What Are Works?

ozso · Jan 3, 2021

In another thread someone wrote: When a Christian says "I'll pray for you," I think, "Why don't you DO something to help." Praying is fine, but if no one does anything, nothing happens.

That seems to be James 14 in a nutshell.

Not that prayer is of no use. But if you can do something to help, you should.

Llewelyn Stevenson · Jan 4, 2021

MMXX said:
Works is a broad term. How would you more narrowly define works as far as daily living goes? Is praising and thanking God works? Is praying works? Reading the Bible? Seeking truth? Giving some cash to a homeless person you pass by?

Why did you take the text out?

It is not works that we should be anxious about, but dead works.

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Here is a definition of work: activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result.

So, if I take some of your list above:

Is praising and thanking God works? No, I do not praise and thank God in order to gain but because he deserves it.

Is praying, reading the Bible, seeking truth works? No, I do not regard these as works because they are like eating and I don't consider eating work, I am doing it because its necessary. Some are paid to eat, they may regard it as works.

Giving some cash to a homeless person you pass by? Once again I do not consider this work, I do it because I want to do it. It is likely he cannot repay me although it has surprisingly happened on occasion.

In life, I have a job, and I consider that work. Why? Because it is chiefly done to achieve a purpose or result. I deliver parcels. It doesn't seem like work because I enjoy it. I deliver newspapers to homes [a dying occupation]. It also most often doesn't seem like work because I enjoy doing it. Nevertheless I do it so that my family is housed, fed and clothed. It is specifically for benefit.

This is where people become confused with "works" in the Scripture.

A righteous man will keep the Law because he is righteous: its his nature. The trouble with the theology of most is that they don't see themselves as truly righteous. To do something by nature is not works, but to do something to appear righteous without actually having it is. Why? Because it is done in order to achieve a purpose or result. These are dead works.

I keep the Law, but I do it by nature and not by command, therefore it is not work to me. I live in the flesh but I am not ruled by the flesh. Most do not understand this because of wrong teaching that says, if you live in the flesh you cannot help but fulfill the lusts of it. Therefore they must admit that they are ruled by the flesh. You will be tempted but you need not be ruled by it. It is actually easy to say, no, when you say it by faith in Jesus Christ.

So then "works", those that are worrying you, are done without faith but, when they are done in faith, they are no longer works, but faith.

I hope this helps you.

ozso · Jan 4, 2021

@Llewelyn Stevenson I removed the text because I didn't want the focus to be on the particular verse I used.

I just wanted people to give some examples of what they think works are. Like how many works that a Christian should be doing can you list?

Works in this case means doing deeds and things that are good in the eyes of the Lord. Things that are beneficial to others, the church, the ministry and the Kingdom etc.

Llewelyn Stevenson · Jan 4, 2021

Ok. No worries.

ozso · Jan 4, 2021

I'm a pragmatist and to me the word "works" is like the word "goods". If someone asked me to go to a supermarket and get some goods, I'd ask them for a list of the goods they're taking about.

FutureAndAHope · Jan 4, 2021

MMXX said:
Works is a broad term. How would you more narrowly define works as far as daily living goes? Is praising and thanking God works? Is praying works? Reading the Bible? Seeking truth? Giving some cash to a homeless person you pass by?

Praying is the most important "work", in my opinion. For it leads to all the other works.

Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Gal 5:16-18 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

But yes all the things you mentioned are works. I will add to the list:

Works

Telling others about Jesus
Loving and spending time with family
Truly caring about other people
Giving to the poor
Giving to the church to help spread the gospel
Obeying the inner prompting of the Holy Spirit
Spending money on resources to spread the gospel

Fullness of Christ · Jan 4, 2021

MMXX said:
Works is a broad term. How would you more narrowly define works as far as daily living goes? Is praising and thanking God works? Is praying works? Reading the Bible? Seeking truth? Giving some cash to a homeless person you pass by?

James gave an example of the works that impact our faith. He wrote: What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. (James 2:14-17)

According to James, the works that affect our faith is our love for our brethren, not in word but in works. As John wrote: By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. But whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him? My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. (1 John 3:16-23)

Faith is like a lamp and our works, our love (especially for the brethren), is the oil which keeps our lamps burning. If we, believers, do not minister to the needs of our brethren our oil will cease and our lamps of faith will die out! And yes, we will lose our salvation.

Jesus Himself said: “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’ “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these [My brethren], you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (Matthew 25:31-46)

According to Jesus Himself, those believers who love their brethren by doing works of love (i.e. ministering to their needs) will receive eternal life, but those believers who do not have these works will go away into everlasting fire.

