What are you politically?

[seebs]

Originally posted by Havoc

Which of the laws and commandments in the bible pertain to Christians and which do not? And what method do you use to determine this? There are many conflicting interpretations among Christians about which of the OT laws are still in effect.

There is a very good thread on this titled "Eternal and Unchanging" over in General Apologetics.

To make a long story short, my answer is:

The rules that apply to Christians are the two rules Christ gave us. "Love God with all your heart, soul, and mind", and "Love thy neighbor as thyself."

What, you ask, about murder, rape, theft, the 10 commandments, and so on?

Well, you see, all of those appear to follow reasonably from the ones given.

The stuff in Romans about Christian Liberty, so far as I can tell, covers this.

I think people like to have rules, so they generalize, both from their own experience and that of other people - but I do not believe that these generalizations are 100% correct. In the end, I think you have to trust your conscience. The theology is that, if you've *really* been born again in Christ, your conscience is quite good. I must admit, so far, it's done pretty well by me.

The rest of the rules? Examples, best understood in terms of who, where, when, why. You can get a lot of good insights from them, and in practice, you are very likely to follow most of the "moral" rules most of the time. ("moral rules", in this case, is shorthand for "rules which affect your interactions with other people directly".)

So, I may wear mixed fabrics, but I don't murder people, I don't commit adultery, and so on... But I listen to a variety of music, most of which many congregations would frown upon, I read nearly anything with words in it, I laugh at allegedly blasphemous jokes... None of that bothers me. I am in no danger from the world.

 

[Havoc]

Hmmm, not too different from the Wiccan Rede actually. "Do as you will, but harm no one"

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by Havoc
Hmmm, not too different from the Wiccan Rede actually. "Do as you will, but harm no one"

Except that, of course, I'm allowed to harm people. I'm just not allowed to harm people for the sake of harming people. Self-defense, defense of others... Lots of things *might* make it okay to harm people.

The other big difference is that I am not allowed to be neutral. I am obliged to *actively* seek to help people. Now, in practice, you probably do that anyway, but Christianity makes it a moral imperative. Note also that loving people is much harder than merely not harming them.

Still, there *is* a basic similarity; I think this testifies to the basic roots of human morality.

 

[caley]

Originally posted by Havoc
Hmmm, not too different from the Wiccan Rede actually. "Do as you will, but harm no one"

That's pretty much the basis of libertarian thought.  I think should be the basis of all political thought. Libertarians call it the Non-Aggression Principle.  You may not initiate aggression against any other human being.  (The use of the word "initiate" allows for self-defense.  You may aggress if someone else initiates aggression against you).  Anarchists like myself take the concept to the logical extreme: governments cannot exist by this principle because the only way for the government to enforce anything is through force i.e. aggression.  Therefore government in and of itself is morally bankrupt.

 

[Havoc]

Originally posted by seebs
Except that, of course, I'm allowed to harm people. I'm just not allowed to harm people for the sake of harming people. Self-defense, defense of others... Lots of things *might* make it okay to harm people.

The other big difference is that I am not allowed to be neutral. I am obliged to *actively* seek to help people. Now, in practice, you probably do that anyway, but Christianity makes it a moral imperative. Note also that loving people is much harder than merely not harming them.

Still, there *is* a basic similarity; I think this testifies to the basic roots of human morality.

I see what your saying Seebs, but I might point out that the Christian principle of "actively seeking to help people" has not always resulted in good things for the people being helped. Even today the "help" many Christians force on others for their own good is not really help from the point of view of the other person.

In regards to defence, allowing yourself to come to harm through inaction would be counter to the Rede as well. Commiting no harm is always the preferable. If that is not possible, then defending the innocent from harm through defence is preferable to allowing them to come to harm through inaction. Also helping others actively is also intrinsic. If I allow someone to starve, or to go cold through inaction, then I am harming them. This is why members of my group (and others) always bring food for the food bank to every ritual.

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by Havoc
I see what your saying Seebs, but I might point out that the Christian principle of "actively seeking to help people" has not always resulted in good things for the people being helped. Even today the "help" many Christians force on others for their own good is not really help from the point of view of the other person.

I see this as more of a matter of competence than of moral goals.

In regards to defence, allowing yourself to come to harm through inaction would be counter to the Rede as well. Commiting no harm is always the preferable. If that is not possible, then defending the innocent from harm through defence is preferable to allowing them to come to harm through inaction. Also helping others actively is also intrinsic. If I allow someone to starve, or to go cold through inaction, then I am harming them. This is why members of my group (and others) always bring food for the food bank to every ritual.

Interesting. So, you consider consequences, not actions themselves? Or, to put it in more specific terms, you're teleological, not deontological?

 

[Havoc]

I'm not sure I understand you. I believe teleological ideals refer to "arguement from design". Do you mean the idea that "the end justifies the means"? That would be Utlitarianism.

I believe I would best be described as "Case based moral reasoning"

Actions in and of themselves are neither good nor bad. It is the consequences of those actions, more so even than the end result, which determine whether they were adviseable or not.

