What are Your Thoughts On D&D

[Lady Jaina]

Okay, I know there are a LOT of opinions out there on D&D, so what are yours?

 

[ThePhoenix]

Annoyingly rule-bound. White wolf has produced a system that is a lot more flexible and is pretty easy to adapt to a fantasy motif. D&D HEAVILY favors combat solutions, to the exclusion of virtually everything else (even most "innovations" boil down to combat with a serious edge).

 

[Skellybones]

Lady--love the game, the best pen&paper rpg around. Wraith runs a close second, but on one plays that anymore.

Phoenix--maybe it's the way your DM runs the game, in the campaigns I head up, there's more talking and mystery/investigation than combat.

 

[Kelly]

just look at the history of this and other forums here. In terms of our faith, most of us here think its like any othe pasttime, as long as it doesn't dominate your waking life, it's ok.

 

[MediocrityInAction]

Don't like it. Too lawyerish in its rules setup, and too restrictive. Also keeps too many anachronisms such as the level system (I think it is the only major system which still uses this dinosaur), the alignment system (ditto), as well as the restrictive nature of the class system.
And yes, it is primarily a combat-based system, and as such, I find that it tends to encourage munchkinism (preoccupation with power of character and with killing things for the sake of killing for the uninitiated).
Phoenix, have you tried the revised Storyteller system White Wolf uses in Trinity? It makes the normal Storyteller system look cumbersome.

 

[Kelly]

Have any of you ever ran a large firefight with White Wolf? The system shows it's faults in combat, just as d20 shows it's faults outside of it.

 

[Dracil]

Cash Cow ever since 3.5

 

[cze_026]

I started with D&D back in the late 70's while in Jr. High. It does favor combat resolution, but that is partially do to its origins. It developed from a table top fantasy wargame, called Chainmail for 15mm and 25mm miniatures. As an RPG, the focus does depend somewhat on the DM. Some DM's are more agressive, Monty Haul, or Munchkin than others. Is it the best fantasy rpg? In my opinion, no it isn't. It is a cash cow for Hasbro, but that doesn't effect me. I haven't bought into the D20 rage, and it is doubtful that I will. With 1st and 2nd editions, I bought and used only the core books, and developed my own environs and adapted acoordingly.

Personally, I like the old WEG D6 system or the Masterbook system. Other good ones are Fudge, PlainLabel, and Fuzion. They are all quite generic and adaptable. GURPS is okay, but can get easily bogged down. I used to play I.C. E. Rolemaster FRPG. It is the best system, statistically, but can easily become Rulemaster, if you don't pick and choose rule applications well.

I don't do a whole lot of roleplaying anymore. I do a little Gamma World with my son. I also do Pandemonium (it is a RPG in a contemporary world, where the tabloid news is reality), and some Mean Streets - Mean Villians (roleplaying in the tradition of 70's and 80's cop shows). Which are all quick and easy to set up, play and finish in a single session.

CZE

 

[Kelly]

cze, I think that you, being an old timer like me, knows that a system is only as good as the DM (and players) who use it. I too came from 1st through 2nd editions and now play 3rd. Our games are great fun and there is as much roleplay and intrigue as the players desire.

I have used the d20 modern system to run a Men in Black type campaign that was one of the funnest gaming experiences I have ever had. I too like WEG's d6 system and was even a hardcore GURPS fanatic for a while. What I like right now about d20 is the modularity. I can kit a new campaign or world around the basic system and all of my players don't have to learn a new system, they can devote more attention to the goings on in the game.

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

I love D&D, but Mage from White Wolf is my main passion Go figure.

Of course, more knowledge and actual roleplaying is generally involved in White Wolf games (especially Mage and Wereworlf) for resolving situations without heavy combat. But you bring up a good point when you mention that the combat sys for WW is a little on the freaklishly random side. With a good combat assistant (I usually have a person to assist Storytelling by handling combat and that's what I call him) you can get through it though

 

[Kelly]

I think that Vampire is the flagship of the WOD/Storyteller system. Werewolf was over the top combat wise. Mage, the whole 'disguise the magic to look like normal reality' thing was too wonky and time consuming. Wraith was a gem but I could never get anyone else to see my view, we ended up never getting past character creation. Luckily I used it heavily in my Vampire chronicle, Detroit would have a huge necropolis. Changeling had no place in the rest of the WOD. Cool idea but a bit silly to roleplay. I am interested to see what they do with the WOD after the End of Times thing this summer.

 

[Kokopelli]

I used to play the D&D 2nd edition with the d20. I agree that it's the DM makes the game. When gaming, I did the typical hack-n-slash, focus more on solving a mystery and the occasional let's-see-who-can-wreck-the-most-havoc game play. I preferred the mystery type of games and the hack-n-slash would get long and drawn out after a while.

Besides D&D, I did have a first edition of Vampire and I played a lot of Call of Cthulhu. To be honest, Vampire really didn't float my boat. CoC was enjoyable because you could have it set in modern times, though your character was really just living on borrowed time.

 

[seebs]

Don't like it. Too lawyerish in its rules setup, and too restrictive. Also keeps too many anachronisms such as the level system (I think it is the only major system which still uses this dinosaur), the alignment system (ditto), as well as the restrictive nature of the class system.

