What are your thoughts on Adam and Eve's decision to eat the fruit?

LegacyJB · Jan 22, 2014

drstevej said:
Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

And just how could anyone know what would happen IF they had not sinned?

Wait, you mean that's not in the Bible? It doesn't say one way or the other what would have happened? I thought you and others believe it has everything there.

We wouldn't be born. If God made some other way for us to be here we'd never return to God.

southcountry · Jan 22, 2014

LegacyJB said:
Not exactly. I believe in what happened in the true sense of it. Sure, God punished them. The punishment was for transgression. I'm not stating opinion, I'm stating what I know is true. What if they never did what they did? We wouldn't be here. They were also commanded to multiply and replenish the earth. This couldn't happen except in a fallen state.

So Aliester Crowley was right?

Ripheus27 · Jan 22, 2014

I'd have been here, since there wasn't a physical individual Adam anyway and I didn't, then, descend from him.

Sophrosyne · Jan 22, 2014

LegacyJB said:
You guys act like Adam and Eve eating the fruit was a bad thing. You realize we wouldn't be here if that doesn't happen right?

I'm sorry but nothing in the Bible suggests that God couldn't have a sinless Adam and Eve to have children. Only Mormons as far as I know believe it takes sinfulness to be able to procreate which IMO is truly against God's character he created as sinless I don't see why Adam being made in his image couldn't also create life (have children) in a sinless condition.

LegacyJB · Jan 22, 2014

Sophrosyne said:
I'm sorry but nothing in the Bible suggests that God couldn't have a sinless Adam and Eve to have children. Only Mormons as far as I know believe it takes sinfulness to be able to procreate which IMO is truly against God's character he created as sinless I don't see why Adam being made in his image couldn't also create life (have children) in a sinless condition.

They had no clue how to procreate.

Nothing in the Bible indicates they still would have had children.

You're mistaken about something, we don't believe Adam and Eve sinned when they ate the fruit. This was physically and spiritually impossible. It was a transgression. Sin and transgression aren't the same. A transgression can be compared to breaking the speed limit while sin can be compared to murder. Breaking the speed limit isn't a crime, it's merely a violation of civil law and is handled in civil court. Murder is a crime and handled in criminal court.
Eating of the fruit caused Adam and Eve to gain knowledge of good and evil. Because this is true, it is also true that a knowledge of good and evil did not exist prior to eating the fruit. Good and evil not existing means sin didn't exist. Even when they ate the fruit they still didn't know what was good and what wasn't, all they knew was God said don't eat it.
The effect we have from the fall is physically being out of God's presence the moment we're born. Being cut off spiritually, however, does not come until one sins.

Now, your turn. I can support what I say as I have just shown.

Sophrosyne · Jan 22, 2014

LegacyJB said:
They had no clue how to procreate.

Nothing in the Bible indicates they still would have had children.

You're mistaken about something, we don't believe Adam and Eve sinned when they ate the fruit. This was physically and spiritually impossible. It was a transgression. Sin and transgression aren't the same. A transgression can be compared to breaking the speed limit while sin can be compared to murder. Breaking the speed limit isn't a crime, it's merely a violation of civil law and is handled in civil court. Murder is a crime and handled in criminal court.
Eating of the fruit caused Adam and Eve to gain knowledge of good and evil. Because this is true, it is also true that a knowledge of good and evil did not exist prior to eating the fruit. Good and evil not existing means sin didn't exist. Even when they ate the fruit they still didn't know what was good and what wasn't, all they knew was God said don't eat it.
The effect we have from the fall is physically being out of God's presence the moment we're born. Being cut off spiritually, however, does not come until one sins.

Now, your turn. I can support what I say as I have just shown.

I'm sorry but your argument that Adam and Eve didn't know about procreating is nothing but an opinion here the Bible doesn't state it in any fashion that they were either ignorant or sterile till they sinned. You are just asserting an opinion without merit to a non existent situation.
Basically you are saying that all the other animals were procreating and Adam and Eve saw them but couldn't figure it out...

