What are the root causes of abortion?

[gratis]

Social Conditioning

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Roll on the male implanatble contraceptive.

Of course, if Implanon was freely available to women from 16 on, we'd see abortion rates plummet too...

 

[heatherq17]

Contraception fails.

 

[gratis]

Roll on the male implanatble contraceptive.

Of course, if Implanon was freely available to women from 16 on, we'd see abortion rates plummet too...

You are right. However, we would also see a whole lot of hormonal health issues. But that is another subject.

 

[rppearso]

Interesting advice, interesting advice that's totally irrelevant if you choose to have children in the future... Or if you're under the age of 35, since most doctors I know won't do permenant sterilzation on people that young.

I dident think doctors were bias against age. Once you are 18 you are legally an adult with the ability to make adult desicions. I dont personally know that many doctors myself, maybe you work at a hospital and thats how you know all these doctors, but I know there are doctors that will do it because I know someone that had it done at 27 yrs old.

 

[Monica02]

I've never understood what the point of that sort of logic is... "You'll want one in the future, might as well have one now." That sort of brilliant logic can be applied to other things too, like:

"I know you're 12, but you'll have sex eventually so you might as well have it now."

"I know you're not 21, but you'll drink eventually so you might as well do it now."

"I know you're alive, but you will one day be dead so you might as well kill yourself."

Wanting or inevitably doing something in the future doesn't mean that it's in the best interest of anybody to do it now.

I simply pointed out to this couple, who was very vocal about wanting children in the future, that there was no guarantee that they would conceive a child in the future and this seemed to strike a chord with them.
They apparently never even considered that they may not conceive again. It is very true that some couples only conceive once and so I feel it is good to point this out to abortion bound people. Obviously, since this couple changed their minds, it was in their best interest to not kill thier unborn child.

I always remember this couple when I am counselling abortion bound people at the abortion clinic. The possibility of not conceiving in the future is an important discussion point that could be valuable in helping women to change their minds about killing their unborn children.

 

[kopilo]

Unwanted and unneeded pregnancy first and foremost.

 

[gratis]

1. You're not counselling anybody. You're an untrained layman who sits on a street telling people you don't know to not get a procedure that doesn't affect you at all that you don't want them to get the procedure. A counselour goes through schooling, training, and has the knowledge to properly help people to ensure they're best interests and needs are being met... You do not.

2. I'm well aware of the various guilt tactics used by people who are anti-abortion to talk women out of getting abortions. I've even been the subject of a woman on the sidewalk trying to talk me out of an abortion... Not only was she completely wrong about my getting an abortion (I was going to Planned Parenthood for an IUD and my annual), but the counseling she provided was guilt based, not entirely truthful, and not considering of any personal situation I was in (which was made more apparent when she tried to stop me from getting an abortion I wasn't getting).

3. The point of sitting on the sidewalk and guilting women to not abort is purely self-serving. The goal isn't helping the woman, the goal is to make yourself feel better. Listen to what you said... YOU talk about how YOU "saved" a baby and YOU were key in preventing the abortion and YOU know the woman is better off because of what YOU did. That's bragging, that's pride, that's not "a family was helped today."

I don't condone for one minute the actions of these people that flock around abortion clinics and try to guilt young ladies out of having abortions. Guilt doesn't help anyone in any situation.

However regarding abortions there are a lot of risk factors that are not told to the client. One of them of course is damage to the reproductive system. Thankfully that risk isn't as big now that the procedure has been 'cleaned' up.

But there are emotional risks and later health concerns that could arise because of the abortion. These are virtually unsaid to the client which I do not agree with. If a young lady is willing to have an abortion she should at the very least be told the whole truth.

Sorry, it's a bit off topic here as we are only supposed to be discussing what the root causes are - and social conditioning is high on the list. We have all been led to believe through social conditioning that it is a harmless procedure. And that simply isn't true.

 

[Robinsegg]

I agree with Gratis, here. While some of the tactics used by the so-called "sidewalk abortion counsellors" are reprehensible, there are others who are simply trying to make sure these women get all the information.

