What are they afraid of?

[The Simple Plan]

The Bible does not have a hard and fast rule for styles of corporate worship except that all things be done "decently and in order".

The resistance by some to loud music, clapping, dancing, etc is because often it can get out of hand. Others do prefer a more reflective style of worship. For example compare Quaker services to a Charismatic one and you see a vast difference in the approach!!

What is important is that one does not foster or force a style of worship on another. When you are used to solemn, a more vocal praise and worship style can become offensive, and vice versa. God gives us wisdom to know that if we are not happy with what we have we pray and voice our opinion through the proper channels.

David spoke about making a joyful noise to God, but none of this was to be done in the temple, in fact when he wrote the only ones who sang in the temple were the Levites. Paul also warned the Corinthians about the nature of their worship, it was not a competition of gifts and noise but rather adoration of God.

I prefer a sensible blend of the two styles. When I take communion I like to do so in quiet reflection. When I am fasting and reflective I do not like to hear happy clappy songs because that is not the frame of mind I am in. However there are times when I just need to jump and shout and praise the Lord not to bring attention to myself but to thank him for all he has done.

Balance is what is needed. To use a cliche, God wants spiritual fruit not religious nuts!!

Agape

 

[SUNSTONE]

Originally posted by Outspoken


ahh..now here I think is some of the problem. 1. if they were distracted there is something indeed wrong. 2. It could be them, or the dancers. People being moved to tears is emotionalism, and that doesn't always mean its the spirit moving, it just means people are being emotional. 3. You already place guilt on the distracted people, something you should not do since they might be distracted because of something that was done unbiblically in the dancing "service".

"I repeat, it does not say that. "

Yes, it does, in several places in fact. The spirit of the words Paul says goes to the very heart of this matter. Don't be distracting.


So you think its okay to do anything in church, anything at all? I think you would fall under the same problem as the church at corinth, for that was their exact problem. Check 1 cor 14:40.

"Tell me how do you know that it was God that talked to you?"

Through scripture, others, nature itself. I prayed to God about this long ago and he answered me very clearly on it, there is no doubt in my mind, it was an answer from the same God that gave me my salvation.

"the other says do it with "all your might" with raised hands, shout to the Lord all the earth, dance before the Lord. "

i can worship with all my might and not be distracting. That's the place where you differ from me.

"You have yet to show me any scripture that gives you a case. "

I guess you haven't read my posts them.

"because your Pastor does not allow that."

No, it doesn't happen because its not biblical not because my pastor doesn't allow it. I have yet to see an example where corperate worship was happening in the bible and people were running around doing laps in church can you show me one? i think its very telling that you THINK he specifically disallowed it, because he did not. Our "carasmatic memembers" just know its distracting and don't do it I guess.

"And David was dancing before the Lord with all his might, and David was wearing a linen ephod."  David did sacrifices, and danced and the people played instruments as they worshipped the Lord together. David even uncovered himself before the Lord and the people in worship. "How the king of Israel distinguished himself today! He uncovered himself today in the eyes of his servants' maids as one of the foolish ones shamelessley uncovers himself!" David answered "It was before the Lord, who chose me above your father and above all his house, to appoint me ruler over the people of the Lord, over Israel; therefore I will celebrate before the Lord. And I  will be more lightly esteemed than this and will be humbel in my own eyes, but with the maids of whom you have spoken, with them I will be distinguished."   The verse follows with how she never had anymore children after that day.  2 Sam 6:12-23(mixed with my words) 

See how she looked at him, "distinguished himself"," as one of the foolish ones"  and who did she thought he was doing it for "in the eyes of his servants". 

[A time to mourn and a  time to dance] ec 3:4

[Thou hast turned me my morning into dancing;Thou hast loosed my sackcloth and girded me with gladness; That my soul may sing praise to Thee, and not be silent. O Lord my God, I will give thanks to Thee forever.] Psalms 30:11+12

[Praise the Lord! Sing to the Lord a new song, And His praise IN THE CONGREGATION of the godly ones. Let Israel be glad in his Maker; Let the sons of Zion rejoice in their King. Let them praise His name with dancing; Let them sing praises to Him with timbrel and lyre. He will beautify the afflicted ones with salvation.] Psalms 1-4

 In the congregation he said!