LegacyJB · Jan 22, 2014

Sophrosyne said:
I'm sorry but your argument that Adam and Eve didn't know about procreating is nothing but an opinion here the Bible doesn't state it in any fashion that they were either ignorant or sterile till they sinned. You are just asserting an opinion without merit to a non existent situation.
Basically you are saying that all the other animals were procreating and Adam and Eve saw them but couldn't figure it out...

Yes, they were in a sense ignorant because they knew no good or evil. This isn't an opinion, it's common sense. If eating the fruit caused good and evil to be introduced to the world it would stand as true to say good and evil didn't exist on the earth beforehand. Without good and evil there is no sin.

How do you know when the animals started procreating?

Sophrosyne · Jan 22, 2014

LegacyJB said:
Yes, they were in a sense ignorant because they knew no good or evil. This isn't an opinion, it's common sense. If eating the fruit caused good and evil to be introduced to the world it would stand as true to say good and evil didn't exist on the earth beforehand. Without good and evil there is no sin.

How do you know when the animals started procreating?

Your argument isn't logical. The serpent apparently wasn't sinning because he didn't eat from the tree did he? How did the serpent know about Evil? I think you are putting a lot of stock in the tree and are saying Adam didn't know good without eating from it. God is good and Adam knew God so without eating he already knew good he just didn't know about evil till he disobeyed God.
Show me in the Bible where God suddenly turned on everyones fertility and sex drives getting the animals to finally procreate.... all I see happening from eating of the fruit is curses upon creation and you are equating procreation along with the curses because according to you it wasn't possible until Adam and Eve were cursed.

LegacyJB · Jan 22, 2014

Sophrosyne said:
Your argument isn't logical. The serpent apparently wasn't sinning because he didn't eat from the tree did he? How did the serpent know about Evil? I think you are putting a lot of stock in the tree and are saying Adam didn't know good without eating from it. God is good and Adam knew God so without eating he already knew good he just didn't know about evil till he disobeyed God.
Show me in the Bible where God suddenly turned on everyones fertility and sex drives getting the animals to finally procreate.... all I see happening from eating of the fruit is curses upon creation and you are equating procreation along with the curses because according to you it wasn't possible until Adam and Eve were cursed.

You're the one illogical here. Adam knew God, yes. That doesn't mean Adam knew good. He didn't. One cannot know good without knowing evil. If one isn't known neither is the other. How do you come up with the idea of knowing good without knowing evil?

Asking to show something like that from the Bible is a pointless request. That part cannot be proven nor disproven.

You need to pay attention to what someone says instead of saying "well you said this" and then your version of what I say ends up being not what I said. I never equated procreation with any curse. They couldn't have children until after the fall but this isn't the same as saying the fall itself is the cause of procreation. While variable A and variable B can be related to each other, it doesn't mean variable A is the direct cause of variable B.

Sophrosyne · Jan 22, 2014

LegacyJB said:
You're the one illogical here. Adam knew God, yes. That doesn't mean Adam knew good. He didn't. One cannot know good without knowing evil. If one isn't known neither is the other. How do you come up with the idea of knowing good without knowing evil?

So in other words Adam didn't know that eating the fruit was a non good thing? Adam knew it was wrong to eat of the fruit without eating of the fruit which means he knew that good was to NOT eat it. I will say that he probably wasn't knowledgeable that evil WAS eating it.

Asking to show something like that from the Bible is a pointless request. That part cannot be proven nor disproven.

You need to pay attention to what someone says instead of saying "well you said this" and then your version of what I say ends up being not what I said. I never equated procreation with any curse. They couldn't have children until after the fall but this isn't the same as saying the fall itself is the cause of procreation. While variable A and variable B can be related to each other, it doesn't mean variable A is the direct cause of variable B.

You are the one that suggests that sinning is a good thing and have made the supposition that Adam and Eve were unable to procreate until they sin all of which is just plain speculation and logically falls contrary to God's character. God can create, I don't see a stretch of him making Adam and Eve to be able to procreate from the start. It is possible that God made sure by intervention that Eve didn't get have a child before the serpent tempted her. It is also possible that Adam and Eve knew enough about their bodies to not have sex when she could conceive. Adam wasn't in idiot his mind wasn't clouded by sin from the start I believe he was pretty smart and had an excellent memory and cognizant skills.

southcountry · Jan 22, 2014

There were angels before man was created. They knew good from evil. Even the ones who left their first estate.

Someone got some 'splainin to do.

isleof · Jan 22, 2014

LegacyJB said:
While I've heard people say it was a bad thing, I'm grateful they did what they did. It was a good thing. If they hadn't we wouldn't be here. Adam and Eve would have remained in ignorant bliss forever. Because they would have never know what was bad they would have never known what was good.

What are your thoughts on their actions?

Eve was the deceived.

AnticipateHisComing · Jan 23, 2014

LegacyJB said:
They had no clue how to procreate.
Nothing in the Bible indicates they still would have had children.

WRONG! The Bible clearly states that the plants, fish, birds and people were created and commanded to reproduce.

Plants were created on day 3 to reproduce.
Gen 1: 11 And God said, Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants[e] yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, on the earth. And it was so.

Fish and birds were created on day 5 to reproduce.
Gen1: 22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful and multiply and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.

Man and woman were created on day 6 and commanded by God to reproduce, fill the earth.
Gen1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. 28 And God blessed them. And God said to them, Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.

Ripheus27 · Jan 23, 2014

Does the Bible ever say that sins and transgressions are different matters? (IDK what the Hebrew/Greek word translated as "sin" is except that it might be "hamartanein" or something, the root for "hamartiology," the theology of sinning.) Doesn't it say that through Adam's sin death came into the world?

Sophrosyne · Jan 23, 2014

Ripheus27 said:
Does the Bible ever say that sins and transgressions are different matters? (IDK what the Hebrew/Greek word translated as "sin" is except that it might be "hamartanein" or something, the root for "hamartiology," the theology of sinning.) Doesn't it say that through Adam's sin death came into the world?

I think transgression requires something to transgress... usually a commandment or law. A transgression can be a sin but a sin is not always a transgression sometimes because of the jurisdiction of the law etc.

Ripheus27 · Jan 23, 2014

Isn't the same thing said of sin, though, that we were placed under the Law that grace against sin may abound or something?

LegacyJB · Jan 23, 2014

AnticipateHisComing said:
WRONG! The Bible clearly states that the plants, fish, birds and people were created and commanded to reproduce.

Plants were created on day 3 to reproduce.
Gen 1: 11 And God said, Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants[e] yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, on the earth. And it was so.

Fish and birds were created on day 5 to reproduce.
Gen1: 22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful and multiply and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.

Man and woman were created on day 6 and commanded by God to reproduce, fill the earth.
Gen1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. 28 And God blessed them. And God said to them, Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.

Lol I expected Genesis 1 to be quoted. Sorry but it this isn't where reproduction starts. Read the beginning of chapter 2.

Ripheus27 · Jan 23, 2014

What do you mean by "where reproduction starts"? It's not being said that Adam and Eve immediately, you know, when told to go forth and be fruitful and multiply. It's being said that God made us aware of our capacity for procreation before the Fall, hence the Fall was not necessary for procreation.

Indeed, the thing about Eve being pained by childbirth seems meant to indicate that she would've given birth to children painlessly had she not Fallen.

isleof · Jan 23, 2014

Ripheus27 said:
Isn't the same thing said of sin, though, that we were placed under the Law that grace against sin may abound or something?

Grace is already of God. Who attempted to seperate God from Gods demands?

Don't forget, don't eat of the tree. Sounds like a command to me. Dead Eve.

Ripheus27 · Jan 23, 2014

Amen. The Tree of Knowledge cannot have been the only source of moral knowledge. That doesn't even make sense.

What are your thoughts on Adam and Eve's decision to eat the fruit?

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