What are we doing?

[cornetto]

People do not see themselves as bad people. For the most part, people think they are good. But the fact is that none of us are good. This makes bringing the message of Christ difficult in the United States today. When we give up to fighting Him, God reveals to us ourselves in comparison to Christ, to see just how fallen we (man) are in comparison. This by design is a critical step in knowing Christ. Therefore, the church battles these things and in turn makes its own (body) feel guilty and like a failure. By much of what is said in many church pulpits, every person in the congregation should be at the alter and on there knees every Sunday. However, accepting this action as an answer would indicate there was something we could do, like coming to the alter.  Ever feel like, "Gosh I'm not doing enough, " or "I haven't prayed in week, man am I out of God's favor." These ideas suggest assumptions that contradict God's character. If because of Christ, God accepts me, and I am His child, and I am one of the saints, and I am part of His body, and I am in Him, and He is in me - but wait, all of a sudden I'm not good enough. Thanks be to God, that it is Christ who is in us that makes us anything and everything. But not for Him, we would be lost, dead, and hopeless. 

God already accepted us guilty and a failure.  Right?

How can the church approach this issue?

 

[Havoc]

But the fact is that none of us are good.

This is not a fact, this is a belief. This is exactly where your problem lies.

Christianity is not on the decline because people are failing to see the "truth" of God, it's on the decline because the general populace has come to the point where it is educated enough to see the difference between fact and belief. If you try to represent your beliefs as if they were proven fact people will dismiss you as a religious nut. If you present your beliefs as what they are, beliefs, you will get a much more positive result.

 

[Matthew9:9]

Havoc, as an ex-Pagan, I can attest to the fact that Wiccans and other Pagans are just as guilty of all your complaints as any Christians. One reason I left the "Pagan Community" was because of the smugness, superiority, and Christian-hating that these "enlightened" people manifested day in and day out.

Instead of condemning faiths other than your own, as you complain about when Christians do it, why not help to get your own house in order.

BTW, I was a very active Pagan for years in a major metropolitan area with one of the largest Pagan populations in America, as well as an Initiated Witch doing full Coven work, so don't tell me that I just hung out with a bad crowd.

 

 

 

[Havoc]

My experience is quite the opposite, as an ex-Christian. One of the most pervasive beliefs of the Pagan community is that "all paths lead to the Divine". This pretty much precludes the "my way or hell's highway" mentality.

Are there smug, arrogant Pagans? Of course there are. But you won't find even many of them saying they have the "absolute truth". That's a particulary Abramic manifestation. Are many Pagans angry at Christians? You bet, considering the constant persecution, degradation, and false witness they are subjected to by some Christians it's not hard to understand why.

But my comment was specifically referring toward people who misuse the word fact and apply it to a belief. You will rarely find a Wiccan who does that, it's just not in our belief system.

 

[seebs]

I have met pagans who insisted that, at the least, Christians were *necessarily* wrong. I don't think they were representative.

 

[Matthew9:9]

Havoc, you are either naive or are being disingenuous. "Angry at Christians" doesn't cover the half of it. It is outright hate and it is not hidden.
And certainly the idea that "there are many paths up the mountain" is a nice idea, and one that many of the Pagans I knew claimed to hold, it was not a sincerely held belief, as evidenced by their other words and actions.
I speak not only of my own Coveners, but of the entire congregation I served, and also of the Pagan websites I used to frequent.
Christians are mocked and derided as stupid "sheeple," as "Jesus Krispies," as "mouth breathing morons," etc.
And every time a Pagan asserts that Judaism and Christianity are "oppressive," "stupid," and "wrong," (and in my experience it happens pretty darn frequently) they are indeed stating that their way of thinking is the One True Way.

And, as an ex-Pagan, I can attest to the fact that the allegations of ritual abuse, of Satan wortship, etc. are false. But the assertions made by Christians that Paganism is a feel-good faith full of do-whatever-you-like thea/ology is true. I know the Rede states "An it harm none, do what you Will," but the practical application always boils down to "do whatever feels good at the moment." I saw too many kids without Dads, too many marriages destroyed by infidelity, too many "open marriages" which fell apart because someone fell in love with the wrong person.

I am aware that these things also happen to non-Pagans, but only in Neo-Paganism are these things ensconced in the theology. The Goddess of the Wiccans states that "all acts of love and pleasure are [her] rituals."

That's why I get hacked off when I hear Neo-Pagans complain about Christians being hypocrites or of being narrow-minded.

 

[Havoc]

Hmmm... funny that your experience is so much different than mine. I wasn't aware that there was a "Goddess of the Wiccans". I was under the impression that there were many different Goddesses among many different Trads. Perhaps my 14 years as a Witch have all been in vain, including my Ordination.

