What are we to do respecting the Ten Commandments?

timothyu · Jan 3, 2025

KevinT said:
But I don't think it is fair to say that all teaching is nothing but a "doctrine of man".

Doctrines of man avoid what God taught, to reject the self serving ways first started in the Garden that even Christianity succumbed to. Instead He simply said return to putting His will first, which first and foremost says be servants to Him and then to everyone, especially everyone in need including enemies. That about sums it all up. The rest is just man expanding the forest with their own trees.,

KevinT · Jan 3, 2025

ozso said:
Well that's the very point I was making. Doctrines of man take what is taught by God and shape it to fit that man-made doctrine. Therefore the adherents to man-made doctrine will insist they are only following the words of God. In this thread for example there are adherents to the doctrine of Ellen White criticizing others for following man-made doctrine, and insisting that they're the ones only following the words of God.

I think this is argument is spurious. I am a Seventh-day Adventist (SDA), so I feel this criticism is at least partly aimed at me.

Martin Luther was an influential religious leader and father of the Protestant Reformation. Luther emphasized salvation by grace etc., and it made sense to his followers and ring true with what they read in the Bible. Does that mean that Protestants are all following man-made doctrines because they read the scriptures with a Protestant point of view? No. Protestants look to the scriptures themselves to see if the things Luther said were true or not. They don't say they are saved by grace because Luther said so, but because they find this in the Bible.

Likewise, Ellen White (EGW), was one of several leaders that founded the nascent SDA denomination in the late 1800's. One of her teachings was to point out that the 10 commandments specifies the 7th day, not the 1st day, as the day that should be held holy to God. I have looked for myself and agree that indeed the 10 commandments do not say to rest and worship on Sunday. But I never say this this is true because EGW says so, but rather because of what I read for myself in the Bible.

If anyone on this thread has appealed to EGW as a source of authority, then we could have a different discussion. But everything I have written in this thread has been based on the Bible only. And I find it to be an unfair argument to imply that my reading of the 10 commandments should be discounted because a religious reformer taught it, and that it must therefore be somehow a "man-made doctrine."

KT

Xeno.of.athens · Jan 3, 2025

KevinT said:
There are some fundamentals. I.e. God directly authored the 10 commandments, and presumably gave direction through His prophets over time. These were then interpreted by mankind, possibly incorrectly. But I don't think it is fair to say that all teaching is nothing but a "doctrine of man".

Even the ten commandments were recorded in scripture, written by Moses, a man.

timothyu · Jan 3, 2025

Xeno.of.athens said:
Even the ten commandments were recorded in scripture, written by Moses, a man.

Moses recorded what was given to him, yes. But did he expand on them?

KevinT · Jan 3, 2025

Xeno.of.athens said:
Even the ten commandments were recorded in scripture, written by Moses, a man.

So where do you stand then? Do you think anything is knowable?

There are some who argue that we could all just be simulations running somewhere in a computer, and that nothing outside ourselves is real. I can't disprove that, so what do I do? I move forward with what seems most reasonable.

KT

KevinT · Jan 3, 2025

timothyu said:
Moses recorded what was given to him, yes. But did he expand on them?

Christ said exactly that:

Deut 24:1 If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, ...

Matthew 19:8 Jesus replied, “Moses allowed you to divorce your wives because your hearts are unyielding. But it wasn’t that way from the beginning.

In my mind, God gave Moses authority to be leader over His people. Moses came up with the best laws he could with the understanding God had given him. But there is thereby a distinction between what Moses taught, and the original plan of God.

KT

Xeno.of.athens · Jan 3, 2025

KevinT said:
If you had been born in a Jewish community, you would likely be loyal to that camp.

Stop right there! If what you wrote were true then no one would change, ever!

KevinT said:
I feel in this thread that you have been honest about your position and tried to be logical. I thank you for that.

You are welcome, I try to answer what people write and some accept that, but others reject it because, I think, they want me to become like them.

Xeno.of.athens · Jan 3, 2025

KevinT said:
So where do you stand then? Do you think anything is knowable?

Yes, I do, I believe what the holy scriptures teach but I do not trust my private opinions above the teaching of the Church because private opinions change like the wind, one day I will reason that X sounds right and then I'll hear an alternative view that seems convincing or maybe read something new and think maybe my old view was too limited and make some changes, but what the Church teaches has the advantage of many prayerful minds examining the matter and prayerfully reaching a conclusion about it. I think I trust a well-considered and documented view that has stood the test of time above my fleeting opinions. Which do you trust?

Xeno.of.athens · Jan 3, 2025

timothyu said:
Moses recorded what was given to him, yes. But did he expand on them?

Possibly not. We have only what is in the man-written scriptures to go by.

timothyu · Jan 3, 2025

Xeno.of.athens said:
We have only what is in the man-written scriptures to go by.

But again he did not expand on them as man often does in making their own doctrines. Moses lost forty years as it was, for putting his will ahead of God's so I doubt he would chance adding to the word of God.

JEBofChristTheLord · Jan 3, 2025

We have only what is in the man-written scriptures to go by.

Again with the "we have only". No, we do not only have what is in the man-written scriptures to go by. We have that which is far more. We have Scripture which deserves the capital S, which are holy unto God, because Christ the Lord said it must be fulfilled.

Xeno.of.athens · Jan 3, 2025

JEBofChristTheLord said:
Again with the "we have only". No, we do not only have what is in the man-written scriptures to go by. We have that which is far more. We have Scripture which deserves the capital S, which are holy unto God, because Christ the Lord said it must be fulfilled.

Scripture means writings, and it doesn't get a capital letter as if it were a proper noun or as if it were God.

timothyu · Jan 3, 2025

At least scripture is one step away from God. Far closer than anything else man has created including religion

Xeno.of.athens · Jan 3, 2025

timothyu said:
At least scripture is one step away from God. Far closer than anything else man has created including religion

Except for the Church which is the body of Christ, and he is God.

JEBofChristTheLord · Jan 3, 2025

Xeno.of.athens said:
Scripture means writings, and it doesn't get a capital letter as if it were a proper noun or as if it were God.

I wonder if you care that Christ the Lord said that the Scripture must be fulfilled.

timothyu · Jan 3, 2025

Xeno.of.athens said:
Except for the Church which is the body of Christ, and he is God.

Consider the earliest followers of Jesus. They were our roots. These very earliest followers were not a religion but a way of life. They did not gather in their own building. They did not build an empire. They did not see spreading the message as a way of controlling mankind or as a use of free enterprise. They didn't claim to represent God but instead did His will. They simply did what Jesus told them to do, and somebody wrote a book about them

Xeno.of.athens · Jan 3, 2025

JEBofChristTheLord said:
I wonder if you care that Christ the Lord said that the Scripture must be fulfilled.

What he said, in English translation, is "this scripture must be fulfilled" see Luke 22:37

Xeno.of.athens · Jan 3, 2025

timothyu said:
not a religion but a way of life.

Religion is a way of living. Church buildings are buildings, not the Church.

timothyu · Jan 3, 2025

Xeno.of.athens said:
Religion is a way of living. Church buildings are buildings, not the Church.

Yes it is but not in the same way as daily life... Jesus taught a daily way of life.. servitude to God and each other, not to a religion.

Xeno.of.athens · Jan 3, 2025

timothyu said:
Yes it is but not in the same way as daily life... Jesus taught a daily way of life.. servitude to God and each other, not to a religion.

I am sure that Jesus taught about worshipping God and not about paying rent or going grocery shopping.

What are we to do respecting the Ten Commandments?

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I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.

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I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.

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to the Lord

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.

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I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.

to the Lord

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I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.

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I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.

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