"What" are the keys?

[OrthodoxyUSA]

"What" are the keys mentioned in Matthew 16:19?

Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

My answer is, they are the sacraments.

God be gracious to me a sinner?

 

[martymonster]

No sorry, the keys are the keys to understand scripture which has been sealed with seven seals.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

No sorry, the keys are the keys to understand scripture which has been sealed with seven seals.

Christ gave the keys to Peter before his death.

Christ explained the scriptures to the Apostles after his resurrection.

The NT did not yet exist.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

 

[miamited]

"What" are the keys mentioned in Matthew 16:19?



My answer is, they are the sacraments.

God be gracious to me a sinner?

Hi,

I'm not going to make any dogmatic claim as regards what the keys are, but I have an idea of where you are headed with this and I'll just say that I don't understand the Scriptures as putting them in the hands of any 'church'.

Marty may very well be correct and it is something that I am going to put on my prayer list for wisdom and knowledge. We know, because the writings of Peter and John and Matthew and Mark are now included as part of the 'Scriptures', that Jesus, in his three years of living with and teaching face to face gave unto them the 'keys' to know how to find eternal life. We know, that of any human being alive in that day, that they alone had the greatest blessing of being taught at the master's feet all that God wanted them to know. Even Jesus told them that his very words were not of his knowledge and understanding, but that they had been given him by the Father.

I can certainly find support that the 'keys' spoken of here may well refer to these things that Jesus taught them that they might know, and explain to others, the way to eternal life. Just as today one might say, "Well, the 'key' to understanding how to work out the Rubik's cube is..." Jesus gave unto his disciples the 'keys', yes there is more than one truth, to eternal life.

I am not convinced that that claim was ever intended to be passed on to future generations; that now some 2,000 years later someone still has these 'keys' in their possession handed down through the centuries. I believe the 'keys', understood as a basis of knowledge, was given to the first apostles and while that knowledge was still passed on through the proclamation of the gospel, this idea that someone today still has these 'keys', apart from them just knowing, understanding and believing the same thing the apostles did, is not a part of my understanding.

I understand the same thing to apply to the binding and loosing. It was a gift given to the first apostles because Jesus knew them and understood what they knew, after all the Scriptures give evidence that he could read men's thoughts. He understood that this gift of being able to bind or loose was in good hands with them, but the working of that gift ended with their lives and their ministry. Just as we see Peter give a beggar back his legs, we can 'assume' that the first apostles had much of the same 'power' over life that Jesus had, and that power, provided by the way, through the Holy Spirit that we know they possessed from the day of Pentecost, was the same power that Jesus had to bind and loose.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[miamited]

BTW, I know I'm beginning to sound like a scratched vinyl record jumping over the same passage of a song over and over again, and for anyone that that may annoy, I offer my apologies, but...

I would once again direct you to the example of Israel in Jesus day. We are told that when Jesus was on trial before Pilate, and when Pilate asked of all the Jews standing in the courtyard to see what would happen, if he should release unto them Jesus or Barabbas, that the leaders and pharisees of the Jewish people encouraged them to cry out, "Barrabas, Barrabas. Release to us Barrabas!"

I hope that you can see the point here. It was these men who were considered the pious emmissaries of God who the people believed over God himself and His Son. Similarly, when Jesus was confronted repeatedly for breaking the Sabbath, it was the leaders and pharisees who stood before all the people and taught them that this Jesus could not possibly be the Son of the living God because he broke Sabbath. And the people, for the most part, believed the leaders and the pharisees. Is there any possibility that you too may be following the leaders and the pharisees and not Jesus?

God bless you, and you know that I care about you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[miamited]

Christ gave the keys to Peter before his death.

Christ explained the scriptures to the Apostles after his resurrection.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

You may really want to pray about that. Jesus spent over three years explaining the Scriptures to his apostles. What Jesus explained to the disciples while traveling on the road to Emmaus were only the part of the Scriptures that foretold all about him.

And yes, it was near the end of his ministry, after he had well versed them in all that they needed to know to carry on the mission for which they had been appointed before Jesus even called them each by name, that he explained that he was giving unto them the 'keys' of the kingdom. The knowledge of how one might gain eternal life.

I'm curious, is this statement that you made one of the 'proofs' that you gained from the fellowship that you associate with to prove that the 'keys to the kingdom' have been handed down through the 'church', or is this honestly something that you came up with on your own to support that position?

