What are the requirements for a person to get to heaven?

[GrayAngel]

The trouble with predestinationism is that love and salvation have no distinctive meaning without free will. Also, strict predestination even limits God's freedom. The future is an open possibility.

This is not a debate thread. Please address only the OP, as the rules dictate.

 

[steve_bakr]

This is not a debate thread. Please address only the OP, as the rules dictate.

Sorry, I'm not familiar with this format.

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

Are you serious?

Both Christians and non-Christians can love.

"Having love" is different than "being able to love". I'm not sure what "having love" means in a non-Christian context. Obviously everyone is able to love.

But it still leaves the question of what love actually is. And I asked you and you never responded because you thought I was making the ridiculous claim that non-Christians can't love. You cherry picked my post pretty good there.

"I agree with Steve's answer: "Actually, the full list is to love God with all your strength and your neighbor as yourself."

And you said, "Got it. All we need is love." But then, Steve's answer requires us to know what love is. So what is love to you doubtingmerle?

You also then said, "And if I have love ... "

In a non-Christian context, I have no idea what "having" love means. I'm not even sure what that means in a Christian context unless you use the metaphorical language and say that having love is synonymous with having Christ dwell in you."

The bold is the part you cherry-picked out of context.

 

[GrayAngel]

I am still trying to understand what you think one has to do to go to heaven. In your illustration, you say that saving faith is like jumping with a parachute. What exactly does that mean? Does jumping mean asking Jesus into his heart? Does it mean accepting Jesus as the Lord of her life? Does it mean trying to do good works? Does it mean deciding to love God? Does it mean baptism? (If you "jump" by getting baptized, should we call it diving?) Does Jump mean repent? Must one confess that he is a sinner? Etc., etc., etc.

So many things have been suggested here. Which of those, if any, are included in your jumping plan of salvation.

So that is what it comes down to--we are saved by "jumping" but nobody seems to know exactly what they mean by "jumping out of the plane".

You're asking the wrong question now. It's not about what we do. Nothing we do can earn salvation. Jumping from a plane doesn't give you faith in your parachute, your faith causes you to to jump.

Some people will tell you that you have to do something to get saved, but they're wrong. If you get baptized, but you don't have faith, you're just getting wet. Faith should lead you to want to be baptized, but it's the faith that matters, not the act that follows.

Basically, it's the heart that matters. Think about the man on the cross beside Jesus, the one who asked Jesus to remember him when He would enter His kingdom. Jesus promised the man that they would be together in Paradise. The man was hanging from a cross, he could not do anything. He couldn't be baptized, he couldn't do good works. But Jesus knew that the man had faith, and that was enough.

 

[doubtingmerle]

You're asking the wrong question now. It's not about what we do. Nothing we do can earn salvation. Jumping from a plane doesn't give you faith in your parachute, your faith causes you to to jump.

I asked you before if by faith you meant "confidence". Your answer was not clear. You seemed to be saying that faith meant spiritually "jumping". But now you make it clear that you don't mean spiritually jumping, but are back to sounding like you mean having confidence or trust in God.

Once more: When you refer to "faith", are you or are you not referring to confidence and trust in God? Please answer.

I also trust in God in the sense that I am confident that he will not allow me (or any other person) to suffer eternal torment of hell. Since I have this trust in God, am I therefore saved from hell? Is that all that is needed? Is that saving faith? If I need anything else, please tell me what else is needed.

 

[CaseyB]

I don't think you are honestly looking for an answer. I think you are trying to poke holes in Christianity. The problem with your question is that not everyone believes the same thing, even within Christianity, so you will not get a final answer. If your mission was to prove that there is no consensus between Christians, I don't think anyone here would disagree with you, so who are you trying to prove it to?

 

[doubtingmerle]

"Having love" is different than "being able to love". I'm not sure what "having love" means in a non-Christian context. Obviously everyone is able to love.

