What are the "Waters"?

[inthec]

We first read of them in Genesis, before the Earth was even made. Also notice that the "heavens" were created in this same chapter as the "waters" are being organized. Sometimes I think the term "waters" has another meaning, maybe something like strings or the Higgs-boson. Something that all matter has in common. If we glean information from the rest of the bible, we see the elements will be destroyed with fervent heat and dissolve, if this is the case, then there must be something common throughout the heavens that can be effected at once.

I know scientists are looking for the "God particle", but that only explains a "unified theory", not necessarily a "common denominator" throughout the universe.

 

[Calminian]

We first read of them in Genesis, before the Earth was even made. Also notice that the "heavens" were created in this same chapter as the "waters" are being organized. Sometimes I think the term "waters" has another meaning, maybe something like strings or the Higgs-boson. Something that all matter has in common. If we glean information from the rest of the bible, we see the elements will be destroyed with fervent heat and dissolve, if this is the case, then there must be something common throughout the heavens that can be effected at once.

I know scientists are looking for the "God particle", but that only explains a "unified theory", not necessarily a "common denominator" throughout the universe.

Those waters those waters. Something I've been pondering for a while. Yes, you are quite correct, they exist before the earth (land), but also before the ocean in verse 9.

I had always pictured a flooded planet when reading verse 2, kind of with the land still submerged, but something doesn't seem right about that anymore. When scripture talks about formless and void, I think it's telling us that originally the land and sea were not yet formed, and not yet in existence in that sense they exist now.

Peter tells us the earth (land) was formed from water and by water. I would speculate that in the beginning, God created the initial elements of the universe, and those were the waters. At the time, the land was not yet formed, but was simply a fluid mass of some kind with no shape. Just the initial elements were in existence at that time. You have to take into account that the hebrew language doesn't have a lot of words available to describe something like this, and so the hebrew word for waters was perhaps the best choice.

It's also interesting that space was not even formed yet at this time. The expanse (the rayqia) wasn't created until verse 6. This seems to be outer space since this is the expanse the stars were placed in. This served as a division of these primordial waters, and only after this was the land and sea formed out of a portion of the waters that were left over. So it stands to reason that our planet was not formed until verse 9 of the creation account.

At this point I would speculate these waters had nothing to do with our ocean, or even H2O, but some kind of primordial fluid.

 

[Forge3]

The unknown.

 

[inthec]

Those waters those waters. Something I've been pondering for a while. Yes, you are quite correct, they exist before the earth (land), but also before the ocean in verse 9.

I had always pictured a flooded planet when reading verse 2, kind of with the land still submerged, but something doesn't seem right about that anymore. When scripture talks about formless and void, I think it's telling us that originally the land and sea were not yet formed, and not yet in existence in that sense they exist now.

Peter tells us the earth (land) was formed from water and by water. I would speculate that in the beginning, God created the initial elements of the universe, and those were the waters. At the time, the land was not yet formed, but was simply a fluid mass of some kind with no shape. Just the initial elements were in existence at that time. You have to take into account that the hebrew language doesn't have a lot of words available to describe something like this, and so the hebrew word for waters was perhaps the best choice.

It's also interesting that space was not even formed yet at this time. The expanse (the rayqia) wasn't created until verse 6. This seems to be outer space since this is the expanse the stars were placed in. This served as a division of these primordial waters, and only after this was the land and sea formed out of a portion of the waters that were left over. So it stands to reason that our planet was not formed until verse 9 of the creation account.

At this point I would speculate these waters had nothing to do with our ocean, or even H2O, but some kind of primordial fluid.

Its something to ponder,indeed.

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.


This might have to do with the river which comes from Eden and parts into four. I think these are the four foundations of the world.


Also there are other interesting references to these waters.





Psalm 104:2-4

2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:

3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:
4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:


The "light as with a garment" is also interesting as it goes with these:

Genesis 9:13
I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.

Ezekiel 1:28

As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.