What you've told me seems to indicate theat you were a Gardnerian. Perhaps you are under the mistaken impression that Gardnerian id the only Wiccan Tradition? My experience is that serious Witches take the responsibility portion of the Rede very seriously, perhaps your "coven" was less than serious?

Are there congregaations of Witches such as you have described? Undoubtedly so, just as there are congregations of Christians that are dysfunctional. But just as it is rare in Christians, it is also rare in Wiccans. Wiccans as a group have no more nor any less problems and difficulties than any other group, including Christians. We are, after all, humans too.

Are there Wiccans who hate Christians, probably. Christians continually tell us that we worship Satan, that we have no right to raise our children, that we commit murders, that we are demon possessed or even worse just stupid, that we should be killed outright according to mosaic laws. Most Covens and Groups do not allow Christian bashing, not because we don't think Christians have earned it, but becuase it's bad for the energy of the group. A good example of the general feeling of most Witches is embodied in atricle 10 of "The American Council of Witches Principles of Wiccan Belief (1974)"

Our only animosity toward Christianity, or toward any other religion or philosophy of life, is to the extent that its institutions have claimed to be "the one true right and only way" and have sought to deny freedom to others and to suppress other ways of religious practices and belief.

I find it interesting that many of your claims not only run counter to my extensive experience but also mirror many of the criticisms levelled at us by Christians who know nothing about us. Since the SRA fell through the floor many Christians have sought to demonise us in other ways, one of which is to attack our basic moral character and our mental health and ability to raise our families.

I often find that when a supposed ex-witch levels accusations at us that run counter to the experience of most of us, that person often has inflated their actual experience with Wicca. As has been seen in the well publicised fraud cases there is a motive to stretch the truth a bit in this regard as it makes for a much more exciting testimony. I'm not saying this is the case with you but I must say it rather walks like a duck.

 

[Evangelion]

Will the real "Wiccans" please stand up?

 

[Evangelion]

Is there any particular reason why "Wiccans" pilfer so many of their ideas from Celtic culture and folklore? I mean... the constant resort to eclectic cultural theft is just a bit obvious, you know.

 

[Havoc]

Well Considering I'm a Celtic Wiccan of Celtic descent, I'd say it's probably OK with us. If your worried about Cultural theft of religions perhaps you'd care to give up all your Christian holidays and all the trappings?

Is it just me or are you really stretching to find something valid to complain about in Wicca?

 

[Havoc]

Originally posted by Evangelion
Will the real "Wiccans" please stand up?

Certainly *stands up*...

Anything else?

 

[Matthew9:9]

Havoc, I've no reason to inflate my experience with Wicca. I don't write books about my experiences or have a special ministry to convert Pagans. If you believe that I'm fibbing, so be it.

As regards the Wiccan goddess, I thought that the name Aradia might ring a bell with you. Perhaps it doesn't. I am fully aware of the dictum that "all godesses are one goddess and all gods are one god," but for some reason I never met anyone in the Pagan community who felt that Jesus was one of those gods. Must be that openness and acceptance of all paths that you mention.

Nope, I wasn't Gardnerian, but a close cousin. And I saw alot of lip service being paid to the Rede while I saw alot of harm being done in the pursuit of selfish pleasure. That's one reason I left.

Yes, Christians also have similar problems, as I have acknowledged, but my point is that the Wiccans (the traditions to which I have been exposed) and many other similar non-Wiccan Pagans believe that these harmful behaviours are part of getting closer to their deities.

Perhaps it's the just the fact that Christians have had a couple of thousand years to develop their theology, while Wicca has only had about 60 years? I believe it possible that Wicca may mature into a grand religion in a couple of hundred years. 

Whether it makes you feel better to believe that I am lying about my experience, or perhaps you hope that Christians on this board will not believe me, it doesn't matter. As I said, I'm no crusader against Wicca. It really doesn't bother me that you are a Wiccan of whatever tradition and that you find fulfilment in it. I do feel that I must respond when I see someone saying things about the superiority of Pagan (incl. Wiccan) theology and praxis, or about how "open and accepting" Pagans are toward other faiths, or any other statement which sounds equally half-true.

 

Evangelion, good question. While some traditions of Witchcraft may have some roots in the distant past, Wicca is a different animal. Traditional Witchcraft has most often been a set of practices - healing, spells, herb lore, etc., not usually having a well-developed theology. Wicca, however, has cobbled together a theology based upon some extremely hypothetical theories about some great Matriarchal age of Goddess worship and peaceful agrarian co-existence. (There's an excellent article in the Atlantic discussing this, at http://www.theatlantic.com/cgi-bin/o/issues/2001/01/allen.htm) Or do a Google search for an article titled "The Scholars and the Goddess" by Charlotte Allen, published in the Atlantic Monthly in 2001.