For instance, throwing a rock at a window, good or bad? Depends on the consequences. If the window is owned by someone else, then it is bad. If the window is barring a person from escaping a fire and you breaking it saves their lives it is good. If the building is about to be demolished and the owner has given you permission to break the windows for fun, it is neither good nor bad.

Having said that there are some actions which have so little potential for good and so great a potential for harm that to even consider to do them is very inadviseable. Thus the "end justifies the means" arguement is often applied to things which cause an extraordinary amount of harm in order to come to a good end. The Rede disqualifies that sort of thinking in that the harm would be first considered before the end result.

 

[hraedisc]

deleted to be put in its own thread

 

[healthwoman]

Conservative here !

 

[Defender of the Faith 777]

Conservative.

Republican.

Christian.

 

[undead1]

Far, Far, Far Right. I exist somewhere in the political netherland betwen Stalin and Hitler.

 

[Job_38]

I said conservative, but that is because I tend to sway there more than liberal. However, sometimes liberalism is needed.

 

[Job_38]

haha

 

[lared]

As a Christian, I am no part of this world. Thus, I do involve myself with its politics.

Soon Christ Jesus will destroy all man-made governments and only God's kingdom (governement) will rule over us from heaven.


Side point------------Would it not have been foolish for Noah to spend his time in the politics of his day? Did he not have better things to do?

And so it is true for Christians today. We have been assigned the declaring of the good news of the kingdom in all the inhabited earth.----Matthew 24:14.

How foolish for us to be caught up in a world that will soon be destroyed.

Sincerely, Lared

 

[Job_38]

Lared, the Great Commission is calling for us to be involved in this world. If it be politcal, then great!

Soon Christ Jesus will destroy all man-made governments and only God's kingdom (governement) will rule over us from heaven.



Sure, but when? You do not know. By that logic, I could say evangelism is useless because Christ is coming back.

 

[lared]

Job 38,
The Great Commision that you speak of must be from Satan. He is the ruler of this world.
Jesus, on the other hand, has commisioned his disciples to preach the good news of the kingdom and to be no part of this world.
As far as your last line.....you lost me.
Please request a free home Bible study the next time God's people call at your home.
Sincerely, Lared

 

[LightBearer]

22nd February 2003 at 05:55 PM Job_38 said this in Post #75

Lared, the Great Commission is calling for us to be involved in this world. If it be politcal, then great!

Soon Christ Jesus will destroy all man-made governments and only God's kingdom (governement) will rule over us from heaven.



Sure, but when? You do not know. By that logic, I could say evangelism is useless because Christ is coming back.

Not really.  When he comes back as you say it will not be to evangelise but to destroy God's enemies, vindicating Jehovah and saving his poeple.  So it will go well for his followers but it will mean death for those who who have not taken that opportunity to choose wisley.  And on what basis can they make an informed choice now before that day arrives, thats were evangelising comes in.  The Christian Congregation has the responsibility to preach and teach and to take the good news of the kingdom to the world so that anyone may make an informed decision on whether to serve God or not.  They are under commision from God and Christ to do so.   Getting side tracked in world affairs is one of Satans ployes to get christians to neglect or even abandon this vital life saving work.  Peoples everlasting futures are involved, it is urgent that poeple are informed NOW of what God has promised for the near future and how they can qualify for it before it is to late.  Human politics is rotten to the core and corrupt and as Lared implied, Satan pulls the strings in all human governments, they belong to him. 

 Luke 4:5-7 So he (Satan) brought him up and showed him (Jesus) all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth in an instant of time; and the Devil said to him: “I will give you all this authority and the glory of them, because it has been delivered to me, and to whomever I wish I give it.  You, therefore, if you do an act of worship before me, it will all be yours.” 

1John 5:19 "but the whole world is lying in the [power of the] wicked one".  


Ephesians 2:1-2 "Furthermore, [it is] YOU [God made alive] though YOU were dead in YOUR trespasses and sins, in which YOU at one time walked according to the system of things of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air".

He is this worlds ruler of which Jesus himself confirmed at John 12:31 "Now there is a judging of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out".

Therefore a Christian is commanded and obliged to follow this scripural counsil recorded at James 1:27 "The form of worship that is clean and undefiled from the standpoint of our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation, and to keep oneself without spot from the world". 

Once a person gets involved in the corrupt and dirty buisiness of human politics this is impossible council to fulfill.

Also the apostle John warns us 1 John 2:15-17 "Do not be loving either the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him;  because everything in the world—the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the showy display of one’s means of life—does not originate with the Father, but originates with the world.  Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but he that does the will of God remains forever".

To try and save or work to preserve this world system that God has deemed unfit, would be to oppose his will and like trying to bail out on the Titanic.  Politics, nor any human endevour can save this doomed world.  God is determined to, and will destroy it.  But individuals can be saved out of this world.  The Good News Of The Kingdom is what will help them make an informed decision and put themselves on the road to everlasting life. 

 

[Cecilia]

Conservative...all the way

 

[Memory's Flame]

I'm a conservative Democrat... does that make sense??