 

[KimberlyAA]

The disks of gas, dust and debris recently observed with modern infrared and millimetre wave instruments in nearby star systems are considered to act as locators to large colliding bodies. These observations are problematic for the evolutionary nebula theory of the formation of planetary systems, but can be easily interpreted from a creationist worldview. These cratering bodies could be analogues for the ‘waters above’, which in part were used by God during the Curse and the Flood. In this view, the ‘waters above’ would represent all the bodies, large and small, that lay beyond Neptune in our solar system, including all the cometary material, mostly made of water ice. The total amount today only equals about 0.43 M⊕, but before the Curse it may have been as much as 100 times more. Some of these large colliders left their mark on the earth’s surface as impact craters, as seen today from space. Some may even have triggered the Flood. Spectroscopic analysis of the Kuiper Belt Object Quaoar reveals that its surface comprises crystalline water ice and ammonia hydrate. Both of these should have been destroyed by energetic particle irradiation over timescales of 107 years, so their existence is evidence for a young solar system and against a 5-billion-year timescale. In addition, Quaoar’s spectrum, in the 1 to 2.5 μm band, is very similar to that of Charon, the moon of Pluto, which has long been suspected of being a captured KBO. Evidence is thus mounting that these objects may be the remains of a watery halo as in the ‘waters above’.

Then God said, “Let there be a space between the waters, to separate the waters of the heavens from the waters of the earth.”And that is what happened. God made this space to separate the waters of the earth from the waters of the heavens.God called the space “sky.” And evening passed and morning came, marking the second day. (Genesis 1:6-8)

Then God said, “Let lights appear in the sky to separate the day from the night. Let them be signs to mark the seasons, days, and years. Let these lights in the sky shine down on the earth.” And that is what happened. God made two great lights—the larger one to govern the day, and the smaller one to govern the night. He also made the stars. God set these lights in the sky to light the earth, to govern the day and night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. And evening passed and morning came, marking the fourth day. (Genesis 1:14-19)

We see here the description of God’s creative acts on Days 2 and 4 of Creation Week. But the question may well be asked, ‘Where is the “water above”?’ as Genesis 1:7 ends with the phrase ‘from the water above it [the expanse]’. God calls the expanse sky and this is verified when we read in verse 20 that birds fly through it, but it must also include the space above the atmosphere because Genesis 1:14, 15 and 17, says the expanse contains at least the sun, the moon and the planets.

In 2 Peter we read:

They deliberately forget that God made the heavens by the word of his command, and he brought the earth out from the water and surrounded it with water. Then he used the water to destroy the ancient world with a mighty flood. And by the same word, the present heavens and earth have been stored up for fire. They are being kept for the day of judgment, when ungodly people will be destroyed. (2 Peter 3:5-7)

The ‘waters above’ may be in a halo around the solar system, locked up in the form of frozen ices, dirty comets and other large chunks of frozen material. This formed part of a Young Solar System model. Clearly, from Genesis 1:2 and 2 Peter 3:5 both the earth and the ‘waters above’ are formed out of water. The majority of the floodwaters of Noah’s Flood most likely came from the existing water created on and inside the earth, given their pre-eminence in Genesis 7:11. It is also feasible that the waters above, in the form of icy comets, were part of the ‘windows of heaven’, and even possibly triggered the Flood. The many impact craters on the earth, the moon and other planets suggest a period of cosmic bombardment, and their location in the sedimentary record indicates it occurred during the Flood. Cosmic bombardment also possibly took place when God cursed the universe, and the whole order of things changed. These objects might play a major part in the coming judgment of the ungodly in the Day of our Lord. Objects classified as KBOs by secular astronomy may be the remnants of that halo.

The regions where dust and debris are detected in other star systems may be a guide to the region of the ‘waters above’ in our solar system.

By looking at other star systems, astronomers have been able to analyze the size and extent of the associated disks of dust and debris around parent stars. Cool, dusty debris disks around main-sequence stars have been detected using specialised telescopes, which ‘see’ at wavelengths in the near-infrared and submillimetre bands. The technique involves the fact that the dust particles are illuminated by the radiation from the parent star and reradiate in the appropriate wavelengths.

The emissions, to some extent, penetrate the dust clouds and are detected by instruments on telescopes on Earth and in orbit on the IRASand ISO satellites.

Dozens of such stars within about 60 parsecs have been identified. Many have a non-axisymmetric structure, suggesting a planet in the disk region. The COBE satellite has also found that clumps of dust lead and trail the earth in its orbit around the sun in a similar fashion. In many of these cases, where a planet has been suspected, the distance to the possible planet is of the same order as the distance to Neptune in our solar system.