Why Celtic? I've no idea. Just as well ask why the Goddess of the Wiccans (Aradia) is Italian while their God is English (Cernunnos).

 

 

[Evangelion]

Havoc -

Well Considering I'm a Celtic Wiccan of Celtic descent, I'd say it's probably OK with us.

Are you? Are you really? How terribly fascinating.

Please desribe your "Celtic descent" for me, and explain how the roots of your particular version of "Wicca" somehow fits into all of this.

Thanks.

If your worried about Cultural theft of religions perhaps you'd care to give up all your Christian holidays and all the trappings?

My what? I don't celebrate any Christian holidays. What on Earth are you talking about?

Do you actually know what I believe, or are you just generalising in the hope of scoring a hit?

Is it just me or are you really stretching to find something valid to complain about in Wicca?

Nope, I'm not stretching at all. There's really no need. And incidentally, I studied "Wicca" and neo-paganism at university, during a course on "Myth, Ritual, and Magic."

How about you?

 

[Evangelion]

Havoc -

Certainly *stands up*...

So you're a true "Wiccan"? OK, so what about all those other people who believe something different?

Anything else?

Yes. Please provide me with a comprehensive history of your verion of "Wicca", complete with a consistent, unbroken chain of tradition from the ancient Celts to the modern day.

Thankyou.

 

[Evangelion]

Matthew9:9 -

Evangelion, good question.

Thanks.

While some traditions of Witchcraft may have some roots in the distant past

That certainly is true of traditions outside Western culture.

Wicca is a different animal.

Agreed.

Traditional Witchcraft has most often been a set of practices - healing, spells, herb lore, etc., not usually having a well-developed theology.

I would go further than that. I would deny that there was ever such a thing as "traditional witchcraft" in Western culture. The closest you'll ever get to it, is the shamanism of the Icelandic tribes, and the local village "wise woman" of the Picts, Celts, and ancient Britons.

There's no such thing as a genuine "witchcraft" tradition in Western culture.

Wicca, however, has cobbled together a theology based upon some extremely hypothetical theories about some great Matriarchal age of Goddess worship and peaceful agrarian co-existence. (There's an excellent article in the Atlantic discussing this, at theatlantic.com/cgi-bin/o/issues/2001/01/allen) Since I can't yet post URLs, if you're interested in reading the article just put the "http://www." at the beginning and ".htm" at the end. Or do a Google search for an article titled "The Scholars and the Goddess" by Charlotte Allen, published in the Atlantic Monthly in 2001.

Oh, I agree. I studied this at university.

Why Celtic? I've no idea.

Because it's trendy. People love those cute Gaelic names.

Just as well ask why the Goddess of the Wiccans (Aradia) is Italian while their God is English (Cernunnos).

LOL, exactly.

 

[cornetto]

What is being lost here is a definition of truth. To my knowledge pagans do not have a universal bible or history of obedience to their God that is consistent and based on a comprehensive law. There are handbooks, but these pagan religions are highly individual -optimizing relativism as opposed to absolutism.

Most Covens and Groups do not allow Christian bashing, not because we don't think Christians have earned it, but becuase it's bad for the energy of the group. A good example of the general feeling of most Witches is embodied in atricle 10 of "The American Council of Witches Principles of Wiccan Belief (1974)"

As for Christians, he have an explanation for the beginning, middle, and end, with everything in between. The law was comprehensive, and the Hebrews respected these laws. Of course, as prophecied, Christ came in God's perfect plan and completely fullfilled the Law, and then refined it in His sermon on the mount to such a degree as to illustate how it cannot be upheld except through Him (Christ) - the way, the truth, and the light.

So Christianity is an absolute religion, yes.  Christians believe that salvation can only be gifted through Christ Jesus.  But futhermore, we are saying that we believe in the truth, live by the truth, and know the truth which is Christ - He is truth. 

What pagans are saying is that there is no truth.  That is what you argue to us - that we don't hold the truth.  That is no argument however when there is countless evidence in the favor of God, Christ, and His master plan.  It has been fortold, the past reveals history, and Christians who know Christ give living evidence of Christ that is alive today.  For something to be the truth, by logical nature, everything else is wrong.  If the pagan religion does not claim its own truth, then it eliminates itself automatically, because it is therefore false.

 

 

[Havoc]

Originally posted by Evangelion
Havoc -



Are you? Are you really? How terribly fascinating.

