What ARE The Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven anyhow?

[OrthodoxyUSA]

It says what? I will give you the keys to the Kingdom... and wasnt it Peter who says "an entrance" will be ministered "unto you" into the Kingdom?

If He had the keys (after this manner) in relation to the Kingdom how do others understand Peter saying to them that an entrance shall be "ministered unto them" into the Kingdom (as well)? Now its not literally "keys" (spiritual ones) but so is "the entrance" given it is a "ministered" one.


One set of keys speak of binding and losing, Jesus is shown having the Keys of David in Revelation. He has the keys of death and hell. Jesus has the power which pertains to "opening" what ~no man~ "can shut" which appears to be consistent with "the entrance" (that shall be ministered unto one) sounds much like "I set before thee an open door" (wouldnt require keys huh?) given the door that is opened is set before one (an entrance).

Ugh, I cant think... its late see ya's in the morning

Ministered in greek is "leitorgia", which is translated in english to Liturgy.

From a thread in TAW...

For the first 1500 years there was (and still is really) only one central Worship Service.. It is known as the Divine Liturgy. The word liturgy means "works".

The Liturgy of a Bishop during worship, is different from the Liturgy of a Priest... is different from the Liturgy of a Deacon... is different from the Liturgy of the laity... etc etc

The collective of all these in Divine Worship is called The Divine Liturgy. Each having his or her own part. We are not bystanders in Worship, but participants.

The other services, Vespers, Compline, Matins, 1st, 3rd, 6th 9th hours, revolve around and lead up to The Divine Liturgy. "Seven times a day will I pray to Thee O Lord."

Modern "contemporary" services are the abandonment of the ancient Liturgical Worship Services as taught to the Apostles by Christ and handed down to us.

A 1st century Christian would not recognize "contemporary" services as being Worship.

One set of keys speak of binding and losing, Jesus is shown having the Keys of David in Revelation. He has the keys of death and hell. Jesus has the power which pertains to "opening" what ~no man~ "can shut" which appears to be consistent with "the entrance" (that shall be ministered unto one) sounds much like "I set before thee an open door" (wouldnt require keys huh?) given the door that is opened is set before one (an entrance).

Again we must not confuse "power" with "authority". God has the power, and clearly gives authority.

Forgive me...

 

[Fireinfolding]

Ministered in greek is "leitorgia", which is translated in english to Liturgy.

From a thread in TAW...

Yeah but the words in that verse is
epichorēgeō

2Peter 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered
epichorēgeō unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

I (personally) still connect it to the entrance of thy words "giveth light" which makes sense to me. Unless one is born again they cannot "see" the Kingdom of God and its in His light do we see light. In reference to the light that now shines (evidenced by the love of God) in one. A translating from the power of darkness into His marvelous light... contrasts as well with hatred (darkness, death) verses love (light, life).

Again we must not confuse "power" with "authority". God has the power, and clearly gives authority.

Forgive me...

You are forgiven, because Christ is the power of God

The word power or authority was in relation to Jesus setting an open door before them. It was in the context of what I was speaking of, and it was an english word cause I wasnt even quoting a verse which has that particular word in it I was mentioning that verse my own words to "connect the sentences" with better flow

See for yourself

Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

Christ Himself is the power of God who will open and shut what he will there

Someone got up on the wrong side of the bed

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Ummm.... I don't follow the Pope.

Again we must not confuse "power" with "authority". God has the power, and clearly gives authority

Forgive me...

Why follow the "Old" when the "New" is better, eh?
[And yes, you are forgiven LOL]

http://www.scripture4all.org/
[Good greek/hebrew interlinear. but uses the W-H MS [which the NIV uses] so I compare it to the BMT and TR MSS. Fun].

Hebrews 8:13 in the to be saying `New/kainhn <2537>,' He hath made old/pepalaiwken <3822> the first/former. The yet being aged/palaioumenon <3822> and being obsolete/ghraskon <1095> [is] nigh/egguV <1451> of disappearance/afanismou <854>

Luke 5:37 "And no one is casting Young Wine into Old/palaiouV <3820>Vessels, if yet no surely shall be ruined the Wine, the Young, of the vessels, and it shall be being poured-out and its vessel shall be perishing.
38 but Young/neon <3501>Wine into New/kainouV <2537> Vessels is to be cast and both are preserved together.
39 and no one driking Old immediately is willing Young, for he is saying, 'for the the Old is kind/mellow'".

neos(Strong's 3501) occurs 24 times in 20 verses:
AV - new 11, younger 7, young man 2, new man 1, young women 1, younger man 1, young 1; 24
3501. neos neh'-os including the comparative neoteros neh-o'-ter-os; a primary word; "new", i.e. (of persons) youthful, or (of things) fresh; figuratively, regenerate:--new, young.

kainos (Strong's 2537) occurs 44 times in 38 verses:
AV - new 44; 44
2537. kainos kahee-nos' of uncertain affinity; new (especially in freshness; while 3501 is properly so with respect to age:--new.

http://foru.ms/t6016491-you-dare-say-the-ot-is-done-away.html
you-dare-say-the-ot-is-done-away.

 

[Trento]

...






Again we must not confuse "power" with "authority". God has the power, and clearly gives authority.

Forgive me...

Jesus is THE AUTHORITY when it comes to the definition and instruction of Faith. He is the Master, the Teacher, the Chief Theologian, the Doctor of Theology and Philosophy

- However, He is notably absent on a long business trip, pertaining to other matters - namely, occupying the seat at the right hand of the Father in heaven. But, He will return.

- In His absence - He has entrusted His authority in those here on earth that could continue the role of discerning and defining Faith. This authority includes the authority to make decisions on His behalf and to enact policy (doctrine), practice - just as Jesus would, if He was not away. These people were "deputized" (i. e. - vicar) to act in this manner for the Body of Christ (His "company", of which we are all gainfully employed) until His return. Peter was chief deputy.

- In my opinion - this model of conveyance and delegation of authority is practically identical to how it is enacted in businesses - big and small - everywhere. And yet, when this same model - so clearly described and layed out in Scriptures (the "by-laws) - is presented to the "employees" of the company - many reject it - figuring that while the "Boss" is away - the employees should formulate their own policy and basically do whatever they think they can get away with, given their tortured interpretations of the "by-laws".

If I delegated the authority in my business to those that I trust - and the other employees rejected that delegation and practiced anarchy - I would fire them upon my return, especially if the objectives of the company were not met, due to the anarchist actions of the workers.

It is a fact that some people were left in charge and were entrusted with the message left by Christ. Jesus left no diary or journal - every word that we ever read that came from our Savior's mouth has come to us via the hearing of those words by a deputy, who decided to write them down (given the authority to do so, the help to do so, and the mission or objective of Faith - by Christ).

It is frustrating sometimes that people disconnect Faith so far from every-day activities and situations, in which we all participate in without question - but some how it is different and all the rules change when we are talking about God. They don't.

The very essence here is the recognition of the Authority of Christ and the fact that He delegated some of His authority to those here on earth - who have been passing that mission and role in succession for 2,000 years now.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Jesus is THE AUTHORITY when it comes to the definition and instruction of Faith. He is the Master, the Teacher, the Chief Theologian, the Doctor of Theology and Philosophy

Correctomundo!!!!!

http://www.scripture4all.org/

eiselqein <1525> (5629) This form of the greek word used 37 times and only 1 time in Revelation

Matthew 12:29 `Or how is one able to be into-coming/eiselqein <1525> (5629) into the House of the strong-one, and the goods/skeuh <4632> of him to catch-away, if ever no first he should be binding/dhsh <1210> (5661) the strong-one? And then his house he shall be plundering/diarpasei <1283> (5692).

Reve 15:8 And is dense, the sanctuary, of smoke out of the glory of the God and out of the power of Him and no one was able to be into-coming/eiselqein <1525> (5629) into the Sanctuary until should be being consummated the seven stripes of the seven messengers.

 

[BigNorsk]

God gave his keys to the church. It is none other than his word.

There are two basic divisions of God's Word, some is law and some is gospel.

The law condemns us, it shows us our sinfulness, our need of saving. This is the key that binds.

The gospel saves us, it releases us from our sins, it frees us. This is the key that looses.

Marv

 

[sunlover1]

- However, He is notably absent on a long business trip, pertaining to other matters - namely, occupying the seat at the right hand of the Father in heaven. But, He will return.

- In His absence - He has entrusted His authority in those here on earth that could continue the role of discerning and defining Faith. This authority includes the authority to make decisions on His behalf and to enact policy (doctrine), practice - just as Jesus would, if He was not away. These people were "deputized" (i. e. - vicar) to act in this manner for the Body of Christ (His "company", of which we are all gainfully employed) until His return. Peter was chief deputy.

