NightEternal
Evangelical SDA
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Zionsfriend
Junior Member
Telaquapacky: "I hope nobody minds me speaking on behalf of Progressives, since I am myself not a Progressive, but a moderate."
This is actually a repeat of a post I made on another forum but I think it applies here.
I've found over the years that the term 'moderate' is a self applied term mostly used by liberal politicians to soften their public image. In general, conservatives take pride in their conservative image so they don't claim a moderate position as often. As far as religion is concerned it seems to be a little more complicated but still follows the same pattern. Of course there are conservatives that claim moderate because they have a fear of being branded "fundamentalist' which is not a politically correct term in today's society. I have noticed that conservatives tend to be more Bible oriented and as the scale moves over to the liberal side there is less and less acceptance of the Bible as God's Word. There are always acceptions to the pattern, which you may be, but I think in general, that's the way it is. In my opinion we are basically all either liberal or conservative but some of us claim the term 'moderate' to enhance our public image.
This is actually a repeat of a post I made on another forum but I think it applies here.
I've found over the years that the term 'moderate' is a self applied term mostly used by liberal politicians to soften their public image. In general, conservatives take pride in their conservative image so they don't claim a moderate position as often. As far as religion is concerned it seems to be a little more complicated but still follows the same pattern. Of course there are conservatives that claim moderate because they have a fear of being branded "fundamentalist' which is not a politically correct term in today's society. I have noticed that conservatives tend to be more Bible oriented and as the scale moves over to the liberal side there is less and less acceptance of the Bible as God's Word. There are always acceptions to the pattern, which you may be, but I think in general, that's the way it is. In my opinion we are basically all either liberal or conservative but some of us claim the term 'moderate' to enhance our public image.
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Telaquapacky
Unconquerable Good Will
Zionsfriend and RND,
I can't deny that I have problems. My spiritual life is complicated and nuanced. Read my testimony in the testimony section. This may be a complete hallucination on my part, and undoubtedly some would say that it is, but I believe that God led me to the Seventh-day Adventist church by an uncanny and supernatural set of circumstances. I started believing some Adventist beliefs even before I ever heard of the church. When I read the Great Controversy (which is chock full of the EGW stuff progressives balk at), I was convinced that this was the truth and I needed to be baptized. Thing is, I hold a set of beliefs that most would call dyed-in-the-wool traditional, mainly because my experiences made me think God led me this way. Some very intelligent and spiritual progressive friends of mine have presented compelling evidences contrary to the doctrines I mentioned earlier. I just felt I had to be obedient to the vision- the vision God gave me. I know that sounds stubborn and close-minded, but as long as I could come up with plausible defenses, I stuck to what I originally believed because I felt God led me this way, and it seems unsafe for me to stray too far.
I'm not in this church because mommy and daddy dragged me here by my ear, or because some windy evangelist caught me in a weak moment. God put me here.
But what makes me different from a traditional is that I see the points the progressives make, and I understand perfectly why they believe that way- I don't judge them as if they're liberals or backsliders, or had a bad experience with someone in the church. I see a conscientious seeking for the truth in my Progressive friends that I respect, even though I have to follow the path it seems God has chosen for me.
RND, if you want to call it riding the fence, like I'm spineless or something, that's your opinion, and though I disagree, I probably can't change your mind. Sounds like you are teasing me for not joining the Trad debate team. And Zionsfriend, if you say, "I've found.." that moderates playing both sides to be politically-correct people pleasers, how did you find that? Did they tell you? Were you ever a moderate? Do you know me well enough to know I fit into that same mold? Jeremiah says "Who can know their own hearts?" Yet you know the hearts of others. Wow, brother, praise God for your spiritual gift!
I just believe in building bridges, not walls. I intend to be living proof that you can keep your faith and love and have fun and rewarding relationships with people who believe otherwise. Noboby's gonna tell me who I can be friends with and who I can't.