Again, God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Ted,

So... for you, 'knowledge' is the keys.

I hope I'm not misinterpreting your statements.

So... The Holy Spirit was not required to lead them into all knowledge?

God be gracious to me a sinner.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

You may really want to pray about that. Jesus spent over three years explaining the Scriptures to his apostles. What Jesus explained to the disciples while traveling on the road to Emmaus were only the part of the Scriptures that foretold all about him.

And yes, it was near the end of his ministry, after he had well versed them in all that they needed to know to carry on the mission for which they had been appointed before Jesus even called them each by name, that he explained that he was giving unto them the 'keys' of the kingdom. The knowledge of how one might gain eternal life.

You are correct. I was speaking of the road Emmaus. The Church teaches that this is not all he explained to them.

My point being that if the keys had been given and they were the keys to knowledge then there would be no need to explain further things to the Apostles.

You may want to pray on that. (You can stop attempting to slander me as if I do not pray.)

Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

I'm curious, is this statement that you made one of the 'proofs' that you gained from the fellowship that you associate with to prove that the 'keys to the kingdom' have been handed down through the 'church', or is this honestly something that you came up with on your own to support that position?

I rarely speak of things that I have come up with "on my own", I'm not that kind of Christian. Yes... the Churches teach these things.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

 

[Jake255]

"What" are the keys mentioned in Matthew 16:19?



My answer is, they are the sacraments.

God be gracious to me a sinner?

Hi Orthodoxy,

I might be reading too much into this, but are you saying performing the sacraments is what gets you into the Kingdom? It's not longer grace but a list of requirements?

Thanks.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Hi Orthodoxy,

I might be reading too much into this, but are you saying performing the sacraments is what gets you into the Kingdom? It's not longer grace but a list of requirements?

Thanks.

You are indeed misinterpreting what I am saying.

The sacraments are the primary dispenceries of grace.

Think of them as the large rocks in the jar.

The sand would be everything else that we practice for the sake of grace. (Personal prayers etc.)

It's not that you MUST use the rocks... grace comes in many way.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

 

[miamited]

Ted,

So... for you, 'knowledge' is the keys.

I hope I'm not misinterpreting your statements.

So... The Holy Spirit was not required to lead them into all knowledge?

God be gracious to me a sinner.

Friend, when you are sitting at the feet of Jesus you have the Holy Spirit speaking to you. The Father and the Son both have the same Spirit. And we are given assurance of this when Jesus was baptized. The Holy Spirit descended upon the Lord in a visible manner, that everyone could see that he had the Holy Spirit. John (the baptist) even testifies of this event. Yes, absolutely! The Holy Spirit is necessary for any man to understand the truth of God and we also know that before the first apostles were sent out into the world to fulfill their commission, that the Holy Spirit also came down upon them in a visible display that people then and people now would know that they had the Holy Spirit.

Now, one might argue that, "Well, then they didn't really understand all the truth of God until Pentecost." And I would give some creedence to that understanding because of the many times that Jesus rebuked them for being dull and unable to understand, but even that allows that by the time they went out and began using the 'keys' of the kingdom that Jesus had given unto them in his teaching, that they did fully understand what it was they were teaching and believing as the truth. Because they then had the indwelling Holy Spirit! This is part of my argument that we need to be very careful in accepting the words of men after these that try to tell us what it is that God desires of us. I don't have any such assurance that someone 100 years or 200 years later has the indwelling Holy Spirit to understand the things of God, as I do of the first apostles.

As a matter of fact, it was to these very men that Jesus said, "When the Holy Spirit comes to you, he will lead you into all truth." He then instructed them to wait for the Holy Spirit before they began their task of teaching and preaching the 'keys' to the kingdom. So, yes, I would agree that there may well have been some parts of Jesus' teaching to them that they may not have fully understood until the day of Pentecost, but not before they began to use the 'keys' to the kingdom that Jesus had given them that, yes, I understand was the wisdom and knowledge of the things of God that he shared with them.

I hope that you fully appreciate the time that Jesus spent with his apostles. This was not some 9 to 5 job where everybody got in their cars and went home to their families at the end of the day. This band of men traveled together, day and night, all over Israel learning at the feet of the Savior. Surely, in the evening, as they ate and readied themselves for a night's rest they spoke to one another and asked many questions and received many answers. When they traveled from town to town as a group, Jesus spoke to them of many truths and explained to them many things that other people of that day were not privey to. We have at least two times that we are told Jesus sat with his disciples privately and explained to them a parable that he had told the people.

