the Eternal your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul. [Deuteronomy 4:29]

He prays to God and finds favor with him, he sees God's face and shouts for joy; he is restored by God to his righteous state. [Job 33:26]

Turn from evil and do good; seek peace and pursue it. [Psalm 34:14]

The Eternal is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit. [Psalm 34:18]

You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise. [Psalm 51:16-17]


Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but my ears you have pierced; burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require. [Psalm 40:6]

Take words with you and return to the Eternal. Say to him: "Forgive all our sins and receive us graciously, that we may offer the bulls of our lips. [Hosea 14:2]

He who conceals his sins does not prosper, but whoever confesses and renounces them finds mercy. [Proverbs 28:13]


Through love and faithfulness sin is atoned for; through the fear of the Eternal a man avoids evil. [Proverbs 16:6]

To do what is right and just is more acceptable to the Eternal than sacrifice. [Proverbs 21:3]

For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings. [Hosea 6:6]


The Eternal is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit. [Psalm 34:18]


He prays to God and finds favor with him, he sees God's face and shouts for joy; he is restored by God to his righteous state. [Job 33:26]


With what shall I come before the Eternal and bow down before the exalted God? Shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old? Will the Eternal be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousand rivers of oil? Shall I offer my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the Eternal require of you? Only to do Justice, and to love Mercy and to walk humbly with your God. [Micah 6:6-8]


Kind of contradicts the christian idea that we needed G-d to kill himself in order for us to be forgiven, huh?

 

[TexasGirl06]

Nowhere in the Old Testament does it say that the Messiah is to be divine, God, or supernatural. So it applies to anyone, including the Messiah.

Check out the 9th Chapter of the Book of Isaiah. For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. (vs.6)

 

[TexasGirl06]

What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.
Romans 3:9-10

On their own, no man is righteous.
Jesus is not man.
Jesus is God.

 

[cloud0729]

Check out the 9th Chapter of the Book of Isaiah. For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. (vs.6)

Instead of having me type up the whole explanation of Isaiah 9, I'll give you a link that accurately provides you what it means. http://messiahtruth.com/isa9.html

 

[TexasGirl06]

Kind of contradicts the christian idea that we needed G-d to kill himself in order for us to be forgiven, huh?

I don't think it is contradicting.
Salvation has always been thru Faith.

God is manifested in three persons.
Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

 

[cloud0729]

I don't think it is contradicting.
Salvation has always been thru Faith.

God is manifested in three persons.
Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

At the Council of Nicea (325 CE), the doctrine of the Bianity became canonized, equating Jesus to the substance of God in Christian theology. The Council of Constantinople in 381 CE added the Holy Spirit to the Bianity and the Trinity was canonized. These councils contradicted the Torah of Moses. See Deuteronomy 4:2 and 12:32 for instructions regarding changes to the Torah.

 

[Mary_Magdalene]

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