I can't deny that I have problems. My spiritual life is complicated and nuanced. Read my testimony in the testimony section. This may be a complete hallucination on my part, and undoubtedly some would say that it is, but I believe that God led me to the Seventh-day Adventist church by an uncanny and supernatural set of circumstances. I started believing some Adventist beliefs even before I ever heard of the church. When I read the Great Controversy (which is chock full of the EGW stuff progressives balk at), I was convinced that this was the truth and I needed to be baptized. Thing is, I hold a set of beliefs that most would call dyed-in-the-wool traditional, mainly because my experiences made me think God led me this way. Some very intelligent and spiritual progressive friends of mine have presented compelling evidences contrary to the doctrines I mentioned earlier. I just felt I had to be obedient to the vision- the vision God gave me. I know that sounds stubborn and close-minded, but as long as I could come up with plausible defenses, I stuck to what I originally believed because I felt God led me this way, and it seems unsafe for me to stray too far.
I'm not in this church because mommy and daddy dragged me here by my ear, or because some windy evangelist caught me in a weak moment. God put me here.
But what makes me different from a traditional is that I see the points the progressives make, and I understand perfectly why they believe that way- I don't judge them as if they're liberals or backsliders, or had a bad experience with someone in the church. I see a conscientious seeking for the truth in my Progressive friends that I respect, even though I have to follow the path it seems God has chosen for me.
RND, if you want to call it riding the fence, like I'm spineless or something, that's your opinion, and though I disagree, I probably can't change your mind. Sounds like you are teasing me for not joining the Trad debate team. And Zionsfriend, if you say, "I've found.." that moderates playing both sides to be politically-correct people pleasers, how did you find that? Did they tell you? Were you ever a moderate? Do you know me well enough to know I fit into that same mold? Jeremiah says "Who can know their own hearts?" Yet you know the hearts of others. Wow, brother, praise God for your spiritual gift!
I just believe in building bridges, not walls. I intend to be living proof that you can keep your faith and love and have fun and rewarding relationships with people who believe otherwise. Noboby's gonna tell me who I can be friends with and who I can't.
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Zionsfriend
Junior Member
"I've found.." that moderates playing both sides to be politically-correct people pleasers, how did you find that? Did they tell you? Were you ever a moderate? Do you know me well enough to know I fit into that same mold"
Most of the politicians that claim moderate, if you get down to the basics of what they absolutely support and believe in, you will find 90% of the time they are actually liberals. (from experience). Very few "christians" will actually describe themselves as liberals. Most that are liberal will tell you very sincerely that they are moderates or progressives and they actually believe they are. I can't say that I've ever been a "moderate christian" because the term can be defined so many different ways but never conservative. I don't know you well enough to put you in any group and I made an exception for that in my last post. I did not judge you or make any comment about you personally. Only you know whether your beliefs lean toward a liberal interpretation of the Bible or a conservative one. I did not make any posts seeking debate or argument, only stating my opinion.
Most of the politicians that claim moderate, if you get down to the basics of what they absolutely support and believe in, you will find 90% of the time they are actually liberals. (from experience). Very few "christians" will actually describe themselves as liberals. Most that are liberal will tell you very sincerely that they are moderates or progressives and they actually believe they are. I can't say that I've ever been a "moderate christian" because the term can be defined so many different ways but never conservative. I don't know you well enough to put you in any group and I made an exception for that in my last post. I did not judge you or make any comment about you personally. Only you know whether your beliefs lean toward a liberal interpretation of the Bible or a conservative one. I did not make any posts seeking debate or argument, only stating my opinion.
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Telaquapacky
Unconquerable Good Will
Thank you, Zionsfriend. Did you read my testimony? http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=37529990&postcount=17
I can identify with what you say about conservative, liberal and moderate- they are misunderstood terms that people use for effect.
My moderation is in my Adventist theological attitudes- in that I am easy for people on both sides of the church to get along with. I try to avoid traffic in the enmity that exists between traditionals and progressives.
As a Christian, I don't consider myself moderate, but morally conservative. As a citizen I don't consider myself moderate, but strongly politically liberal.
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Telaquapacky
Unconquerable Good Will
So anyway, to bring the thread back on topic, about the differences between Traditionals and Progressives, I would state three opinions:
1. Trad or Prog doesn't have anything to do with how morally conservative or liberal you are (who would know anyway?)
2. Trad or Prog doesn't have anything to do with your brand of politics, liberal or conservative.
3. About Bible interpretation, Progressives follow a more strictly exegetical theology (they won't go beyond what a text actually says, even if a text somewhere else appears to say something different); Traditionals follow a more systematic theology (they claim their views are supported by hermeneutics, or the "whole tenor of Scripture"- and they use that to argue away the texts that don't appear to agree with them). As a moderate, I see potential problems with each of those theologies
This thread should have addressed the question of "what is a moderate?"
