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I think people are reading more into these texts that is really there. I think waters is simply waters.
I have read the scripture many times and never saw the heavens as a solid dome........ If you have a modern knowledge of the heavens then you will not read "the solid dome" when studying the Bible.
This is the beauty of the scriptures as it has to be written simple enough to be understood through time and different languages. ......
If you think the heaven as a solid dome then you will read that in scripture.
The implication seems to be the waters are the raw unformed unorganized elements the Spirit used to create the organized world. Specifically Peter says the land was formed out of the water, and he most certainly was referring to Genesis 1:9-10.
I agree; the waters are the raw unformed unorganized elements, (water) out of which the Spirit made everything. I get the feeling that there was originally no night, only day, and twilight, thats just a hunch I suppose. I have a book by Robert Sungenis, its about the scientific evidence for a geocentric universe. The theory goes that space is no empty, it is actually a solid, (invisible) and other materials like planets are less dense objects, sitting within a solid space, a bit like the idea of space-time but with rejecting the theory of relativity altogether. Gravity is caused by the displacement of the either, by a less dense object than the either, attracting less dense material, to fill the displaced space.
About the darkness. It is a general feeling that there is more going on in the text than just a description of light and day. More like some sort of cosmic conspiracy; that there was a deal struck, perhaps with the darkness, in order for the material creation to go ahead. The darkness is where al the rubbish ends up, excluded from the light, at the end of time. 2 Peter also says that the universe will disintegrate with the elements, causing heat. Perhaps this happens because the will of God is l lifted, and everything disintegrates because there is nothing remaining to hold anything together in any order.
This article on the Firmament as a dome holding back the celestial waters is pertinent:
http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/Ted...s/Text/Articles-Books/Seely-Firmament-WTJ.pdf
A diagram of the Near-Eastern cosmology utilized in Genesis:
We first read of them in Genesis, before the Earth was even made. Also notice that the "heavens" were created in this same chapter as the "waters" are being organized. Sometimes I think the term "waters" has another meaning, maybe something like strings or the Higgs-boson. Something that all matter has in common. If we glean information from the rest of the bible, we see the elements will be destroyed with fervent heat and dissolve, if this is the case, then there must be something common throughout the heavens that can be effected at once.
I know scientists are looking for the "God particle", but that only explains a "unified theory", not necessarily a "common denominator" throughout the universe.
That is, however, how the Hebrews understood it.
We first read of them in Genesis, before the Earth was even made. Also notice that the "heavens" were created in this same chapter as the "waters" are being organized. Sometimes I think the term "waters" has another meaning, maybe something like strings or the Higgs-boson. Something that all matter has in common. If we glean information from the rest of the bible, we see the elements will be destroyed with fervent heat and dissolve, if this is the case, then there must be something common throughout the heavens that can be effected at once.
I know scientists are looking for the "God particle", but that only explains a "unified theory", not necessarily a "common denominator" throughout the universe.
Perhaps latter day hebrews, but not those in Moses' time and not the writer of Genesis 1:1-2:4. For starters, raquia (firmament) and heaven are one on the same.
When it comes to the account of the heavens and earth (Gen. 2:4), we are likely looking at perhaps the oldest writing in the world, passed down through the generations to Moses, who compiled early writings to compose Genesis.
That's not what the various references in the OT say. Instead, the firmament is a solid crystal dome that separates the earth from "the heavens". The heavens include the sun, moon, stars, and storehouses of water, snow, hail, etc. Rain happens when openings are made in the firmament and water above the firmament falls thru the opening to earth. You can see this in Genesis 7:11:
"In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened."
I suggest the book Genesis by Nahum Sarna.
Basically, the cosmology of the OT is the cosmology of the Babylonians. They had the most advanced "science" of the day, and the Hebrews simply borrowed it.
Sorry, but the Genesis 2 creation story is older. Genesis 1 was written toward the end or just after the Babylonian Captivity. Its purpose is to keep the Hebrews from defecting to the Babylonian religion.
Inthec, instead of trying to read modern science into Genesis 1, let's try looking at how the people of the time would have heard this and what it meant then. Remember, they don't know modern science, so the text isn't talking about strings, or the Higgs boson, or anything we know today. None of that would have made sense to them......
Perhaps latter day hebrews,
but not those in Moses' time and not the writer of Genesis 1:1-2:4.
For starters, raquia (firmament) and heaven are one on the same.
Some have suggested the hebrews believed the firmament was a barrier between the sky and heaven, but the text of Gen. is clear that heaven is the name of the firmament. The firmament is what God named heaven.