Why shouldn't the woman know exactly what's gonna be done to her, what the fetus will experience, the stage of development the fetus is at, what the possible side-effects are, and even see an ultrasound of the fetus before making her descision? I'm not pro-any-choice, but if we're gonna have choice, I'd be in favor of informed choice. What other procedure does not require the doctor to inform the patient of such things, including seeing the xrays, etc.?

Rachel

 

[gratis]

I agree with Gratis, here. While some of the tactics used by the so-called "sidewalk abortion counsellors" are reprehensible, there are others who are simply trying to make sure these women get all the information.

Why shouldn't the woman know exactly what's gonna be done to her, what the fetus will experience, the stage of development the fetus is at, what the possible side-effects are, and even see an ultrasound of the fetus before making her descision? I'm not pro-any-choice, but if we're gonna have choice, I'd be in favor of informed choice. What other procedure does not require the doctor to inform the patient of such things, including seeing the xrays, etc.?

Rachel

EXACTLY!

 

[Robinsegg]

Because a lot of those tactics are done specifically to induce guilt or shame to prevent an abortion. Sharing side effects and what is done during the procedure, fine...

We're in agreement on that, then.

But what the fetus will experience? Not only is that completely subjective, but it's not needed. We don't share what experience other body parts will have when operated on. Especially since all medical and scientific evidence shows that a fetus feels nothing and has no level of consciousness until a point far beyond when most abortions occur, to say what it could feel is as random and unscientific as describing the experience of an appendix during an appendectomy.

I was referring, in that instance, of a later-term abortion, which do occur. I wasn't trying to say information should be proffered where none exists, but rather that any pertinent information (as this would be in later abortions) should be given before a descision is made.

You made no reference to the sonogram. I'm curious, are you in favor of having a sonogram and showing it to the woman or not?

Rachel

 

[Robinsegg]

Late term abortions are usually done when a wanted pregnancy has a serious complication, needing an abortion. I have a hard time supporting that sort of stuff, since I'm sure the mother is acutely aware of how hard the procedure will be, and it's done for medical reasons.

I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I've known a couple three women who got late term abortions... One after a car accident, one after they found that the baby had severe defects and wouldn't make it to term, and the third I think was a similar situation to the latter... Knowing how devestated and torn up those women were(only one of whom intended on getting pregnant, the other two were surprises... Unplanned but wanted), I don't see how that would have helped them... It would only made a traumatic situation that much more hellish.



I'm on the fence there. That's one of those things that they'll do a sonogram before an abortion anyway, so they could show it, but I don't think most people know what they're looking at. I don't see how that helps or hurts one way or the other, though I do think that there is a major potential there to guilt women into not getting an abortion.

I don't know... For any other procedure, they don't show you the organ being worked on so you can get a good look at it (unless you want to see of course), so I tend to think the reason people want to require it is more guilt than informational. But since the layman, or laywoman in this case, would have a hard time seeing anything at all... I don't know how even successful it is in doing that.

I was talking about an abortion done after the first trimester (when the fetus could potentially feel something), done for whatever reason (sometimes because the pregnancy was not apparent before that). I wasn't talking about the d&x procedure or anything like that (which I suppose is probably done more for medical than convenience issues). Sorry for the confusion.

The sonogram is a useful tool at around 12-20 weeks gestation, as the fetus can be seen. Guilt? Well, I suppose one could use it for guilt. But the potential for guilt to be used isn't a useful argument against informing the patient. And I was under the impression that it was often the case that doctors would show whatever xrays they might have in order to explain the procedure being done. I've never had to ask to see them, but maybe that's just me.

Rachel

 

[BigToe]

I think a lack of education and availability of options for those who have decided to be sexually active results in more unwanted pregnancies than some would want to think. There are of course instances where contraception fails or rapes. And then people who just think they are invincible and didn't do the smart thing. I don't think there is one root cause of abortion though.

 

[rppearso]

It's not age bias, it's prevention of liability issues on the part of the doctor. There are plenty of people at the ages of 18-30 who don't want to have kids, who find in 5 years they've changed their minds. Because it's not easily reversed, most doctors won't perform it. I've known people my age to get it, but only because pregnancy presents significant health concerns... IE, diabetics or men who carry Tay-Sacks... Where pregnancy would cause death or disability.

And yes, FYI, I did work in a hospital, my husband does work in a hospital, and because I have "female health concerns," I had to go through the long and obnoxious process of trying to get a permanent tubal...

I thought your husband was a pilot?

 

[Monica02]

Of course there are no promises of anything in life, and that just because you can get it once and possibly never again doesn't mean that getting it now is always in the best interest of anybody.

This couple seemed to change their mind when the idea of not conceiving again was presented to them. They left smiling and happy so not killing their unborn child was indeed in their best interest.

Like I said, if I got pregnant tomorrow, even though I want kids and I'm married, I'd get an abortion. Wanting babies later doesn't mean they're in my best interest now. My sister, who got an abortion because she got pregnant during a date rape, who really worried for awhile that she'd not get pregnant, still was glad she got her abortion.

I wonder how your dead niece or nephew feels? Was killing him or her in his or her best interest?

You can't know another person's mind better than they themselves, and you can't know what's best for them based on a 5 minute interaction you have with them.

True - but they made the decision to not kill their unborn child - I simply discussed the issue with them.

How are they doing now? Do you even know? Were the issues that led them to choose to abort resolved, or did you simply guilt them into remaining pregnant when they didn't want to be?

If I could "guilt" people into deciding to not kill their unborn children with the success you seem to think I have -- I would. I really do not have that much influence over people, but I wish I did. You seem to forget that these people made the decision for themselves - I really could not stop them from doing anything. They changed their own minds. At the end of our discussion, they decided to remain pregnant. They did not have to stop and talk to us, they did not have to remain in discussion for over half an hour. They pulled up to us, got out of their car and chose to talk to us. At any moment they could have simply entered the abortion mill.

1. You're not counselling anybody. You're an untrained layman who sits on a street telling people you don't know to not get a procedure that doesn't affect you at all that you don't want them to get the procedure. A counselour goes through schooling, training, and has the knowledge to properly help people to ensure they're best interests and needs are being met... You do not.

I have had training and I have alot of experience. I do indeed properly help people - I pray for all involved in the abortion facility, I talk to people who chose to stop about their decision and I offer the assistance of crisis pregnancy centers and any assistance I can give.
Many women have been very grateful that we were there to stop them from going through with an abortion.
Just this last Saturday a lady changed her mind and was thrilled that we were there.

2. I'm well aware of the various guilt tactics used by people who are anti-abortion to talk women out of getting abortions. I've even been the subject of a woman on the sidewalk trying to talk me out of an abortion... Not only was she completely wrong about my getting an abortion (I was going to Planned Parenthood for an IUD and my annual), but the counseling she provided was guilt based, not entirely truthful, and not considering of any personal situation I was in (which was made more apparent when she tried to stop me from getting an abortion I wasn't getting).

I always ask right away if the girl/woman is going in for an abortion and 99% of the time they are. We treat all people entering as abortion bound because you basically out nothing if the person is not (like I said - 99% are abortion bound). No harm done. I always try to ask why she is seeking an abortion - this helps me to steer
the discussion in a direction that will most likely help her to change her mind.

3. The point of sitting on the sidewalk and guilting women to not abort is purely self-serving. The goal isn't helping the woman, the goal is to make yourself feel better. Listen to what you said... YOU talk about how YOU "saved" a baby and YOU were key in preventing the abortion and YOU know the woman is better off because of what YOU did. That's bragging, that's pride, that's not "a family was helped today."

What I have been discussing is how the couple/woman changes her own mind. The woman is better off because of a decision she made - after dialouge with us- a dialouge she chose to enter into.

People who feel they would be better off killing their own unborn children do not stop to talk to us. We provide prayers for all and information for anyone who wants it. There are people who are grateful we are
there and for these people we remain diligent in our efforts. If others have issues with our presence then they need to just accept it and deal with it.

 

[loveiseverywhere]

I almost had two abortions, one in 1994 and one in 2004 but because certain individuals asked me not to, I did the unselfish thing, even though I could not even begin to afford it and the results are:

And I wouldn't give them up for anything in the world. I have sacrificed a lot for them and I am so glad God gave them to me. My son and daughter have made me realize what's really important in life and have helped me grow into someone I never would have believed I would ever be. They actually saved my life.

 

[gratis]

I almost had two abortions, one in 1994 and one in 2004 but because certain individuals asked me not to, I did the unselfish thing, even though I could not even begin to afford it and the results are:

And I wouldn't give them up for anything in the world. I have sacrificed a lot for them and I am so glad God gave them to me. My son and daughter have made me realize what's really important in life and have helped me grow into someone I never would have believed I would ever be. They actually saved my life.

That is a beautiful testimony!

 

[Robinsegg]

Jerusha Girl,
My sympathies to your sister for her traumatic experience. I'd like to say something about this particular type of issue, but don't want to minimize your sister's hardship in any way.

You see, from our side, most of us (pro-lifers) really do sympathize with the plight of rape victims. However, when we begin trying to show sympathy and recourse for these women, we get fingers pointed at us, and voices saying "see, you don't really care about the fetus, you care about punishing the mother". This is what we often get for making exceptions for/showing sympathy towards victims of this crime.

Yes, we care very much about the life of the fetus. But we also have some understanding of the horrible trauma caused by this particular violent crime. Thus, for these cases, we try to make it as easy as possible for these crime victims to move on with their lives. As for wanting to punish the mother for having extra-marital sex . . . I'm sure there are those who feel exactly that way. But there are many of us who are simply trying to protect what we believe to be children with souls who happen to be completely dependent on their mothers.

Rachel

 

[Monica02]

I was going to answer your whole post, but after reading some of the things you said, I couldn't trust myself to answer you without getting unduely nasty. After reading some of your other posts, some of which are submitted to FSTDT.com, I really don't respect what you do or say enough to give the time it takes to answer you.

I will answer your one point, though:



I don't have a dead niece or nephew. All of my sister's children are still alive.

If you're talking about the fetus she aborted, it didn't, and does not, feel anything. It has no capasity to do so.

Was it in the best interest of everybody involved for my sister to get an abortion after her RAPE? Hmmm, let's see... She was suicidal when she found out she was pregnant, and was going to kill herself if she didn't get an abortion. The rapist, who would have had to remain in her life if she carried to term, has been in and out of jail since high school, and is now currently in jail for stabbing his girlfriend, who's the mother of one of his 3 kids.

My sister graduated high school in the top 5 of her class, went to Texas A&M, graduated at the top of her class with a criminal justice degree, got married to a man who's now the assistant chief of police of a Dallas suburb, and they have 2 kids together. She's now your typical suburban housewife, stay-at-home mom, who's active in church functions, her local schools, and she was going to get into legal aid work but the recent diagnosis of her daughter with a learning disability has prevented that.

Offhand, I'm going to say an overwhelming yes, the abortion was in everybody's best interest.

I think this goes, overwhelmingly, to show that your 5 minute character analysis of what's best for people is disgustingly innacurate.

Your sister still killed her unborn baby. As horrible as the situation of the baby's conception was, he or she was a human being that had every right to his or her life. You seem to think that your sister has a right to live, that somehow her other children have a right to their life and even the rapist's life is protected by law. Why then is the innocent little unborn baby's life not afforded protection?

Would your sister not been able to do the college/marriage ect. if she had not decided to kill her unborn child? She could have got counselling for
her suicidal thoughts, had her child, given him or her up for adoption and continued with her life.

 

[Monica02]

I almost had two abortions, one in 1994 and one in 2004 but because certain individuals asked me not to, I did the unselfish thing, even though I could not even begin to afford it and the results are:

And I wouldn't give them up for anything in the world. I have sacrificed a lot for them and I am so glad God gave them to me. My son and daughter have made me realize what's really important in life and have helped me grow into someone I never would have believed I would ever be. They actually saved my life.

You and your children are beautiful! Your son looks just like you.