What are the requirenments to go to heaven

[doubtingmerle]

why don't you meet Him for yourself, and i guarantee all your questions will be answered in the blink of an eye.

Ok, since all your questions are answered in a blink of an eye, here is my question: What will be the closing Dow average on Monday? Can you ask and let me know the answer, please?

Thanks!

Oh, and by the way, I did "meet Him" years ago.

But I still have questions.

 

[doubtingmerle]

If one trusts Jesus (has faith in him) then he does transform you, so I can't answer the question - "what if he doesn't". It's like being asked "ok, if you step off the cliff but don't fall, what then?"

And the truster is transformed, even if he doesn't want to be changed? So there is absolutely nothing you can do to resist this transformation?

If there is absolutely nothing you can do to resist this change, then you no long have freewill on that question, do you?

Use of the word required and heaven, both of which I've already mentioned

Give me a break!

With enough space I could have written, "What are the necessary conditions that must normally be met here on earth in order to enter into a state of everlasting bliss commonly referred to by some Christians as Heaven?" I think you know what the question means as written (and I can't go back and edit it now). So can you please quit quibbleling about the wording of the question?

Issues with the word 'hell'. There is some truth, but the thing is written completely backwards.

Some say one must believe he is a hell-deserving sinner to obtain salvation. Some do not think one needs to believe this. I am simply asking the question.

I am not declaring that you have to answer yes to the question. I am asking if you agree. And if you don't agree, just say no. There is no need to complain because you can't answer yes to question #1, whereas some people do answer yes. It is still a legitimate question.

 

[ebia]

And the truster is transformed, even if he doesn't want to be changed? So there is absolutely nothing you can do to resist this transformation?

To resist wouldn't be to trust, would it?

With enough space I could have written, "What are the necessary conditions that must normally be met here on earth in order to enter into a state of everlasting bliss commonly referred to by some Christians as Heaven?" I think you know what the question means as written (and I can't go back and edit it now). So can you please quit quibbleling about the wording of the question?

No. Or rather yes, but I'm not going to answer it because I feel to do so would be too misleading as it is worded.

Some say one must believe he is a hell-deserving sinner to obtain salvation. Some do not think one needs to believe this. I am simply asking the question.

I am not declaring that you have to answer yes to the question. I am asking if you agree. And if you don't agree, just say no. There is no need to complain because you can't answer yes to question #1, whereas some people do answer yes. It is still a legitimate question.

I'm trying to explain why I wasn't prepared to tick any of them - even though most of them are not completely disconnected from the truth. With sufficient rewording of both the overall question and the options most of them could be ticked, but to do so now would imply something very different.

 

[doubtingmerle]

To resist wouldn't be to trust, would it?

That depends on what you mean by trust.

Suppose that heaven is based solely on faith in Jesus, and has nothing to do with whether or not one resists future transformation. You may disagree with them that such a person has met the condition required for future heaven--or eternal bliss--but please try to understand some people do disagree with this. And they believe that a person can have faith in Jesus to take them to heaven while resiting transformation here on earth. You don't think that faith is sufficient, do you?

I really am trying to understand exactly what you think a person needs to do. The best I can tell you have at least two conditions for eternal bliss, that one must trust God and that one must also choose not to resist transformation here on earth.

 

[ebia]

That depends on what you mean by trust.

Okay, maybe my response tells you a little bit more about what I mean by trust.

Suppose that heaven is based solely on faith in Jesus, and has nothing to do with whether or not one resists future transformation. You may disagree with them that such a person has met the condition required for future heaven--or eternal bliss--but please try to understand some people do disagree with this. And they believe that a person can have faith in Jesus to take them to heaven while resiting transformation here on earth. You don't think that faith is sufficient, do you?

I would have to ask what they meant by 'faith'. It sounds to me like what they are talking about is belief, not faith.

I really am trying to understand exactly what you think a person needs to do. The best I can tell you have at least two conditions for eternal bliss, that one must trust God and that one must also choose not to resist transformation here on earth.

They are one and the same thing.

 

[doubtingmerle]

They are one and the same thing.

Your trust and the act of choosing not to resist transformation may be one and the same thing for you, but please understand that other people refer to a different trust that is different from what you describe as trust, and they also refer to their trust as faith in Christ. OK? So why do your words imply that you absolutely refuse to believe that their might be other people in this world who are trusting God for something different than what your trust for? Why must trust be, by definition, only the trust that you have? Don't you understand that some people see things differently from you?

You speak of allowing God to transform you as a necessary condition for eternal bliss. But what if somebody stops allowing this transformation? People with freewill do change their minds, don't they?

Your entrance into eternal bliss is based on works, isn't it? To obtain your bliss one must commit himself to doing the transformed things for the rest of his life, and that transformation must last for a lifetime. Yes you may trust God to make the transformation, but your words say it requires a lifetime of works from the point of trust onward.

