What are they afraid of?

[SnuP]

Originally posted by Andrew
no you misunderstnd. what they were doing (in terms of worship style) was totally biblical. it was me who was not that "free" in worship yet. my rational mind said it was quite silly but my spirit was enjoying it, so i went with my spirit and told my mind to shut up. my church claps and raises hands, but we're not to the dancing part yet.

I think that you would be very distracted in my church.  You perfectly displayed the proper attitude and relay exacly what I have been trying to get across about the distracted being the one at fault.

If my pastor has chosen to allow dance in our service, and twenty people come in and are distracted by it, then those twenty people need to do what Andrew did.  If they try to stop a dancer then they are just as much in rebellion as some one dancing in a traditional service, and they have become a distraction to the dancer.

 

[SnuP]

Originally posted by Outspoken
"it was me who was not that "free" in worship yet."

Ahh, okay, a point you did not make clear, or I did not understand. What the problem was it seems is that you didn't know how to worship that way. Correct?

"They were to fix are heart problem of the people in the church"

Exactly the problem was unorderly worship and people being a distraction.

"I was spacifically refering to two different passages of scripture simutaneously. Sorry if you miss it. "

so where in scripture does it say I'm cursed then?

"If you believe that it doesn't happen in corperate worship then you have not experienced real worship."

it doesn't, check the scripture for yourself. I have posted the ones already.

If you are under the law then you are under a curse.

If you don't think that personal worship happens within corporate worship, then you can not understand most of what I am talking about, since you don't have the experience to understand.  The scriptures that you have chosen does not contradict me.  If you had experience the type of worship that I'm talking about, then you would understand that too.

 

[Outspoken]

"If you are under the law then you are under a curse."

This has nothing to do with the context of this dialouge

"If you don't think that personal worship happens within corporate worship, then you can not understand most of what I am talking about, "

1. prove that biblically. Corperate and personal worship seem to be at odds. I could see some happening, but not all, that would be obscene (doing something in publid that should be done in private).

"If you had experience the type of worship that I'm talking about, then you would understand that too."

Sorry, christianity is not subjective truth and the "I have experience so you don't understand" card doesn't work. Christ himself said thats the wrong way to go about. From a historical perspective, that's a gnostic thought....special/secret knowledge that not everyone has.

 

[SnuP]

Originally posted by Outspoken
"If you are under the law then you are under a curse."

This has nothing to do with the context of this dialouge

"If you don't think that personal worship happens within corporate worship, then you can not understand most of what I am talking about, "

1. prove that biblically. Corperate and personal worship seem to be at odds. I could see some happening, but not all, that would be obscene (doing something in publid that should be done in private).

"If you had experience the type of worship that I'm talking about, then you would understand that too."

Sorry, christianity is not subjective truth and the "I have experience so you don't understand" card doesn't work. Christ himself said thats the wrong way to go about. From a historical perspective, that's a gnostic thought....special/secret knowledge that not everyone has.

Didn't think that you would understand, the curse does apply but you won't see that if you are locked into a mindset.

Reread the vision (#40).  Often times we don't see the truth untill God shows us.  The vision that God showed me was one way that God showed me the truth about worship.  If you are lock into a mind set about worship, no amount of argueing will help.  The problem is not my view of scripture but rather your doctrine that has dictated a view of scripture to you.  Scripture and experience go hand in hand.  That is why God gives us a testimony.  All experiences will back up scripture and scripture will show you the truth about experiences.  But you need revelation knowledge to understand scripture.  Revelation knowledge frequently comes within experience.  You probably don't believe in revelation knowledge of the scripture.  But I believe that no scripture can be understood without it.  God must give the understanding.

And no it is not secret/special knowledge that only I have.  I usually find that once I recieve a revelation, my covering had it long before I was even considering it.

 

[Outspoken]

"Didn't think that you would understand, the curse does apply but you won't see that if you are locked into a mindset. "

now how is this at all constructive to this conversation. I could easily say to you, you're locked in a mind set so its no wonder you can't understand paul's words. Statements like this are not constructive to the converstation at all.

"Scripture and experience go hand in hand"

I disagree. People can be wrong. Take Peter for instance. His testmony was that you should follow the law. He was wrong. Testimony can be decieving that is why we have the bible. Experience is secondary to God's word.

"You probably don't believe in revelation knowledge of the scripture. "

I do, but no revelation will contradict scripture as your experience seems to do now.

 

[Andrew]

btw Outspoken,

what kind of praise and worship is 'biblical' to you? How does your church do it? Traditional? Charismatic? inbetween? what's 'acceptable/unacceptable'.

 

[Outspoken]

"what kind of praise and worship is 'biblical' to you? How does your church do it? Traditional? Charismatic? inbetween? what's 'acceptable/unacceptable'."