Notice that Jesus called those believers who do these works righteous. The good works that we do in Christ are accounted to us for righteousness because they are sanctified by the blood of Jesus. As John wrote: Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. (1 John 3:7)

The hyper-grace doctrine is a false doctrine, a doctrine of demons. We abide in God’s Grace by walking by faith, and we walk by faith as we live a life of continual obedience to the commandment of Jesus, which is to love one another (IN WORKS).

God bless!

martymonster · Jan 4, 2021

MMXX said:
What I'm looking for here are examples of what works are. James gave a couple of specific examples. I gave a few in my opening post. What are some other examples?

Deu 4:27 And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you.
Deu 4:28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.
Deu 4:29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

This verse is telling you what works are. Works are the image men's words paint of God. Men's words are their works.

fhansen · Jan 4, 2021

MMXX said:
Works is a broad term. How would you more narrowly define works as far as daily living goes? Is praising and thanking God works? Is praying works? Reading the Bible? Seeking truth? Giving some cash to a homeless person you pass by?

“The only thing that counts is faith working through love.” Gal 5:6

Faith is pretty much worthless without love. Love is what faith is meant to lead to because love is man’s justice or righteousness which is why the greatest commandments are what they are. It’s the ultimate bonding agent in the union with God that faith establishes. And love acts, or works, by its nature, for the good of others such that anything that love does, whether doing good (Rom 2:7) or fulfilling the law (Rom 13:10) or doing the works prepared for us in advance (Eph 2:10) or doing for the “least of these” in Matt 25 are ipso facto right and good, prompted by grace and motivated by the true righteousness that man was made for, aka “the righteousness of God”. It’s only source is God, the font of all goodness, who, alone, can place His law in our minds and write it on our hearts (Jer 31:33), who, alone can cause us to love as He does. But love is necessarily both a gift and a very human choice of embracing and acting on that gift, or else it’s not love.

God judges by the heart, and love is the basis of that judgment while works are the fruit of that love.

ozso · Jan 4, 2021

Fullness of Christ said:
James gave an example of the works that impact our faith. He wrote: What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. (James 2:14-17)

According to James, the works that affect our faith is our love for our brethren, not in word but in works. As John wrote: By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. But whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him? My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. (1 John 3:16-23)

Faith is like a lamp and our works, our love (especially for the brethren), is the oil which keeps our lamps burning. If we, believers, do not minister to the needs of our brethren our oil will cease and our lamps of faith will die out! And yes, we will lose our salvation.

Jesus Himself said: “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’ “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these [My brethren], you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (Matthew 25:31-46)

According to Jesus Himself, those believers who love their brethren by doing works of love (i.e. ministering to their needs) will receive eternal life, but those believers who do not have these works will go away into everlasting fire.

Notice that Jesus called those believers who do these works righteous. The good works that we do in Christ are accounted to us for righteousness because they are sanctified by the blood of Jesus. As John wrote: Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. (1 John 3:7)

The hyper-grace doctrine is a false doctrine, a doctrine of demons. We abide in God’s Grace by walking by faith, and we walk by faith as we live a life of continual obedience to the commandment of Jesus, which is to love one another (IN WORKS).

God bless!

In Matthew 25:32 it says that all the nations will be gathered before Him. Not all the believers or all of His brethren. All the nations are whom He is addressing.

What I wonder is does all the nations mean everyone on Earth, or does it mean all the Nations of Israel?

Gregory Thompson · Jan 4, 2021

MMXX said:
Works is a broad term. How would you more narrowly define works as far as daily living goes? Is praising and thanking God works? Is praying works? Reading the Bible? Seeking truth? Giving some cash to a homeless person you pass by?

The letter of James gives a very specific context:

James 2
14 ¶ What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

In the passage around James 2:17 someone is trying to imitate how Jesus would speak miracles into existence and be deluded into thinking that would help someone who needs food or clothing, you know - since after speaking that, nothing happened?

So instead of just saying "I'll pray for you" also live by faith and do something to help appears to be what the passage is saying.

SPF · Jan 4, 2021

MMXX said:
Works is a broad term. How would you more narrowly define works as far as daily living goes?

Works is a broad term because it refers to literally every action you perform, whether outwardly or inwardly. Everything we do as Christians matter, all the time. So the question is, are your works, the things you do every day oriented towards yourself, or towards God and others?

MMXX said:
In another thread someone wrote: When a Christian says "I'll pray for you," I think, "Why don't you DO something to help." Praying is fine, but if no one does anything, nothing happens.

That seems to be James 14 in a nutshell.

Not that prayer is of no use. But if you can do something to help, you should.

I find that people who say things like that, and then the people that agree with it are typically the people that do not have a very robust prayer life.