But it still leaves the question of what love actually is. And I asked you and you never responded because you thought I was making the ridiculous claim that non-Christians can't love. You cherry picked my post pretty good there.

"I agree with Steve's answer: "Actually, the full list is to love God with all your strength and your neighbor as yourself."

And you said, "Got it. All we need is love." But then, Steve's answer requires us to know what love is. So what is love to you doubtingmerle?

You also then said, "And if I have love ... "

In a non-Christian context, I have no idea what "having" love means. I'm not even sure what that means in a Christian context unless you use the metaphorical language and say that having love is synonymous with having Christ dwell in you."

The bold is the part you cherry-picked out of context.

What's the matter? Did you wake up with your drawers in a knot?

Please, please, please calm yourself down.

Please.

There was no cherry picking. I wrote two messages to you. In one I told you that I thought both Christians and non-Christians could love, and in the other I told you what I thought love means. I think that answers your questions.

And no, I do not mean "having Christ" when I use the expression, "having love". "Having love" means having love in your heart and in your life for others.

 

[doubtingmerle]

The problem with your question is that not everyone believes the same thing, even within Christianity, so you will not get a final answer. If your mission was to prove that there is no consensus between Christians, I don't think anyone here would disagree with you, so who are you trying to prove it to?

Got it. Christians differ widely on how to get to heaven.

So what should the seeker do who wants to know how to get to heaven and is reading this thread? Are you saying that he should just pick one of the responses here and hope it is the right answer?

 

[CaseyB]

Got it. Christians differ widely on how to get to heaven.

So what should the seeker do who wants to know how to get to heaven and is reading this thread? Are you saying that he should just pick one of the responses here and hope it is the right answer?

Do you want my answer?

Wouldn't it make more sense to decide what you believe and what makes sense to you and then follow that instead of asking for specific people's answers to questions that have extremely variable answers?

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

What's the matter? Did you wake up with your drawers in a knot?

Please, please, please calm yourself down.

Please.

Sometimes in forums its hard to tell tone. I try to use emoticons to denote that I'm never upset on this forum because forums aren't worth getting upset over. I used the emoticon to make light of the fact that you only quoted one piece of my post...and it was the piece that happened to be able to be construed in a poor light

I'm not in the least bit upset...it would be pretty pathetic if I got upset over this

There was no cherry picking. I wrote two messages to you. In one I told you that I thought both Christians and non-Christians could love, and in the other I told you what I thought love means. I think that answers your questions.

Ah my mistake. Your two responses got separated by another post so I never saw the second one.

Your definition of love is: "caring deeply for the needs and feeling of others and taking actions that are for the good of others."

Still don't see how you can "have love" using this definition. Your definition of love relies purely on outward actions.

And no, I do not mean "having Christ" when I use the expression, "having love". "Having love" means having love in your heart and in your life for others.

Still not sure what "having love in your heart" means coming from an atheist. Any clarification is appreciated

 

[doubtingmerle]

Do you want my answer?

Wouldn't it make more sense to decide what you believe and what makes sense to you and then follow that instead of asking for specific people's answers to questions that have extremely variable answers?

Interesting. So I can decide what to believe about salvation and not ask what you folks think? I must say, I was not expecting that response.

 

[doubtingmerle]

Your definition of love is: "caring deeply for the needs and feeling of others and taking actions that are for the good of others."

Still don't see how you can "have love" using this definition. Your definition of love relies purely on outward actions.

Love is not just a set of actions, but is also an inward state that cares deeply for others. If that inward state of compassion for others exists in your heart, then you can be said to "have love" in your heart. But don't let the term "have love" throw you. "Have love" basically means loving.

 

[Frenchfrye]

Interesting. So I can decide what to believe about salvation and not ask what you folks think? I must say, I was not expecting that response.

well the bible is the only source that we should use to find our beliefs

 

[GrayAngel]

I asked you before if by faith you meant "confidence". Your answer was not clear. You seemed to be saying that faith meant spiritually "jumping". But now you make it clear that you don't mean spiritually jumping, but are back to sounding like you mean having confidence or trust in God.

