"What" are the keys?

[wordsoflife]

That depends, would you accept the clergy of The Church of Antioch's testimony as evidence?

Probably not. Let's stick to the bible.

 

[Jake255]

'We' are the bread that is offered. When it comes back to us it is Christ.

"Washed in the blood" literally refers to The Eucharistic action when the bread is placed in the chalice.

We as Baptists, have forgotten that.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

This is not a true sacrifice though, how can it be?

A sacrifice we offer is in and of ourselves. It is sacrificial to not do what the world is doing, we appear different to them, we give up the world for His sake.

However, I understand now how you see the Eucharist and baptism - what about the other sacraments? What do they do?

 

[seeking Christ]

The Liturgy of St. James. aka The Divine Liturgy.

What they wrote down is a very basic outline of the practices used and in what order. The deacons that had been ordained were now being tasked with the responsibility to learn and be prepared to take over the Divine services

Makes sense! Thank you

 

[Jake255]

This is not a true sacrifice though, how can it be?

A sacrifice we offer is in and of ourselves. It is sacrificial to not do what the world is doing, we appear different to them, we give up the world for His sake.

However, I understand now how you see the Eucharist and baptism - what about the other sacraments? What do they do?

I'm quoting myself here because I wanted to point out Polycarp spoke much about sacrificial living, it is all I have ever seen him write about. A person can learn a lot from him.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

This is not a true sacrifice though, how can it be?

There has been and ever will be 'ONE' sacrifice. HIS.

When we practice what HE has taught we join ourselves spiritually to the eternal sacrifice... as witnessed in Revelation.

It is a mechanism to get us to gather... and to care for one another. As we all know, salvation is of grace, and he gives it where he will.

A sacrifice we offer is in and of ourselves. It is sacrificial to not do what the world is doing, we appear different to them, we give up the world for His sake.

These are part of it too... being separated from the world.

Remember that Christ came in to humanity to save humanity. The physical was included in that. Christ wanted us to gather and to practice the things that he left to us. It was to be practiced constantly in rotating fashion, in order to teach everything. So that we would not forget.

It's brilliant!

However, I understand now how you see the Eucharist and baptism - what about the other sacraments? What do they do?

I have given you a link to another thread that discusses exactly that.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

 

[Standing Up]

But the sacraments themselves aren't the keys. You have no evidence of that. The keys are given to one so that they can perform the sacraments.

Yep. The keys to the kingdom were given to Peter. He 'turned' them. He was first and done once to Jew and Gentile upon his preaching the Good News.

 

[Standing Up]

Tertullian on the question about the keys and how someone was usurping the keys given from Christ to Peter, presuming it was given to the church broadly (or to specific popes, patriarchs, pastors):

I now inquire into your opinion, (to see) from what source you usurp this right to “the Church.”
If, because the Lord has said to Peter, “Upon this rock will I build My Church,”978978 Matt. xvi. 18. “to thee have I given the keys of the heavenly kingdom;”979979 Matt. xvi. 19 ad init., incorrectly. or, “Whatsoever thou shalt have bound or loosed in earth, shall be bound or loosed in the heavens,”980980 Matt. xvi. 19. you therefore presume that the power of binding and loosing has derived to you, that is, to every Church akin to Peter, what sort of man are you, subverting and wholly changing the manifest intention of the Lord, conferring (as that intention did) this (gift) personally upon Peter? “On thee,” He says, “will I build My Church;” and, “I will give to thee the keys,” not to the Church; and, “Whatsoever thou shalt have loosed or bound,” not what they shall have loosed or bound. For so withal the result teaches. In (Peter) himself the Church was reared; that is, through (Peter) himself; (Peter) himself essayed the key; you see what (key): “Men of Israel, let what I say sink into your ears: Jesus the Nazarene, a man destined by God for you,” and so forth.981981 Acts ii. 22 et seqq. (Peter) himself, therefore, was the first to unbar, in Christ’s baptism, the entrance to the heavenly kingdom, in which (kingdom) are “loosed” the sins that were beforetime “bound;” and those which have not been “loosed” are “bound,” in accordance with true salvation; and Ananias he “bound” with the bond of death, and the weak in his feet he “absolved” from his defect of health. Moreover, in that dispute about the observance or non-observance of the Law, Peter was the first ...
ANF04. Fathers of the Third Century: Tertullian, Part Fourth; Minucius Felix; Commodian; Origen, Parts First and Second - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Probably not. Let's stick to the bible.

hmm .. without a historical context to it .. there is no "the bible"

 

[Standing Up]

From post #107.