1. Being a Moderate SDA has nothing to do with one's political views, liberal or conservative,
2. It has nothing to do with one's moral views or practice, liberal or conservative,
3. A moderate isn't just fence-sitting, or trying to get along with everyone (though there's nothing wrong with trying to get along with everyone), It's really a third theological category that shares some things in common with the other two camps, but doesn't fit strictly into either Trad or Progressive.
1. Trad or Prog doesn't have anything to do with how morally conservative or liberal you are (who would know anyway?)
2. Trad or Prog doesn't have anything to do with your brand of politics, liberal or conservative.
3. About Bible interpretation, Progressives follow a more strictly exegetical theology (they won't go beyond what a text actually says, even if a text somewhere else appears to say something different); Traditionals follow a more systematic theology (they claim their views are supported by hermeneutics, or the "whole tenor of Scripture"- and they use that to argue away the texts that don't appear to agree with them). As a moderate, I see potential problems with each of those theologies
This thread should have addressed the question of "what is a moderate?"
1. Being a Moderate SDA has nothing to do with one's political views, liberal or conservative,
2. It has nothing to do with one's moral views or practice, liberal or conservative,
3. A moderate isn't just fence-sitting, or trying to get along with everyone (though there's nothing wrong with trying to get along with everyone), It's really a third theological category that shares some things in common with the other two camps, but doesn't fit strictly into either Trad or Progressive.
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RC_NewProtestants
Senior Veteran
- May 2, 2006
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I would love to hear the definition of SDA moderate, I don't think there is one really. Rush Limbaugh often says of political moderates show me the books in the library of great moderates of history.
Aside from yourself who would you identify as a renowned Adventist moderate? If you can find one then we could possible be on the trail of a definition. someone might suggest Morris Vendon but he is pretty much hated by Traditionals and he claims that EGW is a divine commentator on the Bible. So his only claim to be a moderate in those things is not what he believes but that Traditional SDA don't like him because he is too grace oriented. And you can't be grace oriented and hold to Last Generation Theology
Aside from yourself who would you identify as a renowned Adventist moderate? If you can find one then we could possible be on the trail of a definition. someone might suggest Morris Vendon but he is pretty much hated by Traditionals and he claims that EGW is a divine commentator on the Bible. So his only claim to be a moderate in those things is not what he believes but that Traditional SDA don't like him because he is too grace oriented. And you can't be grace oriented and hold to Last Generation Theology
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Telaquapacky
Unconquerable Good Will
Hello, RC. Wikipedia offers an adequate definition of a Moderate. Obviously I am not into Rush Limbaugh, but as for the great moderates of history (I'm sure he's talking about political moderates), they are the unsung heroes. It's the moderates that get everything done in spite of the extremists, and the extremists who take credit for everything. It's the moderates that mop up the path of destruction left behind by the extremists. Where would we be without great moderates like Abe Lincoln, F.W. DeKlerk and Mikhail Gorbachev?
I do think of Morrie Venden as a renouned moderate SDA. My opinion of a quintessential SDA moderate would be Bert Beverly Beach (another one not particularly liked by Traditionals). You know, NightEternal posted a comprehensive list of SDA writers, classifying them and naming some excellent moderate SDA writers (you might remember that post). I don't have time to search for it. Maybe Night can provide a link to that.
