What are we doing?

[Evangelion]

Havoc -

I'm Irish, that should take care of the Celtic descent issue.

LOL, that's exactly what I thought you'd say. But no, it doesn't "take care of the Celtic descent issue" at all. You can't simply claim a historic connexion with Celtic paganism on the basis of Irish ancestry (unless, of course, you have an unbroken family line in which the Celtic pantheon has always been worshipped.)

After all, I have Irish ancestry as well (and German... and English...) but this doesn't mean that I'm free to claim the ancient Teuton and British pantheons as "my own." That would just be silly.

My particular version of Wicca worships the Celtic Pantheon of my Ancestors.

*snip*

By a strange coincidence, I have a comprehensive list of the Celtic pantheon on my HDD. I'd like to see how many you know. (No cheating, now - I don't want you copy/pasting the answers off a Website!)

Well, I have to admit that your one course in University far outweighs my fourteen years as a Witch, my ordination as a Minister, and my formal studies of Celtic History in Military College. I bow to your greater experience.

Thankyou.

Seriously, though, your personal experience only tells me what you've been believing and practicing for 14 years. It doesn't actually validate the accuracy of those beliefs, nor even the history upon which they are allegedly based.

 

[Evangelion]

Havoc -

Yes, I am a "true" Wiccan

Please define "true Wiccan." Thankyou.

are you a "true" Christian?

Of course! Anyone who worships God and confesses Christ is a Christian.

I believe the same as other Wiccans, that there are many Traditions of Wicca that worship many different Gods and Goddesses.

So it's just a sort of epistemological free-for-all. Hmmm.

Well, I guess that would explain this Website.

I never claimed that there was an unbroken chain of tradition of tradition from the ancient Celts to the modern day.

Very wise.

Where exactly did you get that idea from?

Well, it's a logical conclusion which springs necessarily from your personal claims.

There certainly was a break, caused by the sword arm of a particularly bloodthirsty religion of which I'm sure you are familiar.

Oh, absolutely! They wiped out nearly all of my people, as well - and my people were Christians at the time! Now, just where is your evidence that "Celtic Wicca" was disrupted by the "sword arm" of Christianity? Do you realise that many Celts were actually converted to Christianity? That the Celtic Church is one of the oldest examples of Christianity in Britain?

At the very most, you can correctly argue that paganism was suppressed when Christianity came to Britan. That is certainly true. But the beliefs system which you call "Wicca" never existed at that time, so I'm not entirely sure what it is that you're hoping to prove here.

What we are trying to do is recreate the traditions and faiths of our Ancestors.

Then why don't you do it properly? You should be hanging out with a bunch of druids, not talking about "Wicca" and "witchcraft."

My Tradition of Wicca belongs to a group called Celtic Reconstructionalism which seeks to recreate and study pre-Christian Celtic Culture using archological and anthropological evidence, ancient texts, and surviving folklore. We are under no mistaken impression that we will be able to crate a mirror of that religion but that isn't the point. We worship the old Gods in a maner that is consistent with that of our Ancestors.

I don't think you worship them in a manner that is consistent with that of your (and my) ancestors at all. You've just made up a whole lot of stuff and slapped a Celtic veneer over it.

 

[Rae]

Well, of course, Cornetto, when you put Christian requirements on non-Christian religions, you'll find out that non-Christian religions don't live up to them. They don't have to...they aren't Christian and have no interest in being so, just like me. I am not Christian and have no interest in being so.

I suppose I should start evaluating Christianity according to Buddhist principles now. Christianity falls far short of Buddhist ideas, you know. Therefore it must not be true.

That about sums up your argument, as far as I can tell.

As for the "you're making it all up" nonsense I see above, I'll just say I can see Christians making up a good deal of stuff here every day, and I don't doubt they did 2000 years ago, either. So, dear pots, you're black.

 

[cornetto]

Havoc, I don't wish to argue with religions here. I'm simply saying that at the core - when we ask the questions: who am I? why am I here? - there has to be continuity to establish faith and reach answers, no matter what. I prefer the truth personally, and I think all of us have been designed to yearn for that truth by human nature.  Here is a quote by you...

