What are they afraid of?

[Blackhawk]

Originally posted by SUNSTONE
Got Ya!

You think that people should worship a certian way, but when I say the same thing in different words, you get offended!

 

I do not remember saying that any form of worship is really wrong.  I just said that God directs us to certain types of worship at certain times and that we need to think of others during corporate worship.   

  Please don't tell people how to worship, it does no good and is unbiblical. If a saint wants to get crazy and do back flips screaming about the glorys that God has done in his life, then whats that to you? : [/B]

So you do not care if you are a stumbling block to others? HMM.   

  1. Was David right or wrong for worshipping with "all his might"? [/B]

No.

2.Where does it say in the bible that there are wrong ways to worship? ( I know it says, they honor me with there lips, but there hearts are far from me.  [/B]

The Bible is full of instances where God required a certain type of worship and others were condemmed at that time period.  I think of Aaron's kids that God killed because of their improper worship or how King Uzziah was stricken with leporsey because he wanted to worship god his way and not God's.  The list could go on and on.  How about the guy who was killed because they did not carry the ark in the right way?  Tell me if you want more examples. 

Maybe the conservitive side should look to themselves and see if there walk lines up, because the fruits of praise sure doesn't sound like it.) Love the Lord with all your heart.

 Love is patient, love is kind, and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things,.....] 1cor 13:4-7 Love your bother as yourself. [/B]

I think this quote speaks for itself.  Read the verse you quoted and then read what you said.  Then think about it. 

3. Are you being provoked, by someones worship? [/B]

Provoked?  I do not know what you mean.  If someone is worshipping in a way God would not have them worship at that time then I think they should stop.  Is that wrong?  Why would God call you not to think of others and if they can worship God? Do you see in the Bible God calling us to a more community type pf lifestyle where we help eachother worship Christ more or one where each of us are just concerned about our own worship?  Just some questions to think about. 

 

[Blackhawk]

Originally posted by Andrew
I always see the "singing session" part of the service as having 2 parts:

Part 1 (PRAISE): Praise type songs that are fast songs, where you make a joyful noise unto the Lord. Where there's clapping dancing shouts of hallelujah etc.

Part 2 (WORSHIP): then comes the more quite solemn part were the slow songs are played and people are in a more worshipful mood.

In both parts, of course, emotion is involved. How can one possibly love and praise and worship God without any emotion??

Now how those emotions are manifested vary from clapping to lifting of hands to swaying to crying to shouting etc. Just let go as the Spirit leads you. If you wanna clap, clap, if you wanna lift your hands go ahead, if you wanna sit and bow your head so be it, if you feel led to dance, do it.

but whatever it is, do it in love ie dont stick out like a sore thumb and draw attention to yourself, distracting others. dont cause your bro to stumble. eg if you are in a traditional service and no one wants to clap or lift hands, dont be different and cause others to focus on you, instead of Jesus. Dont jump around and dance and distract others if no one else is doing that. Do what I did, move to another church where everyone else is doing it!

that said, the reason why i dont like traditional services is that they are too routine and basically so dead. its stand up, sing hymn no 123 and then sit down. there's just no annointing. i rem my ex pastor preached a whole sermon on lifting holy hands to the Lord when praising, how its biblical and right to do so. in the end, no one save 2 or 3 responded. lifting hands is so basic. can you imagine loving someone without ever stretching out your hands to embrace them? if we do that for our loved ones, how much more God?

Good post. However I was just thinking how the "untraditional" worship services are "too routine and basically so dead."  It seems that contemporary worship does not have the array of emotions that the more traditional called upon but rarely really provoked.  I see there is a problem with both contemporary worship services and the more traditional. I am for a mixed one.  Let the Spirit move. Let there be times when we have only organ and piano but other times when we have a band play. Let's have creeds and readings also.  Let's be truly daring and not have jsut the drones of hymns or the similiar drone of praise choruses. 

 

[SnuP]

Originally posted by Blackhawk
The Bible is full of instances where God required a certain type of worship and others were condemmed at that time period.  I think of Aaron's kids that God killed because of their improper worship or how King Uzziah was stricken with leporsey because he wanted to worship god his way and not God's.  The list could go on and on.  How about the guy who was killed because they did not carry the ark in the right way?  Tell me if you want more examples. 