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NightEternal
Evangelical SDA
- Apr 18, 2007
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Here you go:
LIBERAL ADVENTISTS: This group is mostly centralized in southern California, but they can be found almost anywhere in the world. These are Adventists who have accepted the liberal Christian concepts where just about anything goes. Do not hold to literal interpretations of Scripture from Genesis through the Gospels as well as the remainder of the New Testament. Scripture is regarded as a collection of myths or stories and historical exaggerations used to teach moral lessons. Some may hold other Gnostic ancient books as on the same level of importance as the Bible. They do not believe in the literal creation account, world-wide flood, or miracles, including the resurrection of Jesus. Many have accepted evolution in some form into thier belief systems. Beliefs can range from no after-life to Universalism. Homosexuality is accepted as another lifestyle alternative and impulse that God created people with. Ellen White means nothing to them and they have all but discarded most of the distinctive fundamentals as well as orthodox Christian fundamentals. They are often 'cultural' Adventists who still enjoy the oppourtunity to discuss with others philosophical ideas concerning the Sabbath. They may enjoy church services of various kinds or none at all, from high church to celebrationn services. Will often call themselves Christian Agnostics or Agnostic Christians. In fact, the only SDA feature many liberal Adventists have retained is the Sabbath. Almost all attend movies of any sort, wear jewelry, eat meat, drink coffee and caffeinated pops, some partake of unclean foods, many drink alcoholic wine, especially in the areas of California where vineyards are found. Women's ordination has never been a question and the SCC implemented it years ago against the official stand of the conference.
Key Adventist Figures: Steve Daily
PROGRESSIVE ADVENTISTS: Highly regard science, logic, reason and the historical-critical method. Will adopt any modern means of Biblical interpretation available. Want to do away with many of the fundamentals, especially the IJ/1844/Heavenly sanctuary doctrines. Believe Ellen White is a woman of her times whose works may contain inspirational material that may be used in a pastoral way. Do not believe she has doctrinal authourity. Some hold to a literal creation account, world-wide flood and miracles. Others see the Genesis story as non-literal and consider other methods of creation possible. The post-modern movement can also be traced to this group. In understanding post-modern philosophy, they desire to have the church be relevant in the present time and do not regard the history and legacy of the Adventist pioneers as the embodiment of religious truth. Some have adopted the views of the moral influence/larger view Adventists and rejected penal, legal atonemt. Others hold to such atonement theories as Christus Victor, Federal Head and Recapitulation. There may be an amalgam of several atonement theories. A credo would probably be reason over tradition. Spreading like wildfire in many European countries.
Key Adventist Figures: Riendeer Bruinsma, Alden Thompson, Richard Rice, Fritz Guy, John McLarty (Adventist Today), Spectrum Magazine
MORAL INFLUENCE/LARGER VIEW ADVENTISTS: Also found mostly in Southern California/Loma Linda area, this group denies that God will destroy the wicked in the end. They believe that sin itself will consume them without any intervention on God's part. Absolutely deny legal/forensic/penal atonement. Heavy emphasis on the love and mercy of Christ to the exclusion of His anger and justice. Revere Ellen White, but they only pick and choose that which reflects thier unique views. Heavily influenced by the views of Peter Abelard. You can find many of them on the website Heavenly Sanctuary.
Key Figures: Graham Maxwell (Pine Knoll), Dan Smith, <staff edit>, Michael Klute.
EVANGELICAL ADVENTISTS: Champions of Reformation justification by faith and the closest segment to the positions of Luther and the reformers. Bitterly fight against sinless perfection/final generation theology and the belief in the sinful nature of Christ. Consider both full-blown heresy. The most user-friendly Adventism and the one subgroup that presents the most acceptable Adventist face to mainline Protestantism. Believe the atonement was completed at the cross. Stand firmly behind Questions On Doctrine as representative of balanced Adventist thought. Have realistic views of inspiration and completely reject verbal inspiration for both the Bible and Ellen White. Ardent holders to thought inspiration. Ellen White highly regarded, but do not believe she has doctrinal authourity and believe she is subject to the New Testament apostles. Some Evangelical Adventists have abandoned EGW, but not all. Completely reject traditional understanding of the IJ as detrimental to assurance of salvation. Hold to pre-Advent judgment where the salvation of God's people is not under question. Very firm and uncompromising in thier opposition to Rome. Worship services are predominately contemporary with CCM as well as heavily influenced by Willow Creek seeker-services.
Key Figures: George Knight, Graeme Bradford, Hans LaRondelle, H.M.S. Richards Sr. (Voice Of Prophecy), Raymond Cottrell, Desmond Ford (Good News Unlimited), Edward Heppenstall, Frank Phillips
MODERATE ADVENTISTS: The largest subgroup by far, this constitutes the majority in the pews. Standard Adventist beliefs, hold to the fundamentals. Avoids either extreme and and tries to be balanced. High regard for Ellen white but do not hold to verbal inspiration nor elevate her above the Bible. Mainline believers who support official church mission ardently. Stay very close to offical GC policy, mandate and standard Adventist worldview.