"you therefore presume that the power of binding and loosing has derived to you, that is, to every Church akin to Peter, what sort of man are you, subverting and wholly changing the manifest intention of the Lord, conferring (as that intention did) this (gift) personally upon Peter? “On thee,” He says, “will I build My Church;” and, “I will give to thee the keys,” not to the Church;"

Was Tertullian's interpretation of singular "thee" wrong? Didn't Peter first preach to Jew and Gentile?

If you think the keys somehow transferred to the Church akin to Peter, what's the reason for this? Do you think the door to the kingdom was closed, and your group has to reopen it from time to time?

 

[miamited]

From post #107.

"you therefore presume that the power of binding and loosing has derived to you, that is, to every Church akin to Peter, what sort of man are you, subverting and wholly changing the manifest intention of the Lord, conferring (as that intention did) this (gift) personally upon Peter? “On thee,” He says, “will I build My Church;” and, “I will give to thee the keys,” not to the Church;"

Was Tertullian's interpretation of singular "thee" wrong? Didn't Peter first preach to Jew and Gentile?

If you think the keys somehow transferred to the Church akin to Peter, what's the reason for this? Do you think the door to the kingdom was closed, and your group has to reopen it from time to time?

Hi standingup,

Good point! I hadn't ever considererd that as a very valid question to this issue. If Peter was given the keys to the kingdom, and it is somehow intended to have been meant by my Lord, as some 'physical object' by which something may be locked or unlocked, and he did use them for that purpose according to the Lord's instructions - why would they have then needed to be handed off to some following successor? Could he not have just disposed of them? That would even prevent someone from coming behind him and locking the things that the keys unlocked, back up.

If however, the keys are understood as the knowledge of the way of eternal life that Jesus gave unto Peter and all of the disciples, then those keys are still being passed down from one born again believer to the next across the generations. One born again believer who comes to the truth, with the power and wisdom of the indwelling Holy Spirit begins to understand the deeper truths of the Scriptures, the 'keys', and then hands them off to the next generation through their children or others that they have also offered the 'keys of the kingdom'.

I like that! I will seek the wisdom of the Holy Spirit on this in my next prayers and study.

Unfortunately, I think that some see these 'keys' as some power that Jesus has given to someone by which, if they hold them, they can make changes and interpretations. They can set dates and times and seasons. They can bind and loose people in their religion. I think maybe the misunderstanding may come from their believing that it is the 'keys' that give the power to bind and loose, but that, as I understand it, isn't what Jesus says. He just gives the disciples the keys to the kingdom and without even hinting that it is by some power or authority of having said keys that they also have the power to bind and loose what is on the earth and in heaven.

It certainly deserves some further study. It may well deserve a full study on its own as to whether the semi colon or colon is the proper english punctuation to be there and how it got there.

God bless you as you seek Him.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Jake255]

There has been and ever will be 'ONE' sacrifice. HIS.

This does not take anything away from Christ, when we obey this as our spiritual act of worship:

Romans 12:1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God--this is your spiritual act of worship.

Our putting to death the flesh, dying to ourselves, so that He will increase in us, presenting ourselves as Holy.

When we practice what HE has taught we join ourselves spiritually to the eternal sacrifice... as witnessed in Revelation.


It is a mechanism to get us to gather... and to care for one another. As we all know, salvation is of grace, and he gives it where he will.



These are part of it too... being separated from the world.

Remember that Christ came in to humanity to save humanity. The physical was included in that. Christ wanted us to gather and to practice the things that he left to us. It was to be practiced constantly in rotating fashion, in order to teach everything. So that we would not forget.

It's brilliant!

Jesus taught us about baptism and communion, and how we are to live.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

This does not take anything away from Christ, when we obey this as our spiritual act of worship:

Romans 12:1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God--this is your spiritual act of worship.

Our putting to death the flesh, dying to ourselves, so that He will increase in us, presenting ourselves as Holy.



Jesus taught us about baptism and communion, and how we are to live.

That's all true!

God be gracious to me a sinner.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Probably not. Let's stick to the bible.

So... we should discard all knowledge that comes to us via The Church of Antioch? The first daughter Church of Jerusalem?

Nothing? There's nothing here that you want to keep? (trash collector stands questioning?)

Not even the names of the seventy, what became of them? The names of saints that you didn't know... like the name of the woman at the well or the name of the thief on the cross?


God be gracious to me a sinner.

 

[Jake255]

That's all true!

God be gracious to me a sinner.

Of course it's all true, that's how we'll enter the Kingdom!