Please desribe your "Celtic descent" for me, and explain how the roots of your particular version of "Wicca" somehow fits into all of this.

Thanks.

I'm Irish, that should take care of the Celtic descent issue. My particular version of Wicca worships the Celtic Pantheon of my Ancestors.

My what? I don't celebrate any Christian holidays. What on Earth are you talking about?

Do you actually know what I believe, or are you just generalising in the hope of scoring a hit?

The subject was the supposed cultural theft of Pagans. I was referring to the "cultural theft" of Pagan Holidays by Christians. If you choose to take it to mean I was referring to you personally I'm very sorry.

Nope, I'm not stretching at all. There's really no need. And incidentally, I studied "Wicca" and neo-paganism at university, during a course on "Myth, Ritual, and Magic."

How about you?

Well, I have to admit that your one course in University far outweighs my fourteen years as a Witch, my ordination as a Minister, and my formal studies of Celtic History in Military College. I bow to your greater experience.

 

[Havoc]

Originally posted by Matthew9:9
Havoc, I've no reason to inflate my experience with Wicca. I don't write books about my experiences or have a special ministry to convert Pagans. If you believe that I'm fibbing, so be it.

As regards the Wiccan goddess, I thought that the name Aradia might ring a bell with you. Perhaps it doesn't. I am fully aware of the dictum that "all godesses are one goddess and all gods are one god," but for some reason I never met anyone in the Pagan community who felt that Jesus was one of those gods. Must be that openness and acceptance of all paths that you mention.

Nope, I wasn't Gardnerian, but a close cousin. And I saw alot of lip service being paid to the Rede while I saw alot of harm being done in the pursuit of selfish pleasure. That's one reason I left.

Yes, Christians also have similar problems, as I have acknowledged, but my point is that the Wiccans (the traditions to which I have been exposed) and many other similar non-Wiccan Pagans believe that these harmful behaviours are part of getting closer to their deities.

Perhaps it's the just the fact that Christians have had a couple of thousand years to develop their theology, while Wicca has only had about 60 years? I believe it possible that Wicca may mature into a grand religion in a couple of hundred years. 

Whether it makes you feel better to believe that I am lying about my experience, or perhaps you hope that Christians on this board will not believe me, it doesn't matter. As I said, I'm no crusader against Wicca. It really doesn't bother me that you are a Wiccan of whatever tradition and that you find fulfilment in it. I do feel that I must respond when I see someone saying things about the superiority of Pagan (incl. Wiccan) theology and praxis, or about how "open and accepting" Pagans are toward other faiths, or any other statement which sounds equally half-true. 

Evangelion, good question. While some traditions of Witchcraft may have some roots in the distant past, Wicca is a different animal. Traditional Witchcraft has most often been a set of practices - healing, spells, herb lore, etc., not usually having a well-developed theology. Wicca, however, has cobbled together a theology based upon some extremely hypothetical theories about some great Matriarchal age of Goddess worship and peaceful agrarian co-existence. (There's an excellent article in the Atlantic discussing this, at http://www.theatlantic.com/cgi-bin/o/issues/2001/01/allen.htm) Or do a Google search for an article titled "The Scholars and the Goddess" by Charlotte Allen, published in the Atlantic Monthly in 2001.

Why Celtic? I've no idea. Just as well ask why the Goddess of the Wiccans (Aradia) is Italian while their God is English (Cernunnos).

 

There's a very good reason for Christians to inflate their experience with what they call the occult. History has shown that Christians with more exciting testimonies gain greater stature in the Christian community.

Wiccans do not use "harmful behaviour" to get closer to the Divine. That would be contrary to the Rede. Perhaps your particular "Coven" was dysfunctional, and not truely representative of Wicca?

Aradia is an interesting book but I'm not sure why you bring it up. It was written by Charles Leland in 1899, supposedly from a handwritten manuscript delivered to him by a woman named Maddelena on New Year's Day, 1897. It is a book, supposedly of Italian traditional Witchcraft of the Tuscan Region of Italy. Unfortunatly it really desn't bear a lot of resemblance to the results of anthropological studies of those same traditions. Aradia is generally not taken very seriously by modern Wiccan's, although I understand Stregheria still make use of it. It is commonly quoted by ill informed Christians who make th ridiculous claim that it is the "Bible" of Witchcraft and all Witches must follow it. It is heavily Christianised, which is understandable considering the time, and so is of little use to us. Aradia is certainly not the "Goddess of the Witches", if indeed there is such a being. The Goddess you keep referring to is probably what we refer to as "The Goddess". She is a Archetype, and has no association with one particular book or Tradition. Once a name is applied then it is no longer the archetypical Goddess, but rather a named Goddess of a particular Tradition. I have never prayed to Aradia, she is not my Goddess.