Now, in three years, I imagine that this happened a lot!! So, yes, these men knew the truth and it had all been explained to them, but the total and complete comprehension of all that Jesus had told them may not have really sunk in and been made a part of 'who they were' until the day of Pentecost. Obviously, at the time of Jesus' trial, Peter didn't fully understand who Jesus was because he denied knowing him, but by the time Peter was martyred for his faith, I doubt that he even batted an eye or took one moment of hesitation in explaining to his persecutors that, yes, he knew Jesus and he stood with him.

God bless you.
IN Christ, Ted

 

[Yab Yum]

"What" are the keys mentioned in Matthew 16:19?

My answer is, they are the sacraments.

God be gracious to me a sinner?

The Scholastic tradition holds that the power of the keys is broadly defined, as:

• the power of order, namely power exercised in regard to sacrifice and sacrament,
• the power of jurisdiction, and
• the power to define in questions of faith and morals.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Power of the Keys

However the patristics appear to have linked the first and second sentences in that verse and therefore limited the power of the keys to the scope of penance.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

No sorry, the keys are the keys to understand scripture which has been sealed with seven seals.

Ted,

So... for you, 'knowledge' is the keys.

I hope I'm not misinterpreting your statements.

So... The Holy Spirit was not required to lead them into all knowledge?

God be gracious to me a sinner.

According to Luke 11, only one key is needed for that:

http://www.eliyah.com/lexicon.html

Blue Letter Bible - Search Results for YLT
"key"
occurs 6 times in 6 verses in the YLT

Luk 11:52
`Wo to ye, the lawyers!
because ye took away the key of the knowledge;
yeselves did not enter and those coming in, ye did hinder.'

Then there is the key of the house of David, the King of Judah:

Isa 22:22
And I have placed the key of the house of David on His shoulder,
And he hath opened, and none is shutting, And hath shut, and none is opening.

Rev 3:7
`And to the messenger of the assembly in Philadelphia write!:
These things saith He who is holy, He who is true.
He who is having the key of David, He who is opening and no one doth shut, and he shutteth and no one doth open!

 

[Jake255]

You are indeed misinterpreting what I am saying.

The sacraments are the primary dispenceries of grace.

Think of them as the large rocks in the jar.

The sand would be everything else that we practice for the sake of grace. (Personal prayers etc.)

It's not that you MUST use the rocks... grace comes in many way.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

Just to clarify, are you stating sacraments are a way in which we receive grace?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Just to clarify, are you stating sacraments are a way in which we receive grace?

Absolutely, that is their purpose.

Do you think that baptism does not impart grace?

Do you think that when we do what Christ asked, "Do this..." it does not impart grace?

God be gracious to me a sinner.

 

[Jake255]

Absolutely, that is their purpose.

Do you think that baptism does not impart grace?

Do you think that when we do what Christ asked, "Do this..." it does not impart grace?

God be gracious to me a sinner.

Obedience does impart grace.

What I am hearing you say is you believe the "keys" to be the sacraments but REALLY you believe the "keys" to be grace. We could not enter the Kingdom without grace, but we could enter the Kingdom w/out the sacraments. You just believe we have to do something in order to receive grace and your choice are the sacraments.

Accurate?

 

[miamited]

The Scholastic tradition holds that the power of the keys is broadly defined, as:

• the power of order, namely power exercised in regard to sacrifice and sacrament,
• the power of jurisdiction, and
• the power to define in questions of faith and morals.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Power of the Keys

However the patristics appear to have linked the first and second sentences in that verse and therefore limited the power of the keys to the scope of penance.

Yes, but don't you see that that is exactly the issue that is being discussed here. How do you know?

How do you know that the writings of some man 100, 200, 300 or 400 years after Jesus ascended to the Father that that man has the indwelling Holy Spirit and understands the truth? How do you know?

Do you know that because someone else, who claims to be the emmissary of God upon the earth, tells you that it is true?

Do you know this man wrote the truth because that has been the tradition handed down through the ages of your fellowship? How do you know?