 Those verses(1cor) you put up are not talking about praise and worship there talking about how the use of the gifts were not being as productive as they should be, and how the people were settleing on certain gifts and not pushing for the stronger ones so that the church might be edified more.

So unless you have some  hard core evidence like I just put up, I will no longer waste my time in this debate.

 

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Sunstone,

How about all those Psalms with the words shout, leap, jump.  Ps 32:11, 47:1,5, 132:9,16, and Ps 18:29 "For by thee I have run through a troop; and by my God I have leaped over a wall.

And what about the children of Israel going through the desert. How many times do we see Miriam leading the way in dancing and playing tamborines, etc.  Making up songs as they went. 

How many thousands were there? I'd say that's pretty corporate. 

On the day of Penticost, (Acts 2) everybody within hearing distance thought those spilling from the upper-room were drunk.  Geeze, they must have been acting drunk.  There were 3000 souls added to the church that day.  That sounds corporate.

Acts 10:44-46 "While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on them which heard the word.  And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God."  That was corporate too!  Plus, Peter's sermon was interrupted by it.  Hmm! Interesting.



 

 

[Outspoken]

"how the people were settleing on certain gifts and not pushing for the stronger ones so that the church might be edified more.
"

Nope, if you had read the passages I indicated it talks exactly about orderly worship. As far as dancing before the Lord that David did, that was not church, nor was it a corperate worship so this does not apply at all to what you are saying.

"So unless you have some hard core evidence like I just put up, I will no longer waste my time in this debate. "

By all means then bow out. If you feel you are waisting your time and you think what the Lord has told me is meaningless by all means don't reply, I won't take it personally and I'm sure God won't either

"And what about the children of Israel going through the desert. How many times do we see Miriam leading the way in dancing and playing tamborines, etc. Making up songs as they went."

Again, I never said these things weren't allowed, but should be done in an orderly way. Please do not try and build a strawman you can mob and burn to feel better about. Thanks.

"distance thought those spilling from the upper-room were drunk. "

Wrong. They were not drunk. People watching THOUGHT that of them. When you're drunk you can speak clearly as they did now can you? Nope BIG difference between what someone THINKS and what is true. Read more carefully next time in the text.

"That was corporate too! "

Nope, it wasn't a church service in the aspect we are talking about anymore then the israelites gathering together to go to war was.

 

[SnuP]

So what you define as church, is an established building, with set peramater for the service, with a specific goal and message. What we would consider to be church, would just be a large gathering were we come together and enjoy the presence of the Lord.

You keep trying to apply scriptures to true worship which have nothing to do with true worship. Paul was correcting the conrithians who were engage in self seeking activities. True worship has nothing to do with being self seeking. Therefore Paul was not speaking about true worship.

You obviously missed the point of the story of my sister and the prophetess. God was definatly moving and leading the dance. All of those who operate under the annointing on a regular basis could tell that these two were being powerfully used of God. The fact that both my sister and the prophetess considered the event to be deeply personal  is of great sugnificance to this discussion.

And yet there were some who were distracted. Therefore you think that there is something wrong with the dance or the dancers because if it was God no one would be distracted. But that is not true. Those who have the mind of the flesh will always be distracted by the things of the spirit, because it goes against the desires of the flesh.

originally posted by outspoken

As far as dancing before the Lord that David did, that was not church. As far as dancing before the Lord that David did, that was not church.

I am truely surprised at you. That you would dismiss David's act of worship because it was not in the temple. Who are you to say that it is not church, just because it is not surrounded by a building. He was worshiping God and being a distraction. That is exactly the subject, and you dismiss it because it is not in a building? Shame on you.  I find it ironic that you would have considered it a grave sin if David had done his half naked dance in a temple (with or without the ark), but not inapropriate for him to do it infront of the who city, in front of the symbol of the very presence of God. So we are allowed to dance in a distracting way in the presence of God, but not in a church building.  Your discernment is extremely flawed and worldly.  I glad that we came to this understanding, because we now finally agree. I had already determined never to dance in a church when the presence of God is not there.

It is interesting to note that the whole of the congregation was worshiping with David. But like you said that was not corperate worship. LOL Man this is like agruing with a guy who's lived in a glass jar all of his life. LOL it's not corperate. LOL How do you get more corperate then when the whole city is worshiping together. David must have felt his worship was pretty intimate if he was willing to take almost all of his close off.