Those are examples of disobedience and people who thought it ok to touch the things of God.  you should also notice a lack of respect for established authority in every case that you have mentioned.  Your examples do not fit the current arguement, since none of it deals with distraction.  But I understand how you could have become confussed about it.

Your examples are good for one thing though.  When God sets a standard, He expects it to be followed.  God has set a standard for our worship services, and because most of the more 'traditional' type services fail to follow the examples, in favor of there established tradition, they also fail to experience God in a real and lasting way. 

It also shows that no one should have the arrogance to go against the worship that God has established even if they feel distracted, or that their way is better.  They may end up dead.  I predict that some, who are so concerned with distractions, are going to end up dead when God starts to release His glory, because they will be touching the things of God.

 

[Blackhawk]

Originally posted by SnuP
Those are examples of disobedience and people who thought it ok to touch the things of God.  you should also notice a lack of respect for established authority in every case that you have mentioned.  Your examples do not fit the current arguement, since none of it deals with distraction.  But I understand how you could have become confussed about it.

Huh?  I was respnding to another poster saying "Please don't tell people how to worship, it does no good and is unbiblical."  I was showing how in the Bible God reqires certain kinds of worwship at certain times and at others different kinds.  Did you read the other poster's comments? 

And also how is it not disobedience to God if I ignore others around me in corporate worship?

Your examples are good for one thing though.  When God sets a standard, He expects it to be followed.  God has set a standard for our worship services, and because most of the more 'traditional' type services fail to follow the examples, in favor of there established tradition, they also fail to experience God in a real and lasting way. [/B]

 

Hmm and the contemporary services do not fall into this trap also?  I thnk that they do just as easily.  Maybe not in the same exact way but many times they fall into the same trap.   

It also shows that no one should have the arrogance to go against the worship that God has established even if they feel distracted, or that their way is better.  They may end up dead.  I predict that some, who are so concerned with distractions, are going to end up dead when God starts to release His glory, because they will be touching the things of God. [/B]

So contemporary worship is what has been ordained by God?  I thought God ordained worship "in spirit and truth."  Both types of services fail to worship this way many times.  One is very emotional and the other is not but that is not the major wualification for true worship. One might give you goose bumps or whatever but again that is not the qualifications of good worship.  I am concerned about good and proper coorporate worship not what feels good. 

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by Blackhawk
Huh?  I was respnding to another poster saying "Please don't tell people how to worship, it does no good and is unbiblical."  I was showing how in the Bible God reqires certain kinds of worwship at certain times and at others different kinds.  Did you read the other poster's comments? 

And also how is it not disobedience to God if I ignore others around me in corporate worship?

 

Hmm and the contemporary services do not fall into this trap also?  I thnk that they do just as easily.  Maybe not in the same exact way but many times they fall into the same trap.   



So contemporary worship is what has been ordained by God?  I thought God ordained worship "in spirit and truth."  Both types of services fail to worship this way many times.  One is very emotional and the other is not but that is not the major wualification for true worship. One might give you goose bumps or whatever but again that is not the qualifications of good worship.  I am concerned about good and proper coorporate worship not what feels good. 

I think what needs to be noted here is that we are to do what God wants. Period. Worship is not about us but about Him.

There generally are songs of exuberance where any and all should be free to worship God with enthusiasm. There should be no judgement on these individuals as they worship this way.

Then there are the slower songs. . .songs where we end up on our faces before the Lord. There should be no judgement on these forms either.

Now it would be very much out of order for in the middle of face in the carpet time being interrupted by someone who starts shouting and clapping like their on American Bandstand. I don't think any one of us is implying that being allowed.

In my church, there is a time for the exuberant type but there's also the quiet time where we wait and hear what God has to say. Each service is different. There is no followed plan for the service.

People are incouraged to join in exuberantly. I believe they would find great freedom if they did. But they are not forced to. My church probably tends to be too noisy and we are changing as we allow the Holy Spirt to lead. But every service is wonderful and life changing. Every service we have someone gets saved. Every service we have someone get healed.

The spirit will not work against Himself. There are times of exuberance. There are times of quiet. None in either camp should be judged by anyone. I should not judge you because you are quiet during the exuberant time and neither should you judge me because I am loud during the quiet time. Or vise versa.

There can be loud weeping, and soft laughing. We may be having corporate worship but it is not about us, our likes, dislikes, etc It's about Him, his likes, dislikes, etc. We are coming together to give Him honor and glory. It's all about Him.

 

[SnuP]

Setting regulations on a worship service will only produce death.

I don't think thay even you would consider the worship service at my church to be contemperary. The type of worship that I am refering to can not be catorized. You seem to think that I support what is called contemporary, but I haven't discoused what type of worship I perticipate in. The only thing that you could call it is different.

I don't consider anything worship untill God starts moving. If God is not moving, then whatever it is, doesn't qualify as worship. But I do not believe that you can have worship without the release of emotion.

And also how is it not disobedience to God if I ignore others around me in corporate worship?

If some one is distracted by your worship, by your moving with God, then they are not moving with God. If their distraction is based out of pride then they should be ignored because they are acting contrary to the move of God. Your agreement with them will squelsh the worship with in your own spirit.

 

[Outspoken]

"Show me these verses that say "corperate worship" ?"

Sure thing my friend. there is this

Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Indicating it is a gathering of people when God appears in the mist.

There is also the passage at the latter part of 1 Cor 11 extending into chapter 12. He is clearly talking about a gathering time in which the common good should be considered. Paul also says as much in that same passage, "Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit (speaking also of tongues and what goes on in worship) is given for the common good..."

Paul, in his letters, seems to make it clear there is a corperate identity that you should realize and thus worship approprately. Does this mean you can't have different styles of worship? Not at all! It does mean you have to not be distracting though.

 

[Andrew]

"Good post. However I was just thinking how the "untraditional" worship services are "too routine and basically so dead."Ê

well i can only speak about my own experiences in the methodist church which i worshipped at for many years, and other traditional services I visited, inlcuding Catholic ones.

By routine i mean they follow the order of the worship bulletin (this item followed by that) which is basically the same every week. Singing is 'controlled' -- you stand, sing the stanzas of the verses the leader picks out, then sit.

During Communion, we simply recite the same passages from the hymn book everytime. IOW just very ritualistic and ceremonial like. In the praise and worship singing, the most the congregation will do is clap hands -- that's about the only 'acceptable' thing. yes you can raise your hands if you wanted to but you'll stick out like a sore thumb and you'll feel eyes behind you burning into your back!*L

"It seems that contemporary worship does not have the array of emotions that the more traditional called upon but rarely really provoked."

dun quite understnd what u mean here. In my own experiences, there were hardly any emotions expressed in the traditional services i attended. I mean you had to behave yourself and be prim and proper. yes you may be moved to tears but you had to control it and not 'make a scene' so to speak.

"I see there is a problem with both contemporary worship services and the more traditional. I am for a mixed one."

The only "traditional" thing I love are the hymns -- these are timeless classics on a class of their own. In my church, we sing contemporary songs (like Hillsongs) but we also do sing hymns (i will always love hymns), which the congregation just loves too. In fact, my church just produced a hymns CD.

finally, just one last observation, i find that in the traditional services, (I attended) the praise and worship is usu very short or interruptive. IOW its not a gradual build up cos you just sing 1 or 2 songs then sit down for some other item/annoncement -- so there's always a break in the flow and never gets built up.

oh yes finally, the traditional worship lack intruments ie just the piano or organ. it sounds really dreary sometimes. my current church has the drums, percussion, 2 electronic keyboardists, choir, back up singers (excellent voice qualities). IOW a full band. It really makes a diff after all we are told to worship with instrumentS.

anyway, these are just my observations.

 

[SnuP]

Originally posted by Outspoken
"Show me these verses that say "corperate worship" ?"

Sure thing my friend. there is this

Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Indicating it is a gathering of people when God appears in the mist.

There is also the passage at the latter part of 1 Cor 11 extending into chapter 12. He is clearly talking about a gathering time in which the common good should be considered. Paul also says as much in that same passage, "Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit (speaking also of tongues and what goes on in worship) is given for the common good..."

Paul, in his letters, seems to make it clear there is a corperate identity that you should realize and thus worship approprately. Does this mean you can't have different styles of worship? Not at all! It does mean you have to not be distracting though.

Stretch of logic.

It could be shown that those who are distracted are accually the ones who are not entering into the corporate worship do to the fact that they are not of one mind with the rest of the body.

 

[Outspoken]

"Stretch of logic."

Not at all, Paul always emphasised the importance we are to have of others in everything we do, especially worship, thus why he specifically goes into this topic a few times.

"It could be shown that those who are distracted are accually the ones who are not entering into the corporate worship do to the fact that they are not of one mind with the rest of the body."