Key Figures: Mark Finley, Dwight Nelson, Keavin Hayden, Marvin Moore, Roy Adams, Ed Christian, Morris Venden, Jack Sequeira (Vineyard Ministries), Shawn Boonstra (It Is Written), Steven Mosley, Steve Wohlberg, Lonnie Melashenko (Voice Of Prophecy), George Vandeman (Voice Of Prophecy)
CONSERVATIVE/TRADITIONAL ADVENTISTS: Close to moderate Adventists, but with a little more lean to the right. Bitterly oppose women's ordination, CCM, meat-eating, justification by faith as taught by Luther. Very high regard for Ellen White, borderline verbal inspirationists. Revere the law and the Ten Commandments and have sinless perfection tendencies. Many are heavily involved in Jesuit/Catholic/Masonic conspiracy theories. Staunch defenders of the 28 fundamentals and lovers of pioneer, 1800's style Adventism. Major representation in third world countries such as Africa and South America.
Key Figures: William Johnsson, Cifford Goldstein, Doug Batchelor (Amazing Facts), Sam Bacchiocchi (Biblical Perspectives), Sam Koranteng Pipim, Herbert Douglass, Ed Reid, Kenneth Cox, Richard O'Ffill (Revival Sermons), Danny Shelton (3 ABN), Walter Veith (Amazing Discoveries), Jan Marcussen, David Asscherick, Leo Schriven, Bill Tucker (The Quiet Hour), Robert Weiland and Donald Short (The 1888 Message Committee), C.D. Brooks
ULTRA-CONSERVATIVE/TRADITIONAL ADVENTISTS: Historical Adventists who represent the far right. Believe in the sinful nature of Christ, righteousness by works, have a hatred for the Reformation gospel. Sinless perfectionists who believe Christ merely set the example we can follow until we reach the condition of Adam before the fall-all before glorification, which they believe only changes the physical and nothing else. Bitterly oppose Questions On Doctrine, consider it the most hated book ever published in Adventism. Heavy emphasis on IJ, traditional style and making oneself worthy to pass inspection by Jesus. Strict diet reform emphasis, all are vegetarian, most are vegan. Borderline deificaiton of Ellen white, verbal inspirationist leanings. Most regard EGW as equal to the Bible in authourity and the final say in all matters not addressed in Scripture. Many can be found on such websites as Revival Sermons, Great Controversy, Adventist Affirm, SDA Defend, Temcat's House
Key Figures: M.L. Andreason, Kevin Paulson, Larry Kirkpatrick, Joe Crews, Vance farrell, Dennis Priebe, Stephen Lewis
EXTREMIST ULTRA-CONSERVATIVE TRADITIONAL ADVENTISTS/FFSHOOTS/INDEPENDENT MINISTRIES: About as far right you can go in Adventism. The most disturbing, frightening Adventism available. Ultra-strict, unyeilding dress reform, diet reform, mind reform, any reform you can think of. Hyper-vegan, believe diet is a salvation issue and meat-eaters are lost. Heavy, extreme emphasis on historic Adventism and the pioneers. Agenda to purify the Adventist church and get back to 1800 style Adventism. Shepherd's Rod believe they will be the instruments of destruction God will use to cleanse the camp of modern-day Adventism at some point in the future. Have thier own communes, schools, churches, camp meetings, etc. Deify Ellen White, all but have included her in the Biblical canon. Fringe groups who believe that only a literal 144,000 are going through to the end. Hatred for corporate Adventism and conference structure. Believe the GC is the seat of the beast, riddled with Jesuit infiltrators. Hatred for any modern expressions of Adventism, believe they are the only true Adventists and the rest are lost. All believe the mainline church is in apostasy and is fallen Babylon, and so a call for as many as possible to come out is needed. Many use cultish fear-tactics and brainwashing to recruit and retain thier followers.
Key Groups/Figures: Shepherd's Rod (Victor Houteff), Branch Davidians, SDA Reform, Remnant Of The Remnant, Our Firm Foundation/Hope International (Ralph Larson), Hartland Institute (Colin and Russell Standish)
http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=37216764#post37216764
LIBERAL ADVENTISTS: This group is mostly centralized in southern California, but they can be found almost anywhere in the world. These are Adventists who have accepted the liberal Christian concepts where just about anything goes. Do not hold to literal interpretations of Scripture from Genesis through the Gospels as well as the remainder of the New Testament. Scripture is regarded as a collection of myths or stories and historical exaggerations used to teach moral lessons. Some may hold other Gnostic ancient books as on the same level of importance as the Bible. They do not believe in the literal creation account, world-wide flood, or miracles, including the resurrection of Jesus. Many have accepted evolution in some form into thier belief systems. Beliefs can range from no after-life to Universalism. Homosexuality is accepted as another lifestyle alternative and impulse that God created people with. Ellen White means nothing to them and they have all but discarded most of the distinctive fundamentals as well as orthodox Christian fundamentals. They are often 'cultural' Adventists who still enjoy the oppourtunity to discuss with others philosophical ideas concerning the Sabbath. They may enjoy church services of various kinds or none at all, from high church to celebrationn services. Will often call themselves Christian Agnostics or Agnostic Christians. In fact, the only SDA feature many liberal Adventists have retained is the Sabbath. Almost all attend movies of any sort, wear jewelry, eat meat, drink coffee and caffeinated pops, some partake of unclean foods, many drink alcoholic wine, especially in the areas of California where vineyards are found. Women's ordination has never been a question and the SCC implemented it years ago against the official stand of the conference.
Key Adventist Figures: Steve Daily
PROGRESSIVE ADVENTISTS: Highly regard science, logic, reason and the historical-critical method. Will adopt any modern means of Biblical interpretation available. Want to do away with many of the fundamentals, especially the IJ/1844/Heavenly sanctuary doctrines. Believe Ellen White is a woman of her times whose works may contain inspirational material that may be used in a pastoral way. Do not believe she has doctrinal authourity. Some hold to a literal creation account, world-wide flood and miracles. Others see the Genesis story as non-literal and consider other methods of creation possible. The post-modern movement can also be traced to this group. In understanding post-modern philosophy, they desire to have the church be relevant in the present time and do not regard the history and legacy of the Adventist pioneers as the embodiment of religious truth. Some have adopted the views of the moral influence/larger view Adventists and rejected penal, legal atonemt. Others hold to such atonement theories as Christus Victor, Federal Head and Recapitulation. There may be an amalgam of several atonement theories. A credo would probably be reason over tradition. Spreading like wildfire in many European countries.
Key Adventist Figures: Riendeer Bruinsma, Alden Thompson, Richard Rice, Fritz Guy, John McLarty (Adventist Today), Spectrum Magazine
MORAL INFLUENCE/LARGER VIEW ADVENTISTS: Also found mostly in Southern California/Loma Linda area, this group denies that God will destroy the wicked in the end. They believe that sin itself will consume them without any intervention on God's part. Absolutely deny legal/forensic/penal atonement. Heavy emphasis on the love and mercy of Christ to the exclusion of His anger and justice. Revere Ellen White, but they only pick and choose that which reflects thier unique views. Heavily influenced by the views of Peter Abelard. You can find many of them on the website Heavenly Sanctuary.
Key Figures: Graham Maxwell (Pine Knoll), Dan Smith, <staff edit>, Michael Klute.
EVANGELICAL ADVENTISTS: Champions of Reformation justification by faith and the closest segment to the positions of Luther and the reformers. Bitterly fight against sinless perfection/final generation theology and the belief in the sinful nature of Christ. Consider both full-blown heresy. The most user-friendly Adventism and the one subgroup that presents the most acceptable Adventist face to mainline Protestantism. Believe the atonement was completed at the cross. Stand firmly behind Questions On Doctrine as representative of balanced Adventist thought. Have realistic views of inspiration and completely reject verbal inspiration for both the Bible and Ellen White. Ardent holders to thought inspiration. Ellen White highly regarded, but do not believe she has doctrinal authourity and believe she is subject to the New Testament apostles. Some Evangelical Adventists have abandoned EGW, but not all. Completely reject traditional understanding of the IJ as detrimental to assurance of salvation. Hold to pre-Advent judgment where the salvation of God's people is not under question. Very firm and uncompromising in thier opposition to Rome. Worship services are predominately contemporary with CCM as well as heavily influenced by Willow Creek seeker-services.