 

[ebia]

Your trust and the act of choosing not to resist transformation may be one and the same thing for you, but please understand that other people refer to a different trust that is different from what you describe as trust, and they also refer to their trust as faith in Christ. OK? So why do your words imply that you absolutely refuse to believe that their might be other people in this world who are trusting God for something different than what your trust for? Why must trust be, by definition, only the trust that you have? Don't you understand that some people see things differently from you?

Which is why I said: "I would have to ask what they meant by 'faith' (or trust). It sounds to me like what they are talking about is belief, not faith."

So far as I can see trusting Jesus would include (by necessary implication) trusting him to transform them. For me to say anything about someone claiming to trust him but not to trust him to transform them I would need to engage in a conversation with that person to understand what they meant by that, and specifically what if anything they meant by trust if it doesn't including trusting Jesus to do what he says he will do to/in/for those who trust him. Because, so far as I can see, saying "I trust Jesus, but not to transform me" is self-contradictory.

You speak of allowing God to transform you as a necessary condition for eternal bliss.

Not "necessary for" but becoming part of, the Kingdom of God. Unless things (including us) are put right they aren't Kingdom of God stuff. It makes no more sense to suggest someone can be part of the Kingdom of God without being transformed than to suggest someone can be in England without travelling there.

But what if somebody stops allowing this transformation? People with freewill do change their minds, don't they?

Then they no longer have faith, and unless they change their mind again they are choosing not to be part of the Kingdom of God by definition. Same as if one is driving across Europe to get to London - if they turn around somewhere in France they can't then complain that they don't get to Dover.

Your entrance into eternal bliss is based on works, isn't it?

Depends what one means by that. Works aren't the means of getting there, but they are part of the journey.

To obtain your bliss one must commit himself to doing the transformed things for the rest of his life, and that transformation must last for a lifetime. Yes you may trust God to make the transformation, but your words say it requires a lifetime of works from the point of trust onward.

If you want to play word-games you can turn anything around. The Kingdom of God is about transforming (all) Creation to be free of evil, death and suffering. Including us. That transformation comes from God. The faith that allows that comes from God. If choosing not to reject that is a "work" in your view so be it, but you've reduced the work to near meaninglessness - you can make simply existing to be transformed a "work" if you want, but the conversation becomes pretty ridiculous at that point.

Grace brings about Faith, allows transformation, results in "work" (horribly inappropriate word). And that process is the incoming of the Kingdom of God that we are and will be part of. And that's why I keep objecting to your vision of heaven - these are not arbitrary requirements for some external thing, but the very coming about of the thing itself.

 

[ephraimanesti]

Ok, since all your questions are answered in a blink of an eye, here is my question: What will be the closing Dow average on Monday? Can you ask and let me know the answer, please?

Thanks!

Oh, and by the way, I did "meet Him" years ago.

MY FRIEND--Forgive my doubts, but those who REALLY meet God face to face would never ever even think of turning their gaze away again.

But I still have questions.

Well, if the questions you are desperately seeking to have answered are similar to the one you superciliously pose above, i can see your problem.

A BOND-SLAVE/FRIEND/BROTHER OR OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim

 

[doubtingmerle]

Well, if the questions you are desperately seeking to have answered are similar to the one you superciliously pose above, i can see your problem.

Uh, what you said is that, "all your questions will be answered in the blink of an eye."

Okay, so not all of my questions will be answered, as you stated? Which questions will be answered?

How about the question about the requirments for heaven, as asked in this thread. Is that also one that doesn't get answered aslo? If it does get answered, how does it get answered?

 

[doubtingmerle]

Then they no longer have faith, and unless they change their mind again they are choosing not to be part of the Kingdom of God by definition.

Depending of course on the definition of the Kingdom of God.

Okay, so you appear to be saying that, if one is not continously submitting to transformation, then he is not going to enjoy the condition that most Christians refer to as heaven. Your faith involves continuously doing what God wants you to do or you are out.

Are you sure you are being transformed enough?

If you want to play word-games you can turn anything around. The Kingdom of God is about transforming (all) Creation to be free of evil, death and suffering.

No, this has nothing to do with word games. It has to do with understanding. I am trying to understand what conditions a person needs to meet, in your view, to enjoy the state known by others as heaven.
Must a person quit all murder to enjoy this state?
Must a person quit all rape to enjoy this state?
Must a person quit all smoking to enjoy this state?
Must a person quit all gossip to enjoy this state?
Must a person quit all bitterness to enjoy this state?
Must a person quit all coveting to enjoy this state?

What must a person do to reach this state?

 

[ephraimanesti]

Depending of course on the definition of the Kingdom of God.

Okay, so you appear to be saying that, if one is not continously submitting to transformation, then he is not going to enjoy the condition that most Christians refer to as heaven. Your faith involves continuously doing what God wants you to do or you are out.

This is an accurate statement of Christian Truth.

Are you sure you are being transformed enough?

Yes. God knows what He is doing and has the Power to perform that which He purposes.