"I don't like Christianity. It has anachronisms such as a God concept (who believes in this anymorre?), the restrictive "sin" concept, and all this strange stuff about an afterlife."

Seriously, I think D&D is just fine. I like the level system; it's a useful tool. The "restrictive" class system is mostly gone in 3.5E; not entirely, but insofar as it's still restrictive, that's to keep munchkins from abusing synergy too much.

The alignment system, IMHO, is one of the best things in D&D. I like to play high fantasy, where there is a difference between the good guys and the bad guys. I like a system that can let you craft a sword so pure that only the purest of men can wield it.

And yes, it is primarily a combat-based system, and as such, I find that it tends to encourage munchkinism (preoccupation with power of character and with killing things for the sake of killing for the uninitiated).

I have not found this to be the case in 3E. Yeah, it has more combat rules than other rules, but that's because combat is mostly resolved in-rules, not in-play. It does just fine for long adventures without any combat at all.

Phoenix, have you tried the revised Storyteller system White Wolf uses in Trinity? It makes the normal Storyteller system look cumbersome.

I haven't had a chance to look at that. I am somewhat unfond of White Wolf, partially for horrible editing, partially because of their insistence on making Vampire, Werewolf, and Mage three different subtly incompatible systems, when it's obvious that players would often prefer to be able to merge them... but they don't even have the same skill lists, and various other rules change slightly from one game to another.

 

[cze_026]

cze, I think that you, being an old timer like me, knows that a system is only as good as the DM (and players) who use it. I too came from 1st through 2nd editions and now play 3rd. Our games are great fun and there is as much roleplay and intrigue as the players desire.

I have used the d20 modern system to run a Men in Black type campaign that was one of the funnest gaming experiences I have ever had. I too like WEG's d6 system and was even a hardcore GURPS fanatic for a while. What I like right now about d20 is the modularity. I can kit a new campaign or world around the basic system and all of my players don't have to learn a new system, they can devote more attention to the goings on in the game.

One of the main reasons that I haven't bought the d20 stuff is no one plays it around here. 3rd Edition and 3.5 have sold like hot cakes, but all the games I have been to left it behind and went back to 2nd edition. Makes it hard for me to be enthusiastic to plunck down the money for three new core books if all they will do is collect dust.

CZE

 

[seebs]

Weird. I don't think we've touched our 2E books since we got 3E.

 

[Kelly]

CZE, you live in SE Michigan? I run a monthly game of 3.5 edition, you are welcome to join if you'd like.

 

[Mr.Cheese]

It is a fantastic game that is highly dependent on a good Dungeon Master. All the complaints I've seen so far stem from an inexperienced DM or a DM that isn't very good.
The focus on combat depends on how your DM likes to play. Ours was unpredictable. Soemtimes he made you think your way through a problem and sometimes he would throw scores of monsters at you for a hackfest. One time he let us pick our favorite superhero and he assimilated them into the game.
The dude was good.
I would never make a good DM.

A fun alternative to D&D is Star Wars.

 

[cze_026]

CZE, you live in SE Michigan? I run a monthly game of 3.5 edition, you are welcome to join if you'd like.

Unfortunately no. I live in SE Iowa. There are a few High Schoolers that claim to a 3rd/3.5 game. Of the games played at the comic store and such all have be 1e/2e that I have witnessed. At the game conventions I attend, there are 3e/3.5e games, and I have participated in those that aren't part of the rpga sanctioned events. I am not a member anymore and don't wish to intrude.

CZE

 

[ThePhoenix]

Don't like it. Too lawyerish in its rules setup, and too restrictive. Also keeps too many anachronisms such as the level system (I think it is the only major system which still uses this dinosaur), the alignment system (ditto), as well as the restrictive nature of the class system.
And yes, it is primarily a combat-based system, and as such, I find that it tends to encourage munchkinism (preoccupation with power of character and with killing things for the sake of killing for the uninitiated).
Phoenix, have you tried the revised Storyteller system White Wolf uses in Trinity? It makes the normal Storyteller system look cumbersome.

Revised? Cool. I've already had to make running revisions to the game, mainly to make combat playable (yeah, crit failures can be WAY out of control, to the point where no one engages in combat, which is limiting in its own way). I'm so getting that when I get the cash (always this nagging concern).

 

[ThePhoenix]

I haven't had a chance to look at that. I am somewhat unfond of White Wolf, partially for horrible editing, partially because of their insistence on making Vampire, Werewolf, and Mage three different subtly incompatible systems, when it's obvious that players would often prefer to be able to merge them... but they don't even have the same skill lists, and various other rules change slightly from one game to another.

Actually they are quite compatable. The difference in skill lists is mainly due to the fact that there was some SIGNIFIGANT additions to the skill list, due to lack of really important skills (research comes to mind). Most people simply use a grand 12 skill per category list when combining the game. Non-core skills were always part of the game anyway, and there's definately room to fiddle (since there's no necessity for there to be any one particular skill in game, unlike D&D). What most people don't understand is that the system encourages fiddling. The main incompatability comes from the vampire's need to maintain humanity, while mages can blithly do what they want, and other problems. These too are resolvable.

Conclusion: The systems can't be melded without changes, but they can be changed easily, unlike D&D.