MMXX said:
I just wanted people to give some examples of what they think works are. Like how many works that a Christian should be doing can you list?

This sounds legalistic. I don't ever get up in the morning and think about how many works I should be doing. Or thinking of a list of works I should be doing. In fact, when it comes to my relationship with Christ, it's been years since I even had an underlying motivation to please God.

You see, what we think about ourselves and our relationship with Christ is what essentially drives our actions. The most basic question is this - Do you view yourself as a Sinner who was saved? Or do you view yourself as a Saint who sins? I'll give you a hint - you should view yourself as a Saint who sins. Sinning less, and doing good works should be byproducts of our relationship with Christ. Sin management never works, and living out of a works based faith leads to bondage and disappointment.

The simple answer is to cling to what Scripture says about us now. That we are forgiven, that we are redeemed, that we are Saints, that we are holy, now. Bottom line, the more we learn to Trust Christ and to Trust what what He says about us is True, now - the more we will act out of that, the more we will have good works.

I think the entire mindset and premise behind this topic is incorrect.

ozso · Jan 4, 2021

Michael Collum said:
The letter of James gives a very specific context:

James 2
14 ¶ What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

In the passage around James 2:17 someone is trying to imitate how Jesus would speak miracles into existence and be deluded into thinking that would help someone who needs food or clothing, you know - since after speaking that, nothing happened?

So instead of just saying "I'll pray for you" also live by faith and do something to help appears to be what the passage is saying.

James 2 isn't the only place works are mentioned in the Bible though.

Fullness of Christ · Jan 4, 2021

MMXX said:
In Matthew 25:32 it says that all the nations will be gathered before Him. Not all the believers or all of His brethren. All the nations are whom He is addressing.

What I wonder is does all the nations mean everyone on Earth, or does it mean all the Nations of Israel?

The Greek word used for nations is ‘ethne’, which refers to Gentile nations. The sheep are the believers in the Gentile nations who follow Jesus, their Shepherd, by obeying His commandment to love one another in works. The goats are the believers in the Gentile nations who do not obey Jesus’ commandment to love the brethren. We know that both the sheep and the goats are believers because they call Him ‘Lord’. The goats are those believers whom Jesus spoke about when when He said, “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ (Matthew 7:21-23)

Daniel Marsh · Jan 4, 2021

MMXX said:
What I'm looking for here are examples of what works are. James gave a couple of specific examples. I gave a few in my opening post. What are some other examples?

Hebrews 11

Daniel Marsh · Jan 4, 2021

read to here

ozso · Jan 4, 2021

Fullness of Christ said:
The Greek word used for nations is ‘ethne’, which refers to Gentile nations. The sheep are the believers in the Gentile nations who follow Jesus, their Shepherd, by obeying His commandment to love one another in works. The goats are the believers in the Gentile nations who do not obey Jesus’ commandment to love the brethren. We know that both the sheep and the goats are believers because they call Him ‘Lord’. The goats are those believers whom Jesus spoke about when when He said, “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ (Matthew 7:21-23)

I was wondering about the word used for nations but hadn't gotten to looking it up.

So it sounds like you're saying salvation is totally dependent upon this particular set of works.

Philippians 2:11 tells us that everyone everywhere will call Jesus Christ Lord.

And I'm sure you know that many attribute Mt 7:21-23 as being about those who thought they could earn their way into heaven through their works, rather than through repentance and faith in Christ alone.

Also it's been pointed out that Jesus said to them "I never knew you". So, and I'm not meaning to be sarcastic, does that mean Jesus doesn't know those who put their faith in Him until they perform these works?

ozso · Jan 4, 2021

Daniel Marsh said:
Hebrews 11

Excellent. Verses 17 and 31 gave the same exact examples James gave.

Hebrews 11:17 = James 2:21 and Hebrews 11:31 = James 2:25

I love that about the Bible, how verses written by different people intermesh that way.

Sunshinee777 · Jan 4, 2021

MMXX said:
Works is a broad term. How would you more narrowly define works as far as daily living goes? Is praising and thanking God works? Is praying works? Reading the Bible? Seeking truth? Giving some cash to a homeless person you pass by?

Everything which edifies Jesus is works. Everything you do for Jesus is works, even every little thing. It's not just money or food, but for example encouraging other people, helping to spread positivity where there is just anxiety and fear. Especially these days when fear is playing big part of many lives, we need people who encourage, spread positivity and spread the gospel.

Gregory Thompson · Jan 4, 2021

MMXX said:
James 2 isn't the only place works are mentioned in the Bible though.

However, this was the context of the original version of the OP and was the basis for discussion up until this point.

If you wanted to discuss another context, I'll take a look and give my perspective.

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