You see, friend, that is exactly what the Jews had depended on and exactly what Jesus had rebuked them for following. The Jew held the priest, the scribe and the pharisee in exactly the same position of authority in regards to the things of God, that the orthodox and RCC fellowships, and others hold the pope and cardinals and bishops.

I believe that the Scriptures are clear that there is nothing outside of them that we need to know or practice or understand in order to find and obtain the promise of God's coming salvation for those who believe the truth. I believe that an individual can, with the indwelling Holy Spirit, know and understand and practice all that the Scriptures tell us we need to know and understand and practice as the way to eternal life. It doesn't require some emmissary of God upon the earth to give us correct understanding of what God desires of us. We, each and individually, may know the truth and find the way of eternal life on our own with nothing more than the Scriptures.

We fall into great and grave error, just as Israel did, when we set up as our base of knowledge what someone else tells us is the way of eternal life, and it doesn't clearly match up with Scripture.

This is the cry of your God and Creator to come out of her, my people. Know me!!!! Love me!!!!! It is not about you and a pope or you and a cardinal or you and a bishop or you and any other person, believer or not. It is about each one of us knowing, believing and following what God has painstakingly over 1500 years made knowable to us in His Scriptures. That Paul tells us are the oracles of God. That Paul tells us was the 'chief' purpose of anyone even ever being a Jew!

Individually, and on our own, we have available to us the truth. If we have any hope of understanding and comprehending it all, then we will request and seek the power of the Holy Spirit whose job it is to lead us into all truth about the things of God. It is really just that simple. When we, as an individual set our hearts to know and love and honor and obey God, we need exactly what the first apostles needed: The Indwelling Holy Spirt and the truth of our God and Creator.

God bless you as you seek Him.
In Christ, Ted

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by OrthodoxyUSA You are indeed misinterpreting what I am saying.

The sacraments are the primary dispenceries of grace

Originally Posted by Jake255 Just to clarify, are you stating sacraments are a way in which we receive grace?

Is this going to turn into a "Sacraments" thread?



.

 

[Optimax]

"What" are the keys mentioned in Matthew 16:19?



My answer is, they are the sacraments.

God be gracious to me a sinner?

Ya won't like it, but I'll tell you anyway.


When Jesus said that He would give them the keys of the kingdom.

He did not just randomly make the statement.

What He said was on the same subject that He had been discussing with them when He ask "but whom say ye that I am?"

Matt 16:15-20
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

Simon Peter answered.

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Then Jesus said that Simon Barjona did not get that wisdom or understanding from men's understanding.

Jesus said that that knowledge was revealed to Simon by God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

The "rock" as well as the keys are the same thing!

Knowledge that is revealed to man by the Holy Spirit of God, The Father.

The church is built on that revelation knowledge. Without the revelation of God's Word to man the "church", which consist of born again people would not have the knowledge and understanding to resist the devil and make the devil flee.

The revealing of God's Word to man gives man the keys of the kingdom.

The keys are the knowledge and understanding of how the kingdom operates.

Without that knowledge we could not bind anything cause we would not know how or what to bind and what to loose.

Then Jesus made a another statement concerning the subject He was speaking to them on.

The Holy Spirit revealed to Peter that Jesus was the Christ, The Son of God.

Jesus told them not to share that revelation with anyone.

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ. KJV

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Obedience does impart grace.

What I am hearing you say is you believe the "keys" to be the sacraments but REALLY you believe the "keys" to be grace. We could not enter the Kingdom without grace, but we could enter the Kingdom w/out the sacraments. You just believe we have to do something in order to receive grace and your choice are the sacraments.

Accurate?

We do not say that salvation can only be had this way... we do say that Christ left it to us and because of that, it is the best way.

There is a story, told by the bishops, about a bishop who was traveling by boat. He pulled over to a tiny island and found three natives living there worshiping an unknown god.

When they would pray, it was very simple... They said with upraised hands: "Thee are three and we are three."

The bishop thought that he might help, so he taught them the Jesus prayer.

"O Lord, Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner."

The next day he got into his boat and pulled off shore to leave.

When he was several yards from shore, the three came running out of the wood... ran across the water to his boat saying that they could not remember the words.

The bishop asked them to please go back to what they were doing and pray for him.

IOW ~ He has revealed this to us, but he loves all of mankind.

I hope that answers your question. At least from the Orthodox Christian POV.

God be gracious to me a sinner.