Key Figures: George Knight, Graeme Bradford, Hans LaRondelle, H.M.S. Richards Sr. (Voice Of Prophecy), Raymond Cottrell, Desmond Ford (Good News Unlimited), Edward Heppenstall, Frank Phillips
MODERATE ADVENTISTS: The largest subgroup by far, this constitutes the majority in the pews. Standard Adventist beliefs, hold to the fundamentals. Avoids either extreme and and tries to be balanced. High regard for Ellen white but do not hold to verbal inspiration nor elevate her above the Bible. Mainline believers who support official church mission ardently. Stay very close to offical GC policy, mandate and standard Adventist worldview.
Key Figures: Mark Finley, Dwight Nelson, Keavin Hayden, Marvin Moore, Roy Adams, Ed Christian, Morris Venden, Jack Sequeira (Vineyard Ministries), Shawn Boonstra (It Is Written), Steven Mosley, Steve Wohlberg, Lonnie Melashenko (Voice Of Prophecy), George Vandeman (Voice Of Prophecy)
CONSERVATIVE/TRADITIONAL ADVENTISTS: Close to moderate Adventists, but with a little more lean to the right. Bitterly oppose women's ordination, CCM, meat-eating, justification by faith as taught by Luther. Very high regard for Ellen White, borderline verbal inspirationists. Revere the law and the Ten Commandments and have sinless perfection tendencies. Many are heavily involved in Jesuit/Catholic/Masonic conspiracy theories. Staunch defenders of the 28 fundamentals and lovers of pioneer, 1800's style Adventism. Major representation in third world countries such as Africa and South America.
Key Figures: William Johnsson, Cifford Goldstein, Doug Batchelor (Amazing Facts), Sam Bacchiocchi (Biblical Perspectives), Sam Koranteng Pipim, Herbert Douglass, Ed Reid, Kenneth Cox, Richard O'Ffill (Revival Sermons), Danny Shelton (3 ABN), Walter Veith (Amazing Discoveries), Jan Marcussen, David Asscherick, Leo Schriven, Bill Tucker (The Quiet Hour), Robert Weiland and Donald Short (The 1888 Message Committee), C.D. Brooks
ULTRA-CONSERVATIVE/TRADITIONAL ADVENTISTS: Historical Adventists who represent the far right. Believe in the sinful nature of Christ, righteousness by works, have a hatred for the Reformation gospel. Sinless perfectionists who believe Christ merely set the example we can follow until we reach the condition of Adam before the fall-all before glorification, which they believe only changes the physical and nothing else. Bitterly oppose Questions On Doctrine, consider it the most hated book ever published in Adventism. Heavy emphasis on IJ, traditional style and making oneself worthy to pass inspection by Jesus. Strict diet reform emphasis, all are vegetarian, most are vegan. Borderline deificaiton of Ellen white, verbal inspirationist leanings. Most regard EGW as equal to the Bible in authourity and the final say in all matters not addressed in Scripture. Many can be found on such websites as Revival Sermons, Great Controversy, Adventist Affirm, SDA Defend, Temcat's House
Key Figures: M.L. Andreason, Kevin Paulson, Larry Kirkpatrick, Joe Crews, Vance farrell, Dennis Priebe, Stephen Lewis
EXTREMIST ULTRA-CONSERVATIVE TRADITIONAL ADVENTISTS/FFSHOOTS/INDEPENDENT MINISTRIES: About as far right you can go in Adventism. The most disturbing, frightening Adventism available. Ultra-strict, unyeilding dress reform, diet reform, mind reform, any reform you can think of. Hyper-vegan, believe diet is a salvation issue and meat-eaters are lost. Heavy, extreme emphasis on historic Adventism and the pioneers. Agenda to purify the Adventist church and get back to 1800 style Adventism. Shepherd's Rod believe they will be the instruments of destruction God will use to cleanse the camp of modern-day Adventism at some point in the future. Have thier own communes, schools, churches, camp meetings, etc. Deify Ellen White, all but have included her in the Biblical canon. Fringe groups who believe that only a literal 144,000 are going through to the end. Hatred for corporate Adventism and conference structure. Believe the GC is the seat of the beast, riddled with Jesuit infiltrators. Hatred for any modern expressions of Adventism, believe they are the only true Adventists and the rest are lost. All believe the mainline church is in apostasy and is fallen Babylon, and so a call for as many as possible to come out is needed. Many use cultish fear-tactics and brainwashing to recruit and retain thier followers.