Zuckerman and Song provide a large amount of data for many stellar systems with dust clouds. In the figure, this data has been reproduced by plotting the characteristic orbital radii of the dust clouds (Rdust), as a function of the temperature (Tstar) and radius (Rstar) of the star. The radius of the dust cloud was calculated from the model Rdust = (Rstar/2)(Tstar/Tdust)2, where Rstar, Tstar and Tdust are all measured. The size of the dust cloud shows a clear trend as either a function of the star’s temperature or radius. Our sun’s temperature (5,800 K) is marked by the solid line.

Reading off the graph, the inner and outer characteristic radii for our solar system are 10 AU and 55 AU, respectively. A reasonable assumption is that these regions of dust also include the other elements such as hydrocarbons, water and volatile molecules, that are often detected in spectra. This region is consistent with the Kuiper Belt, or more precisely with a region extending from the orbit of Neptune: 30 AU to about 55 AU.

There has been little evidence of solar systems around any star of similar spectral type as our Sun. However, ε-Eridani, which is relatively close at 3.22 pc, has some similar features. Using the SCUBA camera at 850 μm wavelengths, studies of the dust ring around ε-Eridani indicate a peak density around 60 AU with much lower emission inside 30 AU. The mass of the ring is at least 0.01 M⊕ (0.01 of the earth’s mass), with an upper limit of 0.4 M⊕ in molecular gas from CO observations.

This total is comparable to the estimated amount of similar material in comets orbiting in our solar system (0.33 M&#8853. The figure below shows the region of debris circling ε-Eridani. This may indicate the region in our own solar system where we should look for the ‘waters above’.

The Kuiper Belt extends roughly from the orbit of Neptune to about 50 AU. As of 2004, more than 700 large objects of up to approximately 1,000 km in diameter have been identified. This may currently be the region holding most of the remaining ‘waters above’.

The trans-Neptunian objects include both Pluto and its moon Charon, which is about 12% the mass of Pluto. Pluto’s mass is 0.002 M⊕ and has a surface temperature of about 35–45 K. Water is solid at this temperature, and other gases are either condensed as a liquid or frozen. Both Pluto and Charon have measured densities slightly higher than water ice, consistent with other KBOs, which are composed of mostly ice and some rock.

Other large KBOs are now being discovered in the Kuiper Belt, such as Quaoar and Sedna that are believed to be mostly ice. Quaoar, at 43.6 AU, is composed mostly of low-density ices mixed with rock, not unlike the makeup of a comet. Sedna ranges from 76 AU to 1,000 AU in a highly elliptical orbit. Both have masses about one third of the asteroid belt, or about 10–4 M⊕ .

Due to our proximity to the sun, direct measurement of the dust in the Kuiper Belt is difficult. However, the indirect detection of dust is probably a marker to clouds of larger grains and clumps of frozen material in the region beyond Neptune.

If we sum the estimates of Pluto and Charon with an estimate for all KBOs and the cometary material, we get a figure close to 0.43 M⊕.

It is well known that comets are essentially dirty balls of ice, ranging in diameter up to 10 km. The term ‘waters above’ may not strictly limit our thinking to H2O—though there is a lot of that in the solar system. We should also include other forms of ices, such as solid hydrogen and oxygen, both of which may be derived from water.

Recent data from spectral analysis of the surface of Quaoar in 1 to 2.5 μm band indicates Quaoar’s surface is at least covered with crystalline water ice and ammonia hydrate, both of which contain water. This is consistent with the composition originally being part of the water that was separated from the ‘waters below’. Moreover, it has been stated that both of these types of crystals should be destroyed by energetic particle irradiation over timescales of 107 years. These crystals still being present, though consistent with a young solar system, is evidence against a 5 billion-year-old solar system. To counter this, the authors, thinking within the evolutionary long-age mindset, concluded that Quaoar must have recently been resurfaced by impacts or cryovolcanic outgassing.

In addition Quaoar’s spectrum, in the 1 to 2.5 μm band, is very similar to that of Charon, which has long been suspected of being a captured KBO. Therefore, it too contains a lot of water as well as other ices like ammonia hydrate. Evidence is then mounting that these objects may be the remains of a watery halo as in the ‘waters above’.