Once more: When you refer to "faith", are you or are you not referring to confidence and trust in God? Please answer.

I also trust in God in the sense that I am confident that he will not allow me (or any other person) to suffer eternal torment of hell. Since I have this trust in God, am I therefore saved from hell? Is that all that is needed? Is that saving faith? If I need anything else, please tell me what else is needed.

No, I said that faith is the driving force that leads to jumping. The act of jumping is a sign of faith.

You were asking what a person has to do to be saved, but what I've been trying to explain is that it isn't about what we do. We are completely on the receiving end of salvation. All we need is faith, and that is something that God gives us.

Faith in God is a supernatural thing. It is a combination of belief, trust, and love. When the Holy Spirit starts to work in us, faith happens, and it causes us to change from the inside out.

You cannot believe anything you want about God and call it faith. As Paul pointed out once, even the demons believe in God, but they are afraid of Him. They know God, but act in rebellion against him. If they had faith, they would be working for Him, not against Him. They would feel safe when He's near, not afraid.

Now if you want to break down the belief component of faith, we can talk about what specific things one should belief. To that, I'd say that the Biblical message of the Gospel should be believed. Anything that attempts to modify it should be thrown out. For instance, your belief that God would not throw anyone into Hell runs into direct conflict with what the Bible teaches, which is that all of us are by default heading on a path to Hell and that Christ is the only escape.

Free will vs predestination, the gift of tongues, rules on alcohol consumption, etc do not necessarily concern the Gospel, and are not essential to our faith.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Got it. Christians differ widely on how to get to heaven.

So what should the seeker do who wants to know how to get to heaven and is reading this thread? Are you saying that he should just pick one of the responses here and hope it is the right answer?

When all is said and done there are basically only two views within the history of Christian thought on how salvation "works": Synergism and Monergism.

1) Synergism -- Man cooperates with God in some fashion in order to bring about his salvation. Whether we are talking about the Roman Catholic view that salvation is our active participation in and with God's grace by our faith expressed through good and faithful obedience; or if we are talking about the modern Evangelical doctrine that we must offer our willful yes to God by accepting Jesus as our "personal Lord and Savior".

2) Monergism -- God works alone to accomplish our salvation, it is outside of our will, He acts and we passively receive it. The only two theological systems that affirm this are Lutheranism and Reformed theology (i.e. Five Point Calvinism).

In both cases salvation originates from God, by what He has accomplished once and for all through Jesus who was crucified and raised from the dead. Pelagianism--the doctrine that man is capable of being set right with God according to his own merits apart from Divine Grace--is rejected as out-and-out heresy.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[doubtingmerle]

You were asking what a person has to do to be saved, but what I've been trying to explain is that it isn't about what we do. We are completely on the receiving end of salvation. All we need is faith, and that is something that God gives us.

Faith in God is a supernatural thing. It is a combination of belief, trust, and love. When the Holy Spirit starts to work in us, faith happens, and it causes us to change from the inside out.

OK, so don't worry about it? There is not a thing I can do to change my status. If God decides to save me, he will save me. If he doesn't I am history. And that's all there is to it?

You say God creates faith in us, and that faith is a combination of "belief, trust and love". It appears now that our list of requirements is 3 things.

1. God gives us belief.
2. God gives us trust.
3. God gives us love.

And that is it? We just wait and see if God will gives us those three things?

And a person is doomed to everlasting torment in hell without chance of mercy if for some reason God does gives a person only two of those three things? And there is not a thing the sinner can do about it?

 

[doubtingmerle]

well the bible is the only source that we should use to find our beliefs

That is the only source? Then why is there so much confusion here about how to get to heaven?

 

[doubtingmerle]

his big 10 and any commands jesus left with us. do good. that kinda stuff, its all in the bible

Ok, so I need to follow these laws to get to heaven.