Key Groups/Figures: Shepherd's Rod (Victor Houteff), Branch Davidians, SDA Reform, Remnant Of The Remnant, Our Firm Foundation/Hope International (Ralph Larson), Hartland Institute (Colin and Russell Standish)
http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=37216764#post37216764
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RND
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- Jul 20, 2006
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That's a very interesting post. I like so many of these pastors and commentators no matter where they line-up in the Adventists spectrum.
There are some who are progressive (Alden Thompson) and many who are moderate (Mark Finley, Dwight Nelson, Keavin Hayden, Jack Sequeira (Vineyard Ministries), Shawn Boonstra (It Is Written), Steven Mosley, Steve Wohlberg, Lonnie Melashenko (Voice Of Prophecy) that I really enjoy listening to.
There are some who are progressive (Alden Thompson) and many who are moderate (Mark Finley, Dwight Nelson, Keavin Hayden, Jack Sequeira (Vineyard Ministries), Shawn Boonstra (It Is Written), Steven Mosley, Steve Wohlberg, Lonnie Melashenko (Voice Of Prophecy) that I really enjoy listening to.
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RC_NewProtestants
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Well it seems to be a nice statement but has little to do with reality. The list of moderates there is very traditional oriented. Wohlberg and Finley, Dwight Nelson, Marvin Moore. Not even close to moderates.
The prerequist for any label is that the people label themselves, either traditional progressive or moderates. Abraham Lincoln was never identified as a moderate by the people of his time or by himself. But when speaking of SDA's you have to allow that the moderates self identify as moderates. I don't think any of those people have done that.
The only reason that someone could say the largest subgroup is moderates is because the main Adventist in the pew has not thought about the issues involved they just go to church listen to a sermon and go home. Their lack of involvement is viewed as being moderate.
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NightEternal
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Moderates in the Adventist church are usually conservative leaning, simply because of the nature of the denomination. I consider them moderates because they are not as unyielding and unreasonable as thier fundamentalist counterparts. They are more willing to rethink things and adept to change than the ultra-conservatives are.
They are right-wingers, but they are not overbearing and intolerant about it. It isn't the be-all end-all as it were.
Thus, they incorporate elements of conservatism in moderation.
Bottom line-an Evangelical or Progressive SDA is going to get a lot further and make more progress with a balanced, reasonable Roy Adams than they ever will with a cultic, ultra-conservative Larry Kirkpatrick.
They are right-wingers, but they are not overbearing and intolerant about it. It isn't the be-all end-all as it were.
Thus, they incorporate elements of conservatism in moderation.
Bottom line-an Evangelical or Progressive SDA is going to get a lot further and make more progress with a balanced, reasonable Roy Adams than they ever will with a cultic, ultra-conservative Larry Kirkpatrick.
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This is a decent breakdown. I had written a similar description elsewhere, but this goes into more detail.
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This is a decent breakdown. I had written a similar description elsewhere, but this goes into more detail. I wouldn't call Des Ford a progessive Adventist though. He hasn't rejected the tradition understanding of the IJ, he has completely rejected the IJ.
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however isn't possible for one to reject the IJ, hold on to other concepts i.e. the sabbath, and still be considered a progressive?
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Telaquapacky
Unconquerable Good Will
I agree, and thanks, Night for quickly finding that great post of yours!
I would add to the list of moderates, Dr. Jon Paulien, Bert B. Beach, Jose Rojas and Ron Halvorsen. Bert Beach is the guy who gets barbecued by traditionals because he gave a commemorative medal to Pope John Paul II from the GC.
Other lesser-known but great moderate preachers I have heard at campmeeting are Henry Monroe Wright and Walter L. Wright.
The best place to hear moderate preachers is on the last Sabbath evening meeting at campmeeting, where their messages are very evangelical and geared both towards opening the doors of the church to new converts, and toward exhorting Traditionals to lighten up.
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