2. It could be them, or the dancers. People being moved to tears is emotionalism, and that doesn't always mean its the spirit moving, it just means people are being emotional.

Did you notice that I said that the annointing was very strong.  There wouldn't be any annointing unless God was doing the work.  May be you just don't understand what that means.

3. You already place guilt on the distracted people, something you should not do since they might be distracted because of something that was done unbiblically in the dancing "service".

The annointing would not have been there if there had been someting unbiblical about the dance.  I place the quilt there because God obviously had control of the dancers.  He did not have control over the people who were distracted.

"If you believe that the scriptures that you gave do limit true worship, then prove it. "

So you think its okay to do anything in church, anything at all? I think you would fall under the same problem as the church at corinth, for that was their exact problem. Check 1 cor 14:40.

Do you not understand what true worship is.  It is a selfless act.  ! cor. 14: is a correction of selfserving people.  The corinthians were engaged in selfish worship not true worship, therefore it does not apply.

"Worship means love."

If you say so. I would describe it as praise.

This is a very basic truth.  If you don't understand this fact then you have never experienced true worship, and know little about it.  Then you are argueing on a subject on which you have insufficient knowledge. 

 

[SnuP]

Let me say this real clear for those distracted brothers and sisters

There will always be someone who is distracted in a worship service.

I am always distracted by traditional sevices.  Everything about these services is a huge distraction to my worship. Always

 

[SUNSTONE]

Originally posted by Outspoken
"how the people were settleing on certain gifts and not pushing for the stronger ones so that the church might be edified more.
"

Nope, if you had read the passages I indicated it talks exactly about orderly worship. As far as dancing before the Lord that David did, that was not church, nor was it a corperate worship so this does not apply at all to what you are saying.

The bible even said "let the congregation", so who am I going to listen to? You or God and His word. 

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by SUNSTONE
The bible even said "let the congregation", so who am I going to listen to? You or God and His word. 

All throughout the book of Exedus the children of Israel are referred to as the "congregation".

I looked for the word "corporate" in the Bible.  Ain't there!

It was Jesus who said, "where two or three are gathered together in my name, there I am in the midst of them" (Matt 18:20).  All there has to be is two.

Ooh, that would include Paul and Silas in the jail.  All the noise they were making, litterally shook the house.  Acts 16:25-28. 

Bye 

 

 

[SUNSTONE]

Originally posted by Quaffer
All throughout the book of Exedus the children of Israel are referred to as the "congregation".

I looked for the word "corporate" in the Bible.  Ain't there!

It was Jesus who said, "where two or three are gathered together in my name, there I am in the midst of them" (Matt 18:20).  All there has to be is two.

Ooh, that would include Paul and Silas in the jail.  All the noise they were making, litterally shook the house.  Acts 16:25-28. 

Hey SnuP & Sunstone, ya'll know who the new guy is don't ya?

Bye 

 

Great job!  

I am a Jesus freak!

 

 

[Blindfaith]

Hey everyone!

This is how I look at it.  I ask myself two questions during Praise/Worship;
1.  Is this the type of place Jesus would want to come and visit?  And if He did, what would He think?

2.  Am I worshipping the Lord as He deserves?

 

That pretty much sums it up for me. 

Carry on.....

~Peace in Christ,

Terri

 

[SUNSTONE]

Originally posted by blindfaith
Hey everyone!

This is how I look at it.  I ask myself two questions during Praise/Worship;
1.  Is this the type of place Jesus would want to come and visit?  And if He did, what would He think?

2.  Am I worshipping the Lord as He deserves?

 

That pretty much sums it up for me. 

Carry on.....

~Peace in Christ,

Terri

I have went to alot of different churchs, and when I found the one where I am at now, where they encourage you to dance and shout for joy, I knew this was home. Almost everyone who likes it says the same thing, "its a fun church".

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by SUNSTONE
I have went to alot of different churchs, and when I found the one where I am at now, where they encourage you to dance and shout for joy, I knew this was home. Almost everyone who likes it says the same thing, "its a fun church".

Same as my church Sunstone, and Jesus does show up.  Every week.

And for the one who did not read my post as carefully as they thought and then told me to pay more attention, I have copied and pasted again what I said and highlighted the portion you missed. 