The big 10 includes a command to keep Saturday holy. So I must observe the Jewish Sabbath to go to heaven?

Jesus told us to give to every man that asks. Do you give to every swindler who asks of you? Do we need to do that to get to heaven?

 

[CaseyB]

Interesting. So I can decide what to believe about salvation and not ask what you folks think? I must say, I was not expecting that response.

This is the thing. If you want Joe's answer, ask Joe. If you want my answer, ask me. If you want to know the Christian interpretation of the answer, which is what you are essentially asking for here, I'm sorry but because there are different denominations, unless you specify, you will get different answers. This is just a simple reality. If you want the right answer, you have to ask someone who is omniscient, because although every Christian has faith, none have certainty, and if they think they do, they're kidding themselves because faith has nothing to do with evidence

If God wanted us to know that he was real, he'd have made it obvious. That's not what he wants though. He wants us to have faith, because faith is harder.

If you would like a specific denomination's answer, please specify, otherwise I will assume you are either ignoring the unarguable facts I have laid out to you in the first paragraph or lack the logic ability to understand how they are unarguable.

Again, I'm assuming that you don't really want an answer and thus will ignore my post or you will quote one part of it that you have some smart ass answer to. Please don't. I will not be replying to anything else you have to say in this thread. If you would like my answer, or want clarification on something I have said, please PM me, I don't want to be a part of you making Christianity look like a joke anymore.

 

[doubtingmerle]

This is the thing. If you want Joe's answer, ask Joe. If you want my answer, ask me. If you want to know the Christian interpretation of the answer, which is what you are essentially asking for here, I'm sorry but because there are different denominations, unless you specify, you will get different answers. This is just a simple reality. If you want the right answer, you have to ask someone who is omniscient, because although every Christian has faith, none have certainty, and if they think they do, they're kidding themselves because faith has nothing to do with evidence

If God wanted us to know that he was real, he'd have made it obvious. That's not what he wants though. He wants us to have faith, because faith is harder.

If you would like a specific denomination's answer, please specify, otherwise I will assume you are either ignoring the unarguable facts I have laid out to you in the first paragraph or lack the logic ability to understand how they are unarguable.

Again, I'm assuming that you don't really want an answer and thus will ignore my post or you will quote one part of it that you have some smart ass answer to. Please don't. I will not be replying to anything else you have to say in this thread. If you would like my answer, or want clarification on something I have said, please PM me, I don't want to be a part of you making Christianity look like a joke anymore.

There. I quoted the whole thing back to you. Are you happy? Would you like me to copy and paste it a few more times? Seriously, I can do that if this is what you want. We can make as many copies as you want.

Why do people insist that these threads be filled with multiple copies of the same thing? I don't understand. Why not just add what one has to say that is new?

So now I am told that what I get here is just various opinions of different denominations and not necessarily the right answer. And if I want the right answer I need to ask somebody omniscient. OK, you know somebody omniscient, but unfortunately, he does not post at this site, yes? If he has the correct answer (rather than the denominational opinions I get here) it sure would have been nice had he chosen to post here. That would have resolved the question long ago.

You say, "faith has nothing to do with evidence," which seems scary to me. If your beliefs are not based on evidence, how do you know that any of them are true?

You say, "If God wanted us to know that he was real, he'd have made it obvious." So your God appears to be playing a cat and mouse game, hiding from us so it is not obvious, and hoping that we will turn to him without evidence. If God does not want us to go by the evidence, why did he give me a thinker?

You say, "If you would like a specific denomination's answer, please specify". That's odd. I didn't come to inquire about any specific denomination. I came to ask about the right answer. Are you saying nobody here can give me the right answer? They can only let me know what some denomination says? That's not what I came for. I came for the facts.

Instead of asking for a denomination's opinion, can I ask for the opinion of the 12 disciples? How did they say to get to heaven?