I agree, but I would say that most of the time it is the other way around, thus Paul's lenghty statements on tongues and their proper use as well as regulations on dress, etc...

 

[SnuP]

Originally posted by Outspoken
"Stretch of logic."

Not at all, Paul always emphasised the importance we are to have of others in everything we do, especially worship, thus why he specifically goes into this topic a few times.

"It could be shown that those who are distracted are accually the ones who are not entering into the corporate worship do to the fact that they are not of one mind with the rest of the body."

I agree, but I would say that most of the time it is the other way around, thus Paul's lenghty statements on tongues and their proper use as well as regulations on dress, etc...

There was no regulations in the upper room, and by far that must have been the best worship service to date.  The difference between the upper room and the church at chorinth is pride.  Every instruction that Paul lais out was to deal with the showiness, pride, of the individuals at chorinth (and like churches).  Pride is always a distraction, and is one of the few things that should be controled in a worship service. 

But we are not talking about pride, we are talking about genuine expressions of love and aduration for our God.  If these become a distraction then the only one to blame is the one whose mind is not on God but rather is more concerned about how others worship.  There is no excuse for stopping some one who is expressing true worship.  I would have agreed with you if Paul was trying to structure a worship service.  But he was not.  He was trying to stop selfish, look at me, behavior.

 

[SnuP]

Originally posted by Andrew
"Good post. However I was just thinking how the "untraditional" worship services are "too routine and basically so dead."Ê

well i can only speak about my own experiences in the methodist church which i worshipped at for many years, and other traditional services I visited, inlcuding Catholic ones.

By routine i mean they follow the order of the worship bulletin (this item followed by that) which is basically the same every week. Singing is 'controlled' -- you stand, sing the stanzas of the verses the leader picks out, then sit.

During Communion, we simply recite the same passages from the hymn book everytime. IOW just very ritualistic and ceremonial like. In the praise and worship singing, the most the congregation will do is clap hands -- that's about the only 'acceptable' thing. yes you can raise your hands if you wanted to but you'll stick out like a sore thumb and you'll feel eyes behind you burning into your back!*L

"It seems that contemporary worship does not have the array of emotions that the more traditional called upon but rarely really provoked."

dun quite understnd what u mean here. In my own experiences, there were hardly any emotions expressed in the traditional services i attended. I mean you had to behave yourself and be prim and proper. yes you may be moved to tears but you had to control it and not 'make a scene' so to speak.

"I see there is a problem with both contemporary worship services and the more traditional. I am for a mixed one."

The only "traditional" thing I love are the hymns -- these are timeless classics on a class of their own. In my church, we sing contemporary songs (like Hillsongs) but we also do sing hymns (i will always love hymns), which the congregation just loves too. In fact, my church just produced a hymns CD.

finally, just one last observation, i find that in the traditional services, (I attended) the praise and worship is usu very short or interruptive. IOW its not a gradual build up cos you just sing 1 or 2 songs then sit down for some other item/annoncement -- so there's always a break in the flow and never gets built up.

oh yes finally, the traditional worship lack intruments ie just the piano or organ. it sounds really dreary sometimes. my current church has the drums, percussion, 2 electronic keyboardists, choir, back up singers (excellent voice qualities). IOW a full band. It really makes a diff after all we are told to worship with instrumentS.

anyway, these are just my observations.

I would have to agree with Andrew completely.  What he discribed is also what I have experience in terms of traditional services, and frankly I have never experienced any thing that was life in them.  I have often notice an anti-anointing in such services also.

 

[Outspoken]

"There was no regulations in the upper room, and by far that must have been the best worship service to date. "

So? There WERE regulations, that was the point I was making.

" If these become a distraction then the only one to blame is the one whose mind is not on God but rather is more concerned about how others worship"

See my prior post for the response to this statement, its exactly the same point and its exactly the same answer.

 

[Andrew]

""Stretch of logic."

Not at all, Paul always emphasised the importance we are to have of others in everything we do, especially worship, thus why he specifically goes into this topic a few times.
"It could be shown that those who are distracted are accually the ones who are not entering into the corporate worship do to the fact that they are not of one mind with the rest of the body."
I agree, but I would say that most of the time it is the other way around, thus Paul's lenghty statements on tongues and their proper use as well as regulations on dress, etc...