Christians have a bad habit of saying that anyone who doesn't belive that their God is the "absolute truth" is a relativist.

This may true for some, but not me.  I'm saying that a person should believe that what they believe is the truth, or they should not believe in it all.  Also, there should be a basis for their belief thereby giving it more conceivability than pure myth.

Christians want to make the illogical leap from "there is an absolute truth" to "and we have it" as if anyone who agrees with absoluteism must therefore agree with their religion.

This is definitely the way it comes accross a lot of the time.  We are not all poetic and persuasive.  For the most part, we probably all communicate poorly, myself especially.  I don't claim to be able to explain the "absolute truth"  that "we have."  I leave that to the irrefuteable appologetics like C.S. Lewis and modern day Ravi Zacharias (gospelcom.net/rzim/).  I claim not an argument for the truth, but that Christ is the Truth.  He is truth.  He is.  I rest securely in that.

Human perception of truth, however, is relative in the etreme. 

Well said.  Christianity has many faults and is definitely not perfect nor the "absolute." Christians who indeed know Christ and those who call themselves "Christians" both make mistakes, say the wrong things, and even turn people away by their actions and things they say.  I only pray that I haven't done the latter, because it is God's will that people would be brought closer to Him by simply observing the brothren and seeing the truth - which is HE that is in His children.  Christ is the truth.  Christ is the reason the religion began.  There is good and bad fruit, the good is picked so that more may grow and the bad is cast into the fire as to remove it.  The difference between Christianity and all other religions is that religions are built by systems of beliefs, rules, shared values, and norms.  Christianity is built on a relationship with the creator of the universe.  Truth, Love, Knowledge, and Wisdom come from that relationship.  The greatest of which is Love.  Havoc, I have love for you and hope that your frustration, irritation, and the box around religions be met by the one true God.  He can show and explain to you much better than I anything you want to know. 

 

[Matthew9:9]

Excellent link, Evangelion. I like seeing people being reasonable about these things, whether Pagan, Christian, etc.

The truth is that modern day Paganism (incl. Wicca) does not rely upon revealed texts or prophets. It also does not rely upon history. It certainly incorporates history, but does not rely upon it. And that's okay. It's an internally-consistent symbol-set reliant upon the work of the individual practitioner.

We each do certainly have our perceptions of realaity, and I'd even argue that most Christians have very different perceptions of God. In fact, even within a Christian framework, I use the framework of Kabbalah to understand how God can seem so different at different times.

Some would say that this New Aeon needs a new mythology, or at least a reworking of the old one(s). It's quite true that the Judaism and Christianity of today are quite different than those of 2,000 years ago, and thank God for it! We can look at Islam and see what happens when a faith stagnates for hundreds of years and still lives as though the world is a barbarous place.

 

 

 

[Havoc]

By a strange coincidence, I have a comprehensive list of the Celtic pantheon on my HDD. I'd like to see how many you know. (No cheating, now - I don't want you copy/pasting the answers off a Website!)

That sounds fair. I would point out, however that there are, considering Irish, Manx, Scottish, English, Welsh, and Continental Celtic Traditions, over 300 Gods, Goddesses and heroic figures. I think it's rather fair to allow me to use materials already in my possession. I'd like to use the works of Lady Gregory, and Charles Squire for English texts. For Celtic Texts I will be using "The Annals of the Four Masters", "The Book of the Dun Cow", and "The Yellow Book of Leinster". For these last I will be using English translations. I can read Old Gaelic, but not well enough to use in a debate. I would also like to use notes and essays in my possession from my four years of study in Celtic History from The Royal Military College of Canada in Kingston. Also, since many of the beings we will be discussing have more than one name and interpretations of lineage may differ, I wil be using "The Oxford Dictionary of Celtic Mythology" as defining authority.

If these terms are agreeable to you let's proceed.

 

[Soul_Searcher]

Hi cornetto. I'm avoiding the whole Wiccan thing. You ask good questions; my question is why are we considered bad? God created us, didn't he? Jesus taught us that with faith nothing is impossible to us. This tells me we have much good inside. Just because Paul was a tortured man who felt he didn't measure up doesn't mean we aren't good. I don't remember Jesus ever saying we were all bad; he told us to Love God, have faith, Love each other; he believed in the good in all of us, that we all had the potential to achieve great things. I think if Paul had actually met Jesus he would have sung a different song.

 

[Matthew9:9]

I would like to take the opportunity today to apologize for the bitterness which came through in my posts on this thread. I became a Witch in order to get free from the prejudice and hypocrisy I saw all around me in Christianity and Judaism.

After a few years, I found myself disappointed by the prejudice and hypocrisy I saw among the Pagan commmunity, especially after my own True Will placed me in some positions which seemed incompatible with "orthodox" Pagan thought.

I was disillusioned upon realising that Pagans were just as human as Christians, with the same weaknesses, foibles, and follies. This was my own failing, and not that of any Pagans. As such, I apologise for my own hypocrisy, petulance, and immaturity.

May we all be blessed by our gods.

 

 

[Rae]

We are all, indeed, "mere" humans. No matter what group we choose, that group will have...humans in it.

 

[Matthew9:9]

Thanks, Rae.

In some ways, I think my turning to Christianity was a result of my feeling so out of place in the Pagan Community. So, you see - becoming a Christian can be an act of rebellion if your dominant paradigm is Pagan!

 

So, my spiritual life is solitary now, and I have only myself to please with my praxis.

 

 

 

[Rae]

Hey, as long as you don't turn out like this conservative Catholic I met elsewhere did, lashing out at all Pagans because some had hurt him and assuming silly things about us when a quick question or two would have given him REAL answers, you're fine with me...

 

[Alenci]

*interrupts discussion* i just discovered this thread, and i can't say that i have anything to contribute to the conversation, but i'd like to inform you all that the thread makes for fascinating reading.

 

[Matthew9:9]

Hmmm, I think I've exorcised something lately, but not what I thought I needed to.

Not a direct result of this thread, but the thead did definitely get me thinking about my own short-sightedmess....

 

 

 

[Rae]

::bows to Alenci:: Thank you, thank you, this is one of our better threads...

 

[Apologist]

Originally posted by Havoc

Are there smug, arrogant Pagans? Of course there are. But you won't find even many of them saying they have the "absolute truth".

So you are saying there is no such thing as absolute truth?

 

[Matthew9:9]

Originally posted by Apologist
So you are saying there is no such thing as absolute truth?

I assume by your question that you believe that there is such a thing. If so, please share some examples.

Please convince me, because I'd sure sleep better at night were there such a thing.

 

[Apologist]

Originally posted by Matthew9:9
I assume by your question that you believe that there is such a thing. If so, please share some examples.

Please convince me, because I'd sure sleep better at night were there such a thing.

Let me put it this way:

If there are no absolutes then nothing is ultimately bad, deplorable, tragic or worthy of blame. Neither is anything good, honorable, noble, or worthy of praise. It's all lost in a twilight zone of moral nothingness.

 

[Matthew9:9]

Originally posted by Apologist
Let me put it this way:

If there are no absolutes then nothing is ultimately bad, deplorable, tragic or worthy of blame. Neither is anything good, honorable, noble, or worthy of praise. It's all lost in a twilight zone of moral nothingness.

Yes, I understand your point, but I must again ask for examples of absolutes.

 

 

[Havoc]

Originally posted by Apologist
So you are saying there is no such thing as absolute truth?

No I firmly believe in "absolute truth". Common sense would indicate that there is a "way" things are. Truth is not subjective.

Human perception of truth, however, is subjective in the extreme. Just because one religion claims to have "absolute truth" is no reason to believe they have it. Just because absolute truth must exist is no reason to believe that the human perception of truth corresponds to it. Just because a refuses to believe a religion's unproven claim of absolute truth is no reason to assume he rejects the principle of absolute truth.

 

[cornetto]

I said this before, but You still should believe you have found the truth in your own beliefs.  If you do this, there should be nothing wrong with that.  Thus, why are Christians a target here?  We doing nothing different than you except saying we agree that Jesus is the way, truth, and light of the world.