Well we have a mix in our congragation. We have people that are charasmatic, and people that are traditional. Maybe if you name some specifics I can give you the "flavor" you're asking about.

 

[SnuP]

Originally posted by Outspoken
"Didn't think that you would understand, the curse does apply but you won't see that if you are locked into a mindset. "

now how is this at all constructive to this conversation. I could easily say to you, you're locked in a mind set so its no wonder you can't understand paul's words. Statements like this are not constructive to the converstation at all.

"Scripture and experience go hand in hand"

I disagree. People can be wrong. Take Peter for instance. His testmony was that you should follow the law. He was wrong. Testimony can be decieving that is why we have the bible. Experience is secondary to God's word.

"You probably don't believe in revelation knowledge of the scripture. "

I do, but no revelation will contradict scripture as your experience seems to do now.

Peoples interpretations of experiences can be wrong but an experience is still an experience.  It exist so there for it cannot be wrong. 

Statements like your experience is not scriptural is not constructive to a conversation.

My interpratation of that scripture as well as most of the individuals in my church, find that my experience in this matter to be in complete agreement.

Whats the point in continuing in a discousion if we disagree on an interpretation but you keep telling me that mine is wrong.

As I have said, personal worship draws you into corperate worship without loosing the intimacy of personal worship.

When I spend time with my father, that is personal and it doesn't matter if the whole family is involved or not, it is still personal.

It's the picture of John laying his head upon Jesus's breast at the last supper.  Personal in a corperate setting.  Personal and corperate.  All of the sheep staring at the shepard.  That is true unity.  And it doesn't matter as much if they happen to notice each other.  Learn the lesson of Peter on the water.  When you take your eyes off of God you get distracted.  Its not the waves fault, it's yours.  If we all focas our eyes on Jesus the we will be of one mind and one accord.  That corperate, and that personal.  I don't no how to make it any simpler.

 

[SnuP]

Experience is secondary to God's word

God's word is secondary to revelation of God's word

God gave me a revelation of the relationship between personal and corperate worship.  And all that you can say is that it isn't scriptural.  And then I say yes it is.

If I say that God gave me a revelation, your job in this conversation is to prove that revelation wrong.  That you have not done.  Instead you just keep saying that not scriptural.  And then I say yes it is. 

 

[Andrew]

Well we have a mix in our congragation. We have people that are charasmatic, and people that are traditional.

so how do these 2 grps worship together? Do the charismatics just raise hands and all that and the traditionalists just ignore? or r there 2 services -- contemp & traditional?

 

[SUNSTONE]

Originally posted by Blackhawk
 

I do not remember saying that any form of worship is really wrong.  I just said that God directs us to certain types of worship at certain times and that we need to think of others during corporate worship.   



So you do not care if you are a stumbling block to others? HMM.   



No.



The Bible is full of instances where God required a certain type of worship and others were condemmed at that time period.  I think of Aaron's kids that God killed because of their improper worship or how King Uzziah was stricken with leporsey because he wanted to worship god his way and not God's.  The list could go on and on.  How about the guy who was killed because they did not carry the ark in the right way?  Tell me if you want more examples. 



I think this quote speaks for itself.  Read the verse you quoted and then read what you said.  Then think about it. 



Provoked?  I do not know what you mean.  If someone is worshipping in a way God would not have them worship at that time then I think they should stop.  Is that wrong?  Why would God call you not to think of others and if they can worship God? Do you see in the Bible God calling us to a more community type pf lifestyle where we help eachother worship Christ more or one where each of us are just concerned about our own worship?  Just some questions to think about. 

Show me verses on corporate worship please. I have shown you about king David and how he worshipped.

Paul said don't do anything that would make your brother stumble.
The stumbleing he is referring to is, falling into sin. I don't see how someone who worshipping God with all there might would provoke someone to stumble(sin). In fact Davids wife was out of line for telling him to stop worshipping God the way he did.

 

[SUNSTONE]

God talked to me this weekend, about this topic and other debate topics.

He said, I am right in the worship, speaking in tongues, and healings as well as the other gifts. He has taught me, and is still teaching me on these subjects. The truth is, I am not at the level of worshipping God the way David did. That to me, is the highest level of worship you can do on earth, and is something that you grow into.

God said because of my heart felt prayers of pushing into Him, He has shown me many things, that many Christians haven't yet seen, due to there hearts. He also told me there is alot that He hasn't shown me, because of how tight my heart still is. He said, He will not be mocked, we(Christians) will reap what we sow, wether good or bad.

He also told me to stop with all this argueing over words, which leads to strife. I have put to much of my passion and energy into these debates, I have prioritys that I am ignoring due to these debates. So I have my orders, and I plan on following them. I will still be on the forums, but this time with different replys. I pray that I will no longer try to force pearls onto pigs. By me doing that, is an insult to the Teacher/Master. He said, "Am I not a good enough teacher?"

So I pray for everyone here, including myself that we all be transformed to the word, instead of the word transformed to us. In Jesus name.

 

[Outspoken]

"It exist so there for it cannot be wrong. "

Yes, in that it exsists, BUT that doesn't make it a correct experience now does it

"When I spend time with my father, that is personal and it doesn't matter if the whole family is involved or not, it is still personal."

Ahh..but along this line of thinking, would you discuss your personal darkest deepest secrets with your father with many many other people present? I agree personal worship can take place during corperate worship insomuch as that it can be a personal experience, but I don't see how this relates to the distraction theme we have been discussing.

"God gave me a revelation of the relationship between personal and corperate worship. And all that you can say is that it isn't scriptural. And then I say yes it is."

Okay, then what scripture can you show me that agrees with you? I see only the passage about david which wasn't dealing with the issue you say. I do see passages in the NT talking about how you shouldn't be distracting in worship and that seems to be relevant.


SnuP..if you hear nothing else, hear this. I am your brother in Christ. I may disagree with you on a biblical nonessential issue or two but I still regard you as a brother. If I say you're wrong its because I think so, and I don't want you to be trapped up in something I THINK is wrong. I may be wrong myself. I fully admit that. I just wanted to let you know that I do love you as a brother in Christ to put our discussion in context.

 

[Outspoken]

"so how do these 2 grps worship together? Do the charismatics just raise hands and all that and the traditionalists just ignore? or r there 2 services -- contemp & traditional?"

Well yup we do. We have people at both services that raise their hands when singing, etc. Is that what you where asking? We don't have people running around the church or anything like that because its disruptive.

 

[Outspoken]

Sun I talked to God long ago about this issue and he also said I was correct in my beliefs. Now what?

 

[SnuP]

Originally posted by Outspoken
"It exist so there for it cannot be wrong. "

Yes, in that it exsists, BUT that doesn't make it a correct experience now does it

If something exist, it is neither wrong or right.  Ideas are right and wrong.  Experiences are not actions.  peoples opinions about experiences are what is right or wrong, not the experience.  I see a cat on my way to work.  Seeing the cat is neither right or wrong, it just is.  Deciding to quit my job and become a vet just because it saw a cat, is wrong.

"When I spend time with my father, that is personal and it doesn't matter if the whole family is involved or not, it is still personal."

Ahh..but along this line of thinking, would you discuss your personal darkest deepest secrets with your father with many many other people present? I agree personal worship can take place during corperate worship insomuch as that it can be a personal experience, but I don't see how this relates to the distraction theme we have been discussing.

And I wouldn't have sex in public either, but that does not mean that I won't kiss my wife and hug my wife in public.  Worship is a time of displaying love.  Worship means love.  There is no inappropriate forms of worship discussed in the bible that cannot be display in a corperate setting.  Expressions of love are always intimate in nature.  Based upon how you seem to define worship in a corperate setting, it would be wrong to tell God "I love you" in public, rather I could only say "we as a body love you".  How can that personal expression be wrong.  When I dance with my mind soully upon Jesus that is what I'm saying.  Because I'm not expressing the view of the body that means that my person expression of "I love you" is wrong.

My sister is a wonderful dancer.  Her worship is always personal.  She told me about a time where she had a dance planned for a service as a ministery to the people.  When she dances as a ministery to the body her focas is always just to minister to God.  And then to allow God to minister to the body through her dance, but she just focases on ministering to Him.  One this occation she was so caught up in her ministery to God during the dance that she was unaware of what was happening around her.  God told one of the prophetesses in our church to going her in the dance.  The prophetess also dances without direct concern for the body when ministering to the body.  The two were dancing together in such a way that it seemed as if they were dancing with each other.  And they both had their eyes closed and did not know what the other was doing.  They were both so caught up in there personal worship of God.  My sister says that when see opened her eyes she realized what was happening.  She also noticed the dramatic effect that the dance was having on the congregation.  The annointing was really strong and many people were crying.

There were some in the service who were distracted because they were not used to that kind of thing.  I even think that some of them thought that dancing was wrong.  They could not see what God was doing.  So they just missed out.

"God gave me a revelation of the relationship between personal and corperate worship. And all that you can say is that it isn't scriptural. And then I say yes it is."

Okay, then what scripture can you show me that agrees with you? I see only the passage about david which wasn't dealing with the issue you say. I do see passages in the NT talking about how you shouldn't be distracting in worship and that seems to be relevant.

What you see is scriptures is Paul telling people that they should not have an agenda.  That they should not be self seeking.  It does not say that they should not let their worship of God, their pure worship become a distract.  I repeat, it does not say that.  These are the scriptures you brought up, so the you support your own interpretation and show the link.  Paul has never limited pure worship in any way.  There is no regulation in scripture refering to pure worship of God.  There is no such scripture.  You can only twist the existing scriptures to try and make them fit into a law governing true worship.  If you believe that the scriptures that you gave do limit true worship, then prove it. 

SnuP..if you hear nothing else, hear this. I am your brother in Christ. I may disagree with you on a biblical nonessential issue or two but I still regard you as a brother. If I say you're wrong its because I think so, and I don't want you to be trapped up in something I THINK is wrong. I may be wrong myself. I fully admit that. I just wanted to let you know that I do love you as a brother in Christ to put our discussion in context.

I do not hold your opinion against you.  And I don't think that I can be trapped by your theology.  The other night I grew very weary and did not want to argue any more.  I began to feel that the debate was just plan hopeless.  I believe that my motive had become corrupted and I was trying to convert you.  I'm sorry for that.  My main reason for being here is to just be an imbassadofor the beliefs that I hold dear without trying to personally change everyone .

 

[SUNSTONE]

Originally posted by Outspoken
Sun I talked to God long ago about this issue and he also said I was correct in my beliefs. Now what?

Tell me how do you know that it was God that talked to you?

The very songs that you sing are mostly written by David (Psalms). David worshipped God with "all his might" the bible says. So we have two sides, one says don't worship to crazy because of your brother, the other says do it  with "all your might" with raised hands, shout to the Lord all the earth, dance before the Lord.

So whos right? You have yet to show me any scripture that gives you a case. You say 1cor11+12, but those don't even have the word worship in them. You say that the phrase "all things" covers it. But your logic is over ruled by Davids example, because David went through the same thing and had the same arguement that we are having right now. Whats the difference between Davids arguement(which you say he was right) then are ares now? You say that people get offended, well did people get offended then?

The truth is David got even more "crazy" with worship, than any church today, that you may find.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by Outspoken

Well yup we do. We have people at both services that raise their hands when singing, etc. Is that what you where asking? We don't have people running around the church or anything like that because its disruptive.

Well, in your church it would be disruptive and totally out of order, because your Pastor does not allow that.  But in my church, my Pastor does allow, and even encourages it (we're talking about praise and worship not the middle of a sermon) so it would not be disruptive and out of order. 

 

 

[SnuP]

Originally posted by Quaffer
Well, in your church it would be disruptive and totally out of order, because your Pastor does not allow that.  But in my church, my Pastor does allow, and even encourages it (we're talking about praise and worship not the middle of a sermon) so it would not be disruptive and out of order. 

 

Notice that in her church the pastor has set the standard for worship.  He determines what is to be considered disruptive.  If some one else is distracted by what is happening they need to talk to the pastor and not those engaged in worship, else they will become a disruption.  And they will also be going against the pastors authority.

 

[Outspoken]

"Experiences are not actions"

Yes, the experience can exsist, but it can also be right or wrong. For example, you can be decieved into thinking something is correct, you do it, but the experience is a wrong one.

"Worship means love."

If you say so. I would describe it as praise.

"There is no inappropriate forms of worship discussed in the bible that cannot be display in a corperate setting."

Yes, there are. You can be distracting in private because there is no one to distract, but you cannot in a corperate setting. That is what Paul was talking about.

"There were some in the service who were distracted because they were not used to that kind of thing. I even think that some of them thought that dancing was wrong. "

ahh..now here I think is some of the problem. 1. if they were distracted there is something indeed wrong. 2. It could be them, or the dancers. People being moved to tears is emotionalism, and that doesn't always mean its the spirit moving, it just means people are being emotional. 3. You already place guilt on the distracted people, something you should not do since they might be distracted because of something that was done unbiblically in the dancing "service".

"I repeat, it does not say that. "

Yes, it does, in several places in fact. The spirit of the words Paul says goes to the very heart of this matter. Don't be distracting.

"If you believe that the scriptures that you gave do limit true worship, then prove it. "

So you think its okay to do anything in church, anything at all? I think you would fall under the same problem as the church at corinth, for that was their exact problem. Check 1 cor 14:40.

"I'm sorry for that. "

Appology accpeted

"Tell me how do you know that it was God that talked to you?"

Through scripture, others, nature itself. I prayed to God about this long ago and he answered me very clearly on it, there is no doubt in my mind, it was an answer from the same God that gave me my salvation.

"the other says do it with "all your might" with raised hands, shout to the Lord all the earth, dance before the Lord. "

i can worship with all my might and not be distracting. That's the place where you differ from me.

"You have yet to show me any scripture that gives you a case. "

I guess you haven't read my posts them.

"because your Pastor does not allow that."

No, it doesn't happen because its not biblical not because my pastor doesn't allow it. I have yet to see an example where corperate worship was happening in the bible and people were running around doing laps in church can you show me one? i think its very telling that you THINK he specifically disallowed it, because he did not. Our "carasmatic memembers" just know its distracting and don't do it I guess.