No, this has nothing to do with word games. It has to do with understanding. I am trying to understand what conditions a person needs to meet, in your view, to enjoy the state known by others as heaven.
Must a person quit all murder to enjoy this state?

YES.

Must a person quit all rape to enjoy this state?

YES.

Must a person quit all smoking to enjoy this state?

If told to do so--YES.

Must a person quit all gossip to enjoy this state?

YES.

Must a person quit all bitterness to enjoy this state?

YES.

Must a person quit all coveting to enjoy this state?

YES.

What must a person do to reach this state?

One must surrender COMPLETELY to God's sanctifying work--through the Power of the Holy Spirit--in their lives by carrying their Cross and following in our Lord's footsteps.

This basically entails accepting that one has been Crucified with Christ, buried with Christ, and Resurrected--as a New Creation--with Christ.

A BOND-SLAVE/FRIEND/BROTHER OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim

 

[doubtingmerle]

Okay, your faith involves doing whatever God asks, no matter how extensive, with the hope that this results in heaven.

Yes. God knows what He is doing and has the Power to perform that which He purposes.

(This was in response to the question, "Are you sure you are being transformed enough?"

And we can all answer that way? When somebody asks us if we are sure we are being transformed enough to obtain the state of eternal heaven, we can all answer, "Yes. God knows what He is doing and has the Power to perform that which He purposes"? So we all make it? If we are not all making it, how can you be certain you are being transformed enough, while others are not?

 

[doubtingmerle]

Depends what one means by that. Works aren't the means of getting there, but they are part of the journey.

This was in response to my question, "Your entrance into eternal bliss is based on works, isn't it?

I didn't ask if works were the means. I asked if, in your opinion, one's entrance into eternal bliss is based on works. And your opinion appears to be that one must be willing to do whatever God asks, and whenever God asks a person to do good works, then one must do those good works to maintain his future destination of heavenly bliss. So entrance into that heavenly state, according to your words, appears to require that one do the good works that God asks him to do.

That is in opposition to the view of some that trust in Christ alone, regardless of whether it results in the proper works--and you need not tell us that only your definition of trust is valid and their definition is not valid--is sufficient to take one to heaven.

 

[ebia]

Depending of course on the definition of the Kingdom of God.

Absolutely, which is why there is a big problem with the popular view of escaping this world into a disembodied heaven of eternal vagueness.

Okay, so you appear to be saying that, if one is not continously submitting to transformation, then he is not going to enjoy the condition that most Christians refer to as heaven. Your faith involves continuously doing what God wants you to do or you are out.

I refer you back to my metaphor of a journey - (which is, after all, the oldest metaphor for the Chrisitan life) if you don't keep travelling towards your destination you won't get there. "The Way" is the older, and in many ways better, label for Christianity - and it's a shame it went out of fashion.

Of course, in any journey there are diversions and setbacks.

No, this has nothing to do with word games. It has to do with understanding. I am trying to understand what conditions a person needs to meet, in your view, to enjoy the state known by others as heaven.
Must a person quit all murder to enjoy this state?
Must a person quit all rape to enjoy this state?
Must a person quit all gossip to enjoy this state?
Must a person quit all bitterness to enjoy this state?
Must a person quit all coveting to enjoy this state?

Ultimately yes - because all of those are absolutely incompatible with the Kingdom of God. Of course we aren't going to achieve perfection in the limited time we have, but we aren't choosing to be taken in the right direction then we aren't choosing to be taken there at all.

What must a person do to reach this state?

Allow God to make us compatible with it and fit to lead it.

 

[ephraimanesti]

Okay, your faith involves doing whatever God asks, no matter how extensive, with the hope that this results in heaven.

MY FRIEND--Actually Christians serve God--"doing whatever God asks, no matter how extensive"--out of Love for Who He is and what He has done for us, not in order to bribe Him to give us goodies.

A Loving relationship with God is the definition of "Heaven"--it begins here and now and lasts for all eternity.

(This was in response to the question, "Are you sure you are being transformed enough?"

And we can all answer that way? When somebody asks us if we are sure we are being transformed enough to obtain the state of eternal heaven, we can all answer, "Yes. God knows what He is doing and has the Power to perform that which He purposes"? So we all make it? If we are not all making it, how can you be certain you are being transformed enough, while others are not?

No "we can not ALL answer that way". You chose to overlook a very important proviso which i pointed out previously, to wit:

Originally Posted by ephraimanesti: "One must surrender COMPLETELY to God's sanctifying work--through the Power of the Holy Spirit--in their lives by carrying their Cross and following in our Lord's footsteps."

So to answer your question: Yes, this transformation is AVAILABLE to all, but it is not an automatic given, and the majority miss out due to an unwillingness to surrender COMPLETELY to the Holy Spirit's workings within them. The ego fights for its life right up until the end. Unfortunately, in most people, it wins the battle, making God's transforming Power unavailable in effecting the changes need to transform a sinful person into an adopted child of God. Freewill can be a blessing or a curse, depending on how you use it.

A BOND-SLAVE/FRIEND/BROTHER OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim