"What" are the keys?

[Jake255]

Try to wrap your head around this, Jake. The Sacraments are not things we have to do to earn grace. They are ways that God has promised in scripture to distribute his grace, not by our doing of the rites but because of the power of God's Word.

If you read the entire thread you would know Orthodox is saying the "keys" given to Peter are the sacraments.

 

[seeking Christ]

Why isn't denying yourself, taking up your Cross and following Him sacramental?

They are sacrificial.

But wait, we see sacraments described as being a sacrifice all the time

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

If you read the entire thread you would know Orthodox is saying the "keys" given to Peter are the sacraments.

Tangible is correct. I said they are means of distribution of grace.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

 

[Jake255]

Tangible is correct. I said they are means of distribution of grace.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

Ok.

.....and even though he may be correct in this instance, it's completely uncool for a dude to enter a thread and slam on a person when they are trying to LEARN something completely foreign to them........

..........
Established - you believe the keys are the sacraments in order for grace to be distributed.....

Where did you learn this? I see the communion and baptism - where did the other ones come from? What do each of them do for you, besides impart grace?

Thanks.

 

[Jake255]

But wait, we see sacraments described as being a sacrifice all the time

You might see it this way, but that is not what sacraments mean - they are not the same thing.

Sacrificing is giving up your own life so that He might live in us. Our lives are hidden in Christ, it is no longer us.

 

[Tangible]

Now, I don't know if the keys are limited to the Sacraments, but I don't have a problem with the Sacraments as keys.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Ok.

.....and even though he may be correct in this instance, it's completely uncool for a dude to enter a thread and slam on a person when they are trying to LEARN something completely foreign to them........

..........
Established - you believe the keys are the sacraments in order for grace to be distributed.....

Where did you learn this? I see the communion and baptism - where did the other ones come from? What do each of them do for you, besides impart grace?

Thanks.

You're not going to slam me right?

From The Church of Antioch. The one we read about in ACTS.

They come from the porch of Solomon in Jerusalem circa 33-69ad. The Church of Antioch learned it there and wrote it down. (I rather think that would have been St. Prochorus at this point.)

God be gracious to me a sinner.

 

[seeking Christ]

You might see it this way, but that is not what sacraments mean - they are not the same thing.

Sacrificing is giving up your own life so that He might live in us. Our lives are hidden in Christ, it is no longer us.

You missed my point. People tout that Eucharist is a sacrifice frequently. Therefore there should be no distinction between sacrifice and sacrament, or at least something being a sacrifice wouldn't bar it from also being a sacrament, if their logic were consistent.

And what you have described sacrifice as, how is that not a means of distributing Grace? (And therefore every bit as much a sacrament as anything else)

 

[seeking Christ]

From The Church of Antioch. The one we read about in ACTS.

They come from the porch of Solomon in Jerusalem circa 33-69ad. The Church of Antioch learned it there and wrote it down.

Wouldn't that be the Church of Jerusalem? Did the Church of Antioch write any of the Gospels while on said porch?

 

[wordsoflife]

The sacraments aren't the "keys". The keys are figurative. Don't you know what keys are? They are that which open the doors of the kingdom. Christ is saying that God has given Peter power and authority over the kingdom to open wide it's doors. Again, there are no literal keys. The keys are figurative. The keys are the power and authority over the kingdom given to Peter.

 

[Jake255]

You missed my point. People tout that Eucharist is a sacrifice frequently. Therefore there should be no distinction between sacrifice and sacrament, or at least something being a sacrifice wouldn't bar it from also being a sacrament, if their logic were consistent.

And what you have described sacrifice as, how is that not a means of distributing Grace? (And therefore every bit as much a sacrament as anything else)

What people "tout that the Eucharist is sacrificial"?
Surely not the Baptist.

Sacrifice is giving up your own life for the sake of Christ - literally living the life of Christ on earth, so that people will see Christ in you.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Wouldn't that be the Church of Jerusalem? Did the Church of Antioch write any of the Gospels while on said porch?

It was Jerusalem... does that read in a confusing way? Antioch wrote it down while visiting Jerusalem. Antioch wanted to know how it was done in Jerusalem.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

What people "tout that the Eucharist is sacrificial"?
Surely not the Baptist.

Sacrifice is giving up your own life for the sake of Christ - literally living the life of Christ on earth, so that people will see Christ in you.

'We' are the bread that is offered. When it comes back to us it is Christ.

"Washed in the blood" literally refers to The Eucharistic action when the bread is placed in the chalice.

We as Baptists, have forgotten that.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

The sacraments aren't the "keys". The keys are figurative. Don't you know what keys are? They are that which open the doors of the kingdom. Christ is saying that God has given Peter power and authority over the kingdom to open wide it's doors. Again, there are no literal keys. The keys are figurative. The keys are the power and authority over the kingdom given to Peter.

The sacraments were the thing that St. Peter was given the authority to perform. The ceremony we see is the act of ordination. The giving of a new name and the authority to present the gospel message. (Feed my sheep.)

Sacraments.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

 

[seeking Christ]

It was Jerusalem... does that read in a confusing way? Antioch wrote it down while visiting Jerusalem. Antioch wanted to know how it was done in Jerusalem.

Ok, but what is this "it" that Antioch wrote down? And specifically how does this compare to the first writing of the Gospels?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Ok, but what is this "it" that Antioch wrote down? And specifically how does this compare to the first writing of the Gospels?

The Liturgy of St. James. aka The Divine Liturgy.

What they wrote down is a very basic outline of the practices used and in what order. The deacons that had been ordained were now being tasked with the responsibility to learn and be prepared to take over the Divine services (the liturgy) as the "glove of the Bishop".

If you're looking for one there is a very nice one on Google Books for free that has the 'interpolations and additions of time' removed.

https://play.google.com/store/books...ch_The_Ancient_Liturgy_of_the?id=ZLFLAAAAMAAJ

God be gracious to me a sinner.

 

[Jake255]

You're not going to slam me right?

Not me, only people over 40 do that...oh, wait...

From The Church of Antioch. The one we read about in ACTS.

They come from the porch of Solomon in Jerusalem circa 33-69ad. The Church of Antioch learned it there and wrote it down. (I rather think that would have been St. Prochorus at this point.)

God be gracious to me a sinner.

Why did they not talk about it in Acts? Why was it not until after that new instruction came?

Thanks.

 

[wordsoflife]

The sacraments were the thing that St. Peter was given the authority to perform. The ceremony we see is the act of ordination. The giving of a new name and the authority to present the gospel message. (Feed my sheep.)

But the sacraments themselves aren't the keys. You have no evidence of that. The keys are given to one so that they can perform the sacraments.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Not me, only people over 40 do that...oh, wait...


Why did they not talk about it in Acts? Why was it not until after that new instruction came?

Thanks.

Actually they did... it's just that they talked about pieces and parts that we did not know were a part of a whole.

Perhaps this thread would be of interest to you.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7708705/

Oh no... I just pulled an LLOJ? What in the world have you done to me Steve?

God be gracious to me a sinner.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

But the sacraments aren't the keys. You have no evidence of that.

That depends, would you accept the clergy of The Church of Antioch's testimony as evidence?

God be gracious to me a sinner.