But when He left He specifically said that He would send the Spirit, and that it was better for us.

- In my opinion - this model of conveyance and delegation of authority is practically identical to how it is enacted in businesses - big and small - everywhere. And yet, when this same model - so clearly described and layed out in Scriptures (the "by-laws) - is presented to the "employees" of the company - many reject it - figuring that while the "Boss" is away - the employees should formulate their own policy and basically do whatever they think they can get away with, given their tortured interpretations of the "by-laws".

Where are the bylaws you're referring to?
Because Jesus did make it very clear that
1. He was leaving
2 He would send another.

If I delegated the authority in my business to those that I trust - and the other employees rejected that delegation and practiced anarchy - I would fire them upon my return, especially if the objectives of the company were not met, due to the anarchist actions of the workers.

Not following those whom you perceive to have turned away
from the truth is anarchy?
IMO, not obeying God and His Word would fit that bill.

It is a fact that some people were left in charge and were entrusted with the message left by Christ.

Yes, we, his church were left in charge.
WE've been given power from on High.

And we screw up, JUST like these guys did.

20 Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?
21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

Jesus left no diary or journal - every word that we ever read that came from our Savior's mouth has come to us via the hearing of those words by a deputy, who decided to write them down (given the authority to do so, the help to do so, and the mission or objective of Faith - by Christ).

They were the 'instruments' in the master hand
werent they?

It is frustrating sometimes that people disconnect Faith so far from every-day activities and situations, in which we all participate in without question - but some how it is different and all the rules change when we are talking about God. They don't.

I am not following your line of thought here.
But it seems some things are truly opposite when
it comes to the Kingdom of God.
Give to get
Die to live

The very essence here is the recognition of the Authority of Christ and the fact that He delegated some of His authority to those here on earth - who have been passing that mission and role in succession for 2,000 years now

YES.
We have 'authority' in His Name.

God gave his keys to the church. It is none other than his word.

There are two basic divisions of God's Word, some is law and some is gospel.

The law condemns us, it shows us our sinfulness, our need of saving. This is the key that binds.

The gospel saves us, it releases us from our sins, it frees us. This is the key that looses.

Marv

Thank you Marv.
Another good discussion.

 

[Cribstyl]

God gave his keys to the church. It is none other than his word.

There are two basic divisions of God's Word, some is law and some is gospel.

The law condemns us, it shows us our sinfulness, our need of saving. This is the key that binds.

The gospel saves us, it releases us from our sins, it frees us. This is the key that looses.

Marv

Sheeze.... The Holy Spirit prompt me to post that revelation last week but I sputtered and got busy...You're right on Marv.

To think that Peter's keys was for another type of Levitical priesthood make no gospel sense.
To think that the keys of the Kingdom excludes all but 1 person per generation is bad news.


According to the Gospel, Jesus gave the apostles authority to preach, authority over demons, sickness, desease, but never over people. The annointing gave them power to preach and teach but they were stoned and killed as men having no authority over any men.

To think that when Peter wrote about His death "as the Lord shown him," that he meant was assume a calling over the Church at Rome is unthinkable.
2Pe 1:12Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know [them], and be established in the present truth.
2Pe 1:13Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting [you] in remembrance;
2Pe 1:14Knowing that shortly I must put off [this] my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.


CRIB

 

[Oblio]

To think that Peter's keys was for another type of Levitical priesthood make no gospel sense.

Not only does it make no sense, but it is a Strawman. How about we debate what others actually believe rather than manufacturing something that we know we can tear down with Scripture ?

 

[Cribstyl]

Not only does it make no sense, but it is a Strawman. How about we debate what others actually believe rather than manufacturing something that we know we can tear down with Scripture ?

Well.........Post what Catholics believe about the key to the kingdom in Matt 16:18,19.... that we may reason together. I'm not a hater....I love all of God's people. His word I'd like to redeem above the smoke and mirrors of any mans religon.
-----------------------------------------------------

Tell me this......
Vicarius Filii Dei (Latin: Vicar or Representative of the Son of God)..................

Who among men was given authority as a representative (substitute) of Jesus Christ.?


CRIB

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Well.........Post what Catholics believe about the key to the kingdom in Matt 16:18,19.... that we may reason together. I'm not a hater....I love all of God