What are the "origins" options for Christians?

[WaltonM]

I'd like to know what are the different options for origins theory. For Christians that is. I don't think there are any creationist atheists, right?

 

[Mallon]

Welcome to the forum, WaltonM.
There are many different Christian positions on the origins debate. Check out Prof. Denis Lamoureux's video here, where he outlines these different positions:
1_beyond
You can get the handouts here:
Web Lectures

 

[crawfish]

Here is a semi-comprehensive list:

Young-Earth Creationism - Creation happened in a literal 6 days, universe is 6-10,000 years old.

Gap theory - Creation is 6 literal days, but there is an indeterminate gap between day 1 and 2

Old-Earth Creationism/Progressive Creationism - 6 days represent 6 indeterminate periods of time, but order and all else is literal.

Theistic Evolution/Evolutionary Creationism/Biologos - Creation story is allegorical/symbolic/written with the worldview of an ancient Israelite and therefore should not be taken literally, only spiritually. God created everything purposefully, but used natural means to do so.

Deistic evolution - A creator god instantiated the beginning of creation, but does not interact with its creation.

Atheistic evolution - The universe was created through entirely natural means with no supernatural intervention.

(I added the last one just to differentiate between the last three, btw)

 

[gluadys]

I'd like to know what are the different options for origins theory. For Christians that is. I don't think there are any creationist atheists, right?

The sticky thread "The Full Spectrum of Christian beliefs on Origins" has a fairly comprehensive outline of options. But I think if he were posting it again today (it is 6 years old now) Vance would describe the ID movement somewhat differently. As it has matured the ID movement has tended to see Theistic Evolution/Evolutionary Creation in a hostile light and I dare say the feeling is mutual.

http://www.christianforums.com/t842473/

 

[WaltonM]

Welcome to the forum, WaltonM.
There are many different Christian positions on the origins debate. Check out Prof. Denis Lamoureux's video here, where he outlines these different positions:

Thank you Mallon! I took a look at the lecture link and that's some serious stuff! I look forward to hearing the professors personal story.

(apparently I cannot quote the links you posted since my post count "must be 50 or greater.")

 

[WaltonM]

Thanks crawfish, that is a nicely balanced list with hints of lots of other options in those 6 positions.

 

[Mallon]

Thank you Mallon! I took a look at the lecture link and that's some serious stuff! I look forward to hearing the professors personal story.

(apparently I cannot quote the links you posted since my post count "must be 50 or greater.")

No problem, Walton. If you're interested in learning more about evolutionary creation, be sure to watch Denis' other videos here:
Web Lectures

Also, Gordon Glover's video series is an excellent introduction to the subject:
BEYOND THE FIRMAMENT » Video Presentations

 

[Mallon]

Oh yeah. Can't forget about Biologos' video series, either:
Audio & Video | The BioLogos Forum

 

[WaltonM]

The sticky thread "The Full Spectrum of Christian beliefs on Origins" has a fairly comprehensive outline of options. But I think if he were posting it again today (it is 6 years old now) Vance would describe the ID movement somewhat differently. As it has matured the ID movement has tended to see Theistic Evolution/Evolutionary Creation in a hostile light and I dare say the feeling is mutual.

Thanks Gluadys, more good reading I wasn't aware of! Flat-earthers at number one??

What is the ID movement?

Are there any other acronyms I might need to know?

 

[Mallon]

YEC = young earth creationism
OEC = old earth creationism
TE = theistic evolution
EC = evolutionary creationism (more or less synonymous with TE)
ID = intelligent design

 

[crawfish]

Thanks Gluadys, more good reading I wasn't aware of! Flat-earthers at number one??

What is the ID movement?

Are there any other acronyms I might need to know?

ID = Intelligent Design. Ostensibly, believes that an intelligent agent was involved in the creation of all things. However, it has evolved into more of a political movement to get Creationist terms into schools. As an idea, it should not exclude TE/EC/Biologos or even deistic evolution, since all propose an ultimate creator, but as a movement it does not accept the possibility of evolution through common descent as being a mechanism of a creator. ID = anti-evolution, for all intents and purposes.

ID is not a Christian movement, though. It cannot be and still be seen as a teaching option in public schools; it must be separate from religion to be successfully argued. It includes Christians, Muslims, Jews and even some atheists.