Later solid dome cosmologies are not compatible with this.
When it comes to the account of the heavens and earth (Gen. 2:4), we are likely looking at perhaps the oldest writing in the world,
passed down through the generations to Moses,
who compiled early writings to compose Genesis.
As we would expect, there would be spinoff stories which slightly changed and altered the original revelation, and it is from these the idea of a barrier between heaven and earth arose.
Later on some in ANE cultures may have named this barrier the raquia,
but when looking at the original text, it's clear this was not the original intent.
Myths about the structure of the cosmos likely came from distortions of the original text, but those distortions don't hold up next to the original text.
....Whoa, Cal, I hope we aren't going to have another post filled with unsupported statements. At least it's good to see that Lucaspa wrote such a complete and well supported response to it already.......]
There's not much to respond to here
As is your custom, when someone challenges your pet theories you get extremely defensive.
. But the irony is, you have yet to make a link from Genesis 1:1-2:4 to ANE cosmology.
Perhaps this is part of the JEDP myth you're blindly embracing.
But my post stands.
I've backed it up with the text which shows raqia and shamayim are one in the same.
If there is a link there, you should be able to support it with the text.
You keep claiming Genesis is based on a post mosaic cosmology that has a firmament dividing heaven and earth. Yet Genesis contradicts this and says that the firmament and heavens are one in the same.
Where's that text in the Bible that says, God made a firmament to divide heaven and earth??? Ball's in your court (or perhaps someone else can pull you out of this corner).
Even the issue with the waters above the firmament doesn't hold up to scripture. Scriptures says the waters are above the heavens, not the heavens above the waters as your diagram shows. But please defend your diagram if you can.
...maybe start by explaining what Paul means by the "third heaven", instead of ignoring my question in that post. If heaven is just the firmament, doesn't that mean there are three (or more) firmaments in your view?
You can see that Paul is talking about a non-physical heaven....
my pet theories? Cal, do you seriously think I came up with the ancient hebrew cosmology (AHC) as a flat earth under a hard dome? Have you never heard of that except from me? Since you don't seem to know, the realization that the AHC is a flat earth under a hard dome is from Biblical and historical scholars - it's not "my pet theory".
The link is that Genesis describes, step by step, the same ANE cosmology....
The idea of JEDP may or may not be exactly correct in detail, .....
You can even see this in the english - "firmament". Tell me, isn't something that is "firm" something that is hard, rigid, and solid?
I did previously, and I can post them again (in addition to Genesis itself, which makes it clear enough for the scholars).
Flat Earth-
Bible tells us that the earth is flat like a piece of clay stamped under a seal (Job 38:13-14), that it has edges as only a flat plane would (Job 38:13-14,.Psa 19:4), that it is a circular disk (Isa 40:22), and that its entire surface can be seen from a high tree (Dan 4:10-11) or mountain (Matt 4:8), which is impossible for a sphere, but possible for a flat disk. Taken literally, as the YECs insist we do, any one of these passages shows a flat earth. Taken together, they are even more clear.
We live in a Planetarium-
The Bible describes the sky (firmament -- literally "metal flattened by a hammer"- Gen 1:6-8, 1:14-17) as a solid dome, like a tent (Isa 40:22, Psa 19:4, 104:2), that is arched over the surface of the earth. It also has windows to let rain/snow in (Gen 7:11, 8:2, Deut 28:12, 2 Kings 7:2, Job 37:18, Mal 3:10, Rev 4:1). Ezekiel 1:22 and Job 37:18 even tell us that it's hard like bronze and sparkles like ice, that God walks on it (Job 22:14) and can be removed (Rev 6:14). Taken literally, as the YECs insist we do, these verses show a solid sky above us. And again, many Christians in history have interpreted it as such.
No, as you pointed out, the text says that God "Called the firmament heaven",...
Genesis 1:7 says that God made the firmament to divide the ocean....
genertic fallacyThese scholars also reject the resurrection in many cases. If you sole goal is to be inline with scholars, then christianity may not be for you.
genertic fallacy
Your attempting to discredit it by poisoning the sources that he is using. I.E. "You can't trust that source when they clam x, because they reject y."You probably meant generic fallacy?? Genetic? I hope I didn't commit a genetic fallacy. But in actuality it was Papias that was committing this fallacy. I was correcting him. In fact he was committing the authoritative fallacy, arguing that scholars were on his side. I simply showed why that was a bad argument. It's not a fallacy to point out fallacies.
Your attempting to discredit it by poisoning the sources that he is using. I.E. "You can't trust that source when they clam x, because they reject y."
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