I think it all depends on who's attending who's church. eg if I go to a traditional service, i dont start clapping loudly, raising my hands or dancing around -- that's simply not love -- and I'm not called there to change their whole style of worship.

Likewise, if I'm traditional and i go to a charismatic praise and worship, i should try to blend in and be spontaneous -- for goodness sake at least just clap my hands along and smile, rather than just fold hands in disgust and stare *L

" If these become a distraction then the only one to blame is the one whose mind is not on God but rather is more concerned about how others worship"

but we must rem that we are not all at the same spiritual growth level or brought up in the same "style" of worship. eg I visited a friend's service where there was dancing around with a tambourine (i was already 'charismatic' by then). 2 or 3 ladies were going around dancing and playing the tambourine. Of course I was distracted. It was something quite new to me but that didnt mean that I was against it or focusing on what they were doing. Actually, I did enjoy their praise and worship and I told my friend it was the best singing I've ever heard to date.

 

[SnuP]

Originally posted by Outspoken
"There was no regulations in the upper room, and by far that must have been the best worship service to date. "

So? There WERE regulations, that was the point I was making.

" If these become a distraction then the only one to blame is the one whose mind is not on God but rather is more concerned about how others worship"

See my prior post for the response to this statement, its exactly the same point and its exactly the same answer.

Your answer does not apply to the point since the regulations that you speak of were for squelshing pride, to keep people from showing off.  As I have said before it is up to those in authority to handle such situations as they feel lead.  But my point is not dealing with someone who is showing of or operating in pride.  It was spacifically dealing with someone who is focas only upon God and then someone else gets distracted by it.  Against such worship there is no law.  No should there ever be.  In fact those who try to inforce a law against such worship will be cursed and are cursed.

Since your answer does not accurately respond to the specifics of the point, but rather responds to your own point, it does not apply and is therefore not valid. 

 

[SnuP]

Originally posted by Andrew
I think it all depends on who's attending who's church. eg if I go to a traditional service, i dont start clapping loudly, raising my hands or dancing around -- that's simply not love -- and I'm not called there to change their whole style of worship.

I agree, it would also be going against the established authority in the service, and therefore sin (rebellion).

 

[Outspoken]

"I think it all depends on who's attending who's church"

I agree, as long as they stay in the biblical confines of how to use a gift.

" Of course I was distracted"

then I would say they might need to re-read some passages then.

"It was spacifically dealing with someone who is focas only upon God and then someone else gets distracted by it."

Doesn't happen if you are involved in a corperate worship.

"In fact those who try to inforce a law against such worship will be cursed and are cursed."

Ahh, I see you are inserting your own words here. Are you going to curse me as well? I think you would have said the same curse to paul when he wrote his letters.

"Since your answer does not accurately respond to the specifics of the point"

yes, it does fully. If someone is being distracted and both people are focused on God, then the person doing the distracting should stop.

 

[Andrew]

I agree, it would also be going against the established authority in the service, and therefore sin (rebellion).

exactly good point. whom am I -- to tell the ordained Pastor/leaders how their worship is to be done? I'm just visitor.

" Of course I was distracted"
then I would say they might need to re-read some passages then.

no you misunderstnd. what they were doing (in terms of worship style) was totally biblical. it was me who was not that "free" in worship yet. my rational mind said it was quite silly but my spirit was enjoying it, so i went with my spirit and told my mind to shut up. my church claps and raises hands, but we're not to the dancing part yet.

 

[SnuP]

Then you miss understood the point of pauls letters. They were to fix are heart problem of the people in the church. Worshiping in spirit and truth has no heart problem and there for has no regulations.

I wasn't inserting my own words, I was spacifically refering to two different passages of scripture simutaneously. Sorry if you miss it.

If you believe that it doesn't happen in corperate worship then you have not experienced real worship. Maybe you should reread the vision that I posted and medditate on its meaning.

 

[Outspoken]

"it was me who was not that "free" in worship yet."

Ahh, okay, a point you did not make clear, or I did not understand. What the problem was it seems is that you didn't know how to worship that way. Correct?

"They were to fix are heart problem of the people in the church"

Exactly the problem was unorderly worship and people being a distraction.

"I was spacifically refering to two different passages of scripture simutaneously. Sorry if you miss it. "

so where in scripture does it say I'm cursed then?

"If you believe that it doesn't happen in corperate worship then you have not experienced real worship."

it doesn't, check the scripture for yourself. I have posted the ones already.