On the day of Penticost, (Acts 2) everybody within hearing distance thought those spilling from the upper-room were drunk.  Geeze, they must have been acting drunk.  There were 3000 souls added to the church that day. 

 

[SnuP]

Originally posted by Quaffer
Same as my church Sunstone, and Jesus does show up.  Every week.

And for the one who did not read my post as carefully as they thought and then told me to pay more attention, I have copied and pasted again what I said and highlighted the portion you missed. 

On the day of Penticost, (Acts 2) everybody within hearing distance thought those spilling from the upper-room were drunk.  Geeze, they must have been acting drunk.  There were 3000 souls added to the church that day. 

Do y'all go to my church? 

Sounds just like my church.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by SnuP
Do y'all go to my church? 

Sounds just like my church.

 

And we're all in Florida too.  Gods doin' great stuff down here!

 

[SnuP]

Where did all those argueing with us go?

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by SnuP
Where did all those argueing with us go?

Maybe their distracted?   

  

   

                                    

                                                                       

   

   

                            

 

[SnuP]

That was the funniest thing I heard all day.

I hope that the person in your post that is floating does not distract the others from worshiping God. I'd hate to see a tar and feathered pink smilie.

Sticking your tongue out in a corperate setting of worship is just . . . unholy?  Irreverent?  Untraditional?    

 

[Outspoken]

"True worship has nothing to do with being self seeking. Therefore Paul was not speaking about true worship. "

Yes he was snup. He was talking about the reason why it wasn't true worship, ie what they were doing wrong. It very much applies here.

"The fact that both my sister and the prophetess considered the event to be deeply personal is of great sugnificance to this discussion. "

I consider playing halo with friends deeply personal, but not a God experience even when we are singing and being joyful.

"That you would dismiss David's act of worship because it was not in the temple. "

Again, you misunderstand. 1. the church had not come yet. 2. he was not in the temple as you say yourself 3. this was a joyful time before the Lord, not in worship context as a church gathering.

"So we are allowed to dance in a distracting way in the presence of God, but not in a church building. Your discernment is extremely flawed and worldly. "
Again, as in the past you attack me when I disagree with you then turn around and say this is wrong to do. I disagree with you, that's the bottom line and you have provided no biblical evidience for me to believe your view. I have provided ample to show you distracting people in worship is wrong and Paul himself wrote a large section about it in his letters.

"If you don't understand this fact then you have never experienced true worship,"

For you to say something like this is just silly. I have experienced true worship and do on a daily basis thanks. Don't speak about something you have no knowledge about (ie my experiences).

"There will always be someone who is distracted in a worship service."

This is not true at all. For when you are in true worship there is but one body worshiping God, or did you skip reading that part in your bible?


sun

"The bible even said "let the congregation", so who am I going to listen to? You or God and His word. "

Both, because we are saying the same thing



quaff

"All the noise they were making, litterally shook the house. "


Again you're twisting the words of the bible to fit your purpose. The earthquake had NOTHING to do with the noise they were making at all, nor does it imply that in the text. Please stop adding your thoughts onto the bible and let the text speak for itself? I would say the sole purpose of this event was NOT due to their worship, but so God could work through them to save the jailer and his house. It had NOTHING to do with worship at all in my opinion.

 

[shout2thelord]

I was arguing before but i just got fed up ive already stated what i beleive and i find it sooooooooooooooooo funny that this argument is still going on.

Oh but how can you say it had nothing to do with their worship! you think that when we praise God thru these situations that he doesnt answer. what would be the point in praying if God was just gonna do stuff and not respond to us at all.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by Outspoken

quaff

"All the noise they were making, litterally shook the house. "


Again you're twisting the words of the bible to fit your purpose. The earthquake had NOTHING to do with the noise they were making at all, nor does it imply that in the text. Please stop adding your thoughts onto the bible and let the text speak for itself? I would say the sole purpose of this event was NOT due to their worship, but so God could work through them to save the jailer and his house. It had NOTHING to do with worship at all in my opinion.

 

Definition of pun: the humorous use of a word in a way that suggests two interpretations. 


Is there anyone here besides this person, who truely, did not understand that I was making a "pun"?  He also convienently left off the smiley face I had with the original statement.