You are correct about one thing, Witchcraft is not religion. Witchcraft is the Craft of Witches, and mostly manifests itself in traditional healing. Wicca, on the other hand, is the modern expression of a wide range of religious beliefs stemming from the pre-Christian beliefs of many European Cultures. I, for instance, worship the Celtic Pantheon. I have Wiccan friends who are Asatru, they worship the Norse Pantheon. We certainly don't believe thay are the same Gods and Goddesses, although we may believe they are manifestations of the Divine.

You seem to under the mistaken impression that there is a single religion called "Wicca". Unfortunately this is not even close to the truth. Each Wiccan tradition is a complete religion in and of itself, with it's own Dieties, it's own practices, and it's own culture. Many people with limited knowledge of the subject make that assumption based on the fact that we allow ourselves to be grouped under one name. The reason for that is we generally don't care to slaughter each other over an arguement about how many angels can dance of the head of a pin. Just because the Wiccan Traditions get along without judgementalism (generally speaking, although there  are the typical human exceptions), does not mean we have the same beliefs. I would have expected an ex-Wiccan to have known these basic ideas.

BTW: Cernunnos is not an English God. The name Cernunnos is particulary associated with Continental Celts. He is also NOT the "God of Witches".

 

[Havoc]

Originally posted by Evangelion
Havoc -

So you're a true "Wiccan"? OK, so what about all those other people who believe something different?

Yes. Please provide me with a comprehensive history of your verion of "Wicca", complete with a consistent, unbroken chain of tradition from the ancient Celts to the modern day.

Thankyou.

Yes, I am a "true" Wiccan, are you a "true" Christian? I believe the same as other Wiccans, that there are many Traditions of Wicca that worship many different Gods and Goddesses.

I never claimed that there was an unbroken chain of tradition of tradition from the ancient Celts  to the modern day. Where exactly did you get that idea from?

There certainly was a break, caused by the sword arm of a particularly bloodthirsty religion of which I'm sure you are familiar. What we are trying to do is recreate the traditions and faiths of our Ancestors. My Tradition of Wicca belongs to a group called Celtic Reconstructionalism which seeks to recreate and study pre-Christian Celtic Culture using archological and anthropological evidence, ancient texts, and surviving folklore. We are under no mistaken impression that we will be able to crate a mirror of that religion but that isn't the point. We worship the old Gods in a maner that is consistent with that of our Ancestors.

 

[Havoc]

Originally posted by cornetto
What is being lost here is a definition of truth. To my knowledge pagans do not have a universal bible or history of obedience to their God that is consistent and based on a comprehensive law. There are handbooks, but these pagan religions are highly individual -optimizing relativism as opposed to absolutism.

As for Christians, he have an explanation for the beginning, middle, and end, with everything in between. The law was comprehensive, and the Hebrews respected these laws. Of course, as prophecied, Christ came in God's perfect plan and completely fullfilled the Law, and then refined it in His sermon on the mount to such a degree as to illustate how it cannot be upheld except through Him (Christ) - the way, the truth, and the light.

So Christianity is an absolute religion, yes.  Christians believe that salvation can only be gifted through Christ Jesus.  But futhermore, we are saying that we believe in the truth, live by the truth, and know the truth which is Christ - He is truth. 

What pagans are saying is that there is no truth.  That is what you argue to us - that we don't hold the truth.  That is no argument however when there is countless evidence in the favor of God, Christ, and His master plan.  It has been fortold, the past reveals history, and Christians who know Christ give living evidence of Christ that is alive today.  For something to be the truth, by logical nature, everything else is wrong.  If the pagan religion does not claim its own truth, then it eliminates itself automatically, because it is therefore false.

 

The arguement of relativism is not really of very much value here. Your assertation that Pagans say there is no truth is false. I'm sure there may be some Pagans that say it, but then there are some Christians that say that truth is relative too.

Christians have a bad habit of saying that anyone who doesn't belive that their God is the "absolute truth" is a relativist. That is also untrue. It is quite obvious to most people that there is an "absolute truth", ie a way things are. Christians want to make the illogical leap from "there is an absolute truth" to "and we have it" as if anyone who agrees with absoluteism must therefore agree with their religion. Truth is not relative... period. Human perception of truth, however, is relative in the etreme. Christianity cannot claaim to be the "absolute truth" because it is a human perception of truth that has not been proven to be "absolute"

It is not only possible to understand "absolute truth" without being a Christian, it is common.