It is also worth noting that both Uranus at 19 AU from the sun and Neptune at 30 AU are both composed mostly of hydrogen and to a lesser extent helium, with small amounts of methane and other gases. Neptune is roughly 17 M⊕ and Uranus is about 14.5 M⊕. However, they were not included in the ‘waters above’ in this analysis, even though they both lie within the 10–55 AU range of typical debris disks for other Sun-like stars in the 1st figure. It is likely that they were created for another purpose, as they are part of the four Jovian planets. They appear to be located where they are—outside the orbit of the inner planets, including Earth—to prevent potentially damaging large objects from hitting Earth. Jupiter particularly acts as a cosmic vacuum cleaner, attracting stray comets to crash into it rather than travelling to the inner solar system.

Planetary disks, or the disks around stars that are thought to evolve into planetary systems, have not shown any strong trend with their supposed evolutionary age. Secular cosmologists had expected that as a star ages its associated disk would also evolve towards solar systems like ours. The amount of gas should decrease with time as planetesimals form and eventually become planets. One study of six T-Tauri stars is quoted as saying:

‘The lack of strong evolutionary trends is somewhat surprising, given that the stars were chosen as an age sequence over the era up to ~ 15 Myr after which the gas is believed to disappear. Also, the initial conditions should have been similar, given that the targets lie in a single star-formation region. It might therefore be expected that the discs would change systematically with time, even in the limited-size sample studied here.’

It seems a substantial reservoir of gas remains during the 1–10 Myr phase of the T-Tauri systems, if we are to believe that these systems are indicative of an evolutionary change. This is a surprise to Greaves, the author of the study, who went on to declare:

‘Thus the expected evolutionary trends have not been confirmed … . The dense gas discs are generally similar in size regardless of age … and a cleared cavity is confirmed only for the oldest star.’

 

[Calminian]

Its something to ponder,indeed.

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.


This might have to do with the river which comes from Eden and parts into four. I think these are the four foundations of the world.

I don't think it has anything to do with a river, as the land and sea were not yet even formed at this time.

and notice the 1-1 correspondence between the firmament and heaven. The heavens are the formal name God gave to the firmament (the expanse in all other translations). Later when God formed the dry ground, land (erets) was the formal name give to it. And the sea is the formal name give to the gather waters.

According to this account, the firmament and heaven are one in the same. I don't think we're dealing with just the earths atmosphere here, and good thing since earth as a planet wasn't formed yet (no land and sea until verse 9-10).

Also there are other interesting references to these waters.

Psalm 104:2-4

2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:

3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:
4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:


The "light as with a garment" is also interesting as it goes with these:

Genesis 9:13
I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.

Ezekiel 1:28

As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.

I don't think any of the above are references to the waters of Gen. 1:2-6, though. Waters throughout scripture can refer to a range of things. The only O.T. reference to these waters that I know of is found is found in Psalms.

Psalm 148:4
Praise Him, you heavens of heavens, And you waters above the heavens!​

This Psalm is particularly interesting as it implies the writer still believed the waters were still up there (whatever the waters were, are). And notice they are above the heavens rather than in the heavens like the clouds.

In appears in biblical nomenclature, heaven is the vast realm that is above the earth, which includes where the clouds dwell, and higher where the stars dwell.

And the only N.T. reference I can think of is from Peter.

2 Peter 3:5
For [a]when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water,​

Here Peter seems to be commenting directly in Genesis 1:6-10. He believed God formed our land out of a fluid of some sort.

Other references to clouds, rain etc., are to just plain water. There's something much different about the waters of Gen. 1:2-8.

 

[inthec]

Interesting posts. But Im hung up on the idea of the waters in the first of Genesis be something along the lines of whatever it is that allows our universe exist, I think that something is what scientists are looking for. From my perspective it seems there are four spirits of God which are called the foundations of the heavens.

Zechariah 6:5
And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the LORD of all the earth.

These four spirits are the four beasts which hold up the firmament in Ezekiel and Revelation. Or....the four rivers in Genesis.


2 Samuel 22:8
The earth trembled and quaked,
the foundations of the heavens shook;
they trembled because he was angry.

2 Samuel 22:16
The valleys of the sea were exposed and the foundations of the earth laid bare at the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of breath from his nostrils.