 

[lucaspa]

I'd like to know what are the different options for origins theory. For Christians that is. I don't think there are any creationist atheists, right?

As Mallon said, there are Christians with a wide variety of positions. However, the only position that stands up to testing from God's Creation is theistic evolution. That is, the processes discovered by science are how God created.

 

[lucaspa]

Thanks Gluadys, more good reading I wasn't aware of! Flat-earthers at number one??

What is the ID movement?

As Mallon explained, ID is Intelligent Design. It is esentially the Special Creation and Argument from Design of the period 1800 - 1859 dusted off and tried to make look new. Basically, ID says that an intelligent entity (really God) directly manufactured either whole species or parts of them. By "design" they mean "manufactured in their present form". Therefore, according to ID, there is no process in nature that would produce what they claim is "manufactured".

As it turns out, natural selection is an unintelligent process that guarantees design. So yes, organisms are designed, but designed by natural selection.

Are there any other acronyms I might need to know?

Let's see. There is YEC for 'young earth creationism", OEC for "old earth creationism", TE for "theistic evolution". NS for "natural selection". MN for "methodological naturalism", AP for "anthropic principle". I'm sure we can find others for you.

 

[WaltonM]

Yesterday I watched Prof. Denis Lamoureux's video, his personal journey. Whoa. That video helped me understand quite a bit that has been going on in the origins debate. I did some googling too and found there was a debate between Philip Johnson and Lamoureux.

My own personal view has been an in between or perhaps no view? So this is helping me think through some things. Thanks Mallon!

 

[Mallon]

Yesterday I watched Prof. Denis Lamoureux's video, his personal journey. Whoa. That video helped me understand quite a bit that has been going on in the origins debate. I did some googling too and found there was a debate between Philip Johnson and Lamoureux.

My own personal view has been an in between or perhaps no view? So this is helping me think through some things. Thanks Mallon!

Glad to be of service.
Lamoureux did indeed have a debate with Johnson, and it's all laid out in their co-authored book "Darwinism Defeated? The Johnson-Lamoureux Debate on Biological Origins". It's a good read if you can get a hold of it.

BTW, you might also be interested in Steve Martin's blog, "An Evangelical Dialogue on Evolution." It goes beyond the petty bickering that often happens here and really delves deep into the relationship between Christian theology and science:

An Evangelical Dialogue on Evolution

 

[hedrick]

In theory, intelligent design says that there are specific organs or functions that can't possibly have developed without intervention by an intelligent force. I read Behe's initial book when it came out. My impression was that he was thinking of theistic evolution, in the original late 19th Cent sense. Before evolution was married to genetics, it was unclear what the mechanism was of species developing. One theory was that God was directly responsible for the changes. That was called theistic evolution. At this point I think what most people mean by theistic evolution is the normal scientific model, but with God being responsible for evolution just as he is responsible for all of history. In other areas we accept that God acts through secondary causes. Evolution is seen as the way he carries out development of species. This is subtly different from the older meaning, because it does not involve God's direct intervention. However while Behe believes in direct intervention (presumably by God) I believe that he does accept development of species over a very long period of time. (This is supported by the article on him in Wikipedia.) This doesn't seem to be compatible with a literal interpretation of Genesis. Thus it would seem to combine the disadvantages of both evolution and creationism.

I agree that his arguments have been taken up by people who are trying to sell creationism and make it look scientific. I'm not sure however that it fits.

 

[shernren]

I'd like to know what are the different options for origins theory. For Christians that is. I don't think there are any creationist atheists, right?

Does Fred Hoyle count?

 

[juvenissun]

I'd like to know what are the different options for origins theory. For Christians that is. I don't think there are any creationist atheists, right?

1. Creation
2. Evolution

That is about it. ID is a political idea rather than a religious idea.

Of course, we have a lot ideas within each category and a lot more ideas that mixed 1. and 2. But I don't count them as independent ideas.

 

[juvenissun]

Yesterday I watched Prof. Denis Lamoureux's video, his personal journey. Whoa. That video helped me understand quite a bit that has been going on in the origins debate. I did some googling too and found there was a debate between Philip Johnson and Lamoureux.

My own personal view has been an in between or perhaps no view? So this is helping me think through some things. Thanks Mallon!

It is always better to form your own idea first, then examine other's idea against yours, instead of going the other way around. This is particularly true to Christians. If you have no idea to start with, then read the Scripture, pray and make up an idea.