Psalm 102:25
In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.

Proverbs 3:19
By wisdom the Lord laid the earth’s foundations,
by understanding he set the heavens in place;
20 by his knowledge the watery depths were divided,
and the clouds let drop the dew.


Isaiah 48:13
My own hand laid the foundations of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I summon them, they all stand up together.

Zechariah 12:1
The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

 

[inthec]

Also interesting to note that in Revelation, the sea of glass, which the four spirits hold apart, is no more after it is turned into a lake of fire.

Revelation 21:1
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

But we know that he will form a new heaven and earth to be before the throne again:


Isaiah 66:22
For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

It seems that all the visions that describe what is in front of the throne have to do with us, his creation. So to get an idea on what is going on, we should study those things.

 

[Calminian]

Interesting posts. But Im hung up on the idea of the waters in the first of Genesis be something along the lines of whatever it is that allows our universe exist, I think that something is what scientists are looking for. From my perspective it seems there are four spirits of God which are called the foundations of the heavens.

Zechariah 6:5
And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the LORD of all the earth.

These four spirits are the four beasts which hold up the firmament in Ezekiel and Revelation. Or....the four rivers in Genesis.


2 Samuel 22:8
The earth trembled and quaked,
the foundations of the heavens shook;
they trembled because he was angry.

2 Samuel 22:16
The valleys of the sea were exposed and the foundations of the earth laid bare at the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of breath from his nostrils.

Psalm 102:25
In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.

Proverbs 3:19
By wisdom the Lord laid the earth’s foundations,
by understanding he set the heavens in place;
20 by his knowledge the watery depths were divided,
and the clouds let drop the dew.


Isaiah 48:13
My own hand laid the foundations of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I summon them, they all stand up together.

Zechariah 12:1
The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

I think I agree that at least the waters mentioned in Genesis 1:2-8 are perhaps not H2O but something else. Some fluid. Something formless and shapeless, yet material—the very material used to form the land and sea. I think we have to be careful not to impose modern nomenclature into the term.

But when scripture starts talking about stretching the heavens, this has to do with the separation of the waters in verse 6-8. The populating of the heavens happens later.

Don't know if I'm following the four spirits you bring up.

I do think it's interesting that God only used part of the original waters to creation the land and sea, and the rest were taken away separated from us by the expanse of heaven. It's also interesting that the Psalmist said those waters were still up there above the heavens. Will God perhaps use those waters to form the new earth sometime in the future. Could he be saving them for that?

 

[inthec]

I think I agree that at least the waters mentioned in Genesis 1:2-8 are perhaps not H2O but something else. Some fluid. Something formless and shapeless, yet material—the very material used to form the land and sea. I think we have to be careful not to impose modern nomenclature into the term.

But when scripture starts talking about stretching the heavens, this has to do with the separation of the waters in verse 6-8. The populating of the heavens happens later.

Don't know if I'm following the four spirits you bring up.

I do think it's interesting that God only used part of the original waters to creation the land and sea, and the rest were taken away separated from us by the expanse of heaven. It's also interesting that the Psalmist said those waters were still up there above the heavens. Will God perhaps use those waters to form the new earth sometime in the future. Could he be saving them for that?

Could be, maybe a different construct?

If you read Ezekiel chapter 1 what is described I think is Gods creation spread out beneath the throne. His footstool. This is His creation, and in Revelation, we also see the same description, and it burns up and is done away with. Which kind of makes sense because if you make something you would like to have it before you.

Throughout the bible there is reference to the four winds of heaven, the foundations of the earth, the four spirits of God, the four beasts which hold this "sea" apart. Each seems to have its own quadrant, as described in Ezekiel. They also have a multitude of angels under them, which I believe are the "eyes" in the wheels.

I have question and I wonder if anyone has come up with the same answer as I....Is Eden on this earth? IMO, it is not. Reason being man was driven out from there and that is where the Tree of Life is. That tree is still there if we read the last chapter in Revelation. It never went anywhere. So man lived in a higher state before the fall.

It seems as if man was cast out and wanders between the four rivers , he cant get back through the "parting of the ways" or the river which proceeds from the throne. So everything this side of the flaming sword is the "earthy" side, the other side of the flaming sword is the "real heaven". SO , in effect, the four rivers produce our reality.

Now interestingly, if you draw a mental image, you see a four sided pyramid, with God at the top, where Eden is and the river issues from.

Perhaps this might have something to do with:

Matthew 21:
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.


The stone is the top missing on the great pyramid. It signifies God in Eden, the rest of the pyramid signifies creation. The builders rejected the top stone, they are waiting to put their own on it. The kingdom of God is also "the vineyard"



Mark12:

9 What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others.
10 And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:


The "new heaven and earth" will be given to those who are in the Book of Life.


I will be gone for a few days, so hope to get back with you then....Thanks for reading..

 

[Calminian]

Could be, maybe a different construct?

If you read Ezekiel chapter 1 what is described I think is Gods creation spread out beneath the throne. His footstool. This is His creation, and in Revelation, we also see the same description, and it burns up and is done away with. Which kind of makes sense because if you make something you would like to have it before you.

I would only comment on this that earth (land, erets) is called God's footstool, whereas heaven (that in which the stars dwell) is referred to as His throne. Thus, the bible states that heaven is that which is above the earth or everything that is above the earth.

In scripture the world is divided into 3 components—earth sea and heaven.

Exodus 20:11
For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them,.....

You'll see this theme over and over and over. It's also important to note that all are distinct. Earth in scripture always means land. It never refers to a land/sea unit as we think of when we think of planet earth. Thus the ends of the earth always refer to coastlines where the land (earth) ends.

Ancient nomenclature can be stumbling, as we sometimes import our nomenclature into scripture.

I said all that just to say, I don't think it's right to consider all of creation God's footstool. Some of His creation serves as His throne. If I read the bible in a straightforward way, God's throne is the physical cosmos, while his footstool is the physical earth.

I have question and I wonder if anyone has come up with the same answer as I....Is Eden on this earth? IMO, it is not. Reason being man was driven out from there and that is where the Tree of Life is. That tree is still there if we read the last chapter in Revelation. It never went anywhere. So man lived in a higher state before the fall.

Now by earth I'm assuming you're referring to planet earth. I would say it was at least still here for a period of time, and I don't see any evidence that that geographic area known as Eden has moved. If it is man still has no access. In Revelations we're told,

“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.”’​

However, this is speaking about the future, in the new heavens and new land. That's when we'll have access to it. But it also revealed that this tree is now in the "paradise of God" which seems to point to the 3rd heaven that Paul spoke about. The perhaps it was moved somewhere above the land up in the sky somewhere. Maybe it's millions of light years away, on a special planet.

It seems as if man was cast out and wanders between the four rivers , he cant get back through the "parting of the ways" or the river which proceeds from the throne. So everything this side of the flaming sword is the "earthy" side, the other side of the flaming sword is the "real heaven". SO , in effect, the four rivers produce our reality.

I don't see any reference to man being stuck between 4 rivers in Genesis. 4 preflood rivers are mentioned, but those were inside of the Garden as well as outside.

Plus, I don't see anywhere in scripture descriptions of a non-physical heaven. Heaven is metaphysically described in the same way earth is in Genesis 1.

I think men may have been tempted to spiritualize heaven during the geocentrism astronomy days when men believe that the heavens revolved around the earth. That would mean God's throne was revolving around the earth, and would cause theological problems. So the idea of a spiritual non-geographical heaven was born.

But in our time of cosmological enlightenment, there is no theological need for a spiritual heaven.

Now interestingly, if you draw a mental image, you see a four sided pyramid, with God at the top, where Eden is and the river issues from.

Perhaps this might have something to do with:

Matthew 21:
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.


The stone is the top missing on the great pyramid. It signifies God in Eden, the rest of the pyramid signifies creation. The builders rejected the top stone, they are waiting to put their own on it. The kingdom of God is also "the vineyard"



Mark12:

9 What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others.
10 And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:


The "new heaven and earth" will be given to those who are in the Book of Life.


I will be gone for a few days, so hope to get back with you then....Thanks for reading..

I will say that pyramids are a very fascinating aspect of ancient man's archeological history. They do seem to appear everywhere on the globe, and many speculate that Babel was a pyramid. I think I would agree that many of these passages seem to suggest the writers had a pyramid image in mind.

 

[decent orange]

I'm just brainstorming here so forgive me. The waters may be a way to describe one of the four spirits that are the foundation of our being. It could be a type of spiritual teaching or philosophy.


One type of water is pure and uncorrupted, and the other type is lesser and passed around among men. Water satisfies the body, and philosophy of various types satisfies the soul. Without thinking the mind is not conciouss, it needs spiritual waters to live.


The types of waters were seperated by the firmament according to its place. One of the waters were on one side of the firmament, and the other waters were on the otherside of the firmament.


A little deep I guess, but I usually look at the Bible both physically and spiritually. Everything physical seems to also have a spiritual significance for the individual on the lowest level, and the collective universe on a higher level.

 

[drjean]

I know you're posting in origins ... and I think I'm in line with that (But I still have a fever so bear with me?)...

I have had thinking along the same line as you, but from the other end of the Book...Revelation. Where it talks about God's voice being as many waters... I immediately sensed a distortion in the time-space continuum might cause that... God being multi directional etc omnipresent, etc.

As we all know, God doesn't "do" anything, He SPEAKS it... since he's omnipresent, could He have been the "waters" in Genesis as well?

(Of course, I think much of the Bible is also literal, along with allegorical, inspirational, applicational, etc for the human being...)

 

[Forge3]

I know you're posting in origins ... and I think I'm in line with that (But I still have a fever so bear with me?)...

I have had thinking along the same line as you, but from the other end of the Book...Revelation. Where it talks about God's voice being as many waters... I immediately sensed a distortion in the time-space continuum might cause that... God being multi directional etc omnipresent, etc.

As we all know, God doesn't "do" anything, He SPEAKS it... since he's omnipresent, could He have been the "waters" in Genesis as well?

(Of course, I think much of the Bible is also literal, along with allegorical, inspirational, applicational, etc for the human being...)

He is in and among all He has created.

 

[hiscosmicgoldfish]

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

The earth was a formless deep dark abyss. The text seems to suggest that the waters were what was formed first, and nothing else.

We first read of them in Genesis, before the Earth was even made. Also notice that the "heavens" were created in this same chapter as the "waters" are being organized. Sometimes I think the term "waters" has another meaning, maybe something like strings or the Higgs-boson. Something that all matter has in common. If we glean information from the rest of the bible, we see the elements will be destroyed with fervent heat and dissolve, if this is the case, then there must be something common throughout the heavens that can be effected at once.

That would mean that everything in the universe was created out of water, and water is formed out of energy. I also think that the universe is made up out of invisible ‘poles’, which have helixes rotating around them. These poles are random, and they exist as possibilities. The universe is based around a virtual pole, on the grand scale, but at the other end are countless billions of possibilities. As long as this universe exists, there are possibilities. When the universe is destroyed, then everything goes into chaotic nothingness, an anti-existence, where nothing is possible.

3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

God said that the light was good. Notice however that God did not say that the darkness was good. So what was the darkness? It was separated from the light.

5 God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night.

Perhaps, at the end of the Day, the light is separated from the darkness, and the sons of light will inherit the light, and the sons of darkness will inherit the darkness.

 

[granpa]

original state of existence - Epistemology, logic, ethics, morals, philosophers, consciousness, ego, free will - Page 4 - City-Data Forum

 

[OliverC]

I'm just brainstorming here so forgive me. The waters may be a way to describe one of the four spirits that are the foundation of our being. It could be a type of spiritual teaching or philosophy.


One type of water is pure and uncorrupted, and the other type is lesser and passed around among men. Water satisfies the body, and philosophy of various types satisfies the soul. Without thinking the mind is not conciouss, it needs spiritual waters to live.


The types of waters were seperated by the firmament according to its place. One of the waters were on one side of the firmament, and the other waters were on the otherside of the firmament.


A little deep I guess, but I usually look at the Bible both physically and spiritually. Everything physical seems to also have a spiritual significance for the individual on the lowest level, and the collective universe on a higher level.

This is good!
Water or waters in my understanding represents purity of teaching and spiritual truth.
I think it would be good to go back to the Hebrew or Greek when it comes to the words.

 

[inthec]

I

would only comment on this that earth (land, erets) is called God's footstool, whereas heaven (that in which the stars dwell) is referred to as His throne. Thus, the bible states that heaven is that which is above the earth or everything that is above the earth.

In scripture the world is divided into 3 components—earth sea and heaven.

Exodus 20:11
For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them,.....

You'll see this theme over and over and over. It's also important to note that all are distinct. Earth in scripture always means land. It never refers to a land/sea unit as we think of when we think of planet earth. Thus the ends of the earth always refer to coastlines where the land (earth) ends.

Ancient nomenclature can be stumbling, as we sometimes import our nomenclature into scripture.

I said all that just to say, I don't think it's right to consider all of creation God's footstool. Some of His creation serves as His throne. If I read the bible in a straightforward way, God's throne is the physical cosmos, while his footstool is the physical earth.

There seems to be a "heavens" which refers to celestial bodies, and also a "heavens" which refers to the spiritual, perhaps a different dimension. We can gain insight on Genesis by "reverse reading" so to speak, using info spoken about the end of the world and applying that to the creation aspect.

"Earth" and "heavens" seem to be both dissolved at the same time, and they are both in the "lake of fire".

2Peter3:7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store , reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.


Jude 1:6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.


2Peter3:12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved , and the elements shall melt with fervent heat ?


2Peter3:10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat , the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up .


Isaiah 34:4And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved , and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down , as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.


Revelation 19:20And the beast was taken , and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone

Revelation6:14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together ; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.



I think the term "earth" means all the elements, planets stars, so forth, and the "sea" is the expanse, or "blank canvass" because even in space void of "matter" there is still something there, as light and radio waves can propagate on it.

Satan travels within this and I think there is a spiritual aspect to material things, the "underworkings", this is his seat of power and how he will be toast when all material is dissolved.

However, this is speaking about the future, in the new heavens and new land. That's when we'll have access to it. But it also revealed that this tree is now in the "paradise of God" which seems to point to the 3rd heaven that Paul spoke about. The perhaps it was moved somewhere above the land up in the sky somewhere. Maybe it's millions of light years away, on a special planet

I dont think so because the verses above show that all material things will be destroyed from one end to the other.

I don't see any reference to man being stuck between 4 rivers in Genesis. 4 preflood rivers are mentioned, but those were inside of the Garden as well as outside.

Plus, I don't see anywhere in scripture descriptions of a non-physical heaven. Heaven is metaphysically described in the same way earth is in Genesis 1.

The Garden is east in Eden, not Eden itself, and the river runs into it, but it parts into four after it does. This is the parting of the ways where the flaming sword guards the entrance.

Genesis2:10And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted , and became into four heads

Genesis 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way , to keep the way of the tree of life.

I will say that pyramids are a very fascinating aspect of ancient man's archeological history. They do seem to appear everywhere on the globe, and many speculate that Babel was a pyramid. I think I would agree that many of these passages seem to suggest the writers had a pyramid image in mind.

Thanks for your input, the subject is fascinating.

 

[inthec]

I'm just brainstorming here so forgive me. The waters may be a way to describe one of the four spirits that are the foundation of our being. It could be a type of spiritual teaching or philosophy.


One type of water is pure and uncorrupted, and the other type is lesser and passed around among men. Water satisfies the body, and philosophy of various types satisfies the soul. Without thinking the mind is not conciouss, it needs spiritual waters to live.


The types of waters were seperated by the firmament according to its place. One of the waters were on one side of the firmament, and the other waters were on the otherside of the firmament.


A little deep I guess, but I usually look at the Bible both physically and spiritually. Everything physical seems to also have a spiritual significance for the individual on the lowest level, and the collective universe on a higher level.

I totally agree! These "rivers" do seem to be what keeps this whole thing operating, and they are spirits of God.

 

[inthec]

I know you're posting in origins ... and I think I'm in line with that (But I still have a fever so bear with me?)...

I have had thinking along the same line as you, but from the other end of the Book...Revelation. Where it talks about God's voice being as many waters... I immediately sensed a distortion in the time-space continuum might cause that... God being multi directional etc omnipresent, etc.

As we all know, God doesn't "do" anything, He SPEAKS it... since he's omnipresent, could He have been the "waters" in Genesis as well?

(Of course, I think much of the Bible is also literal, along with allegorical, inspirational, applicational, etc for the human being...)

Yes, I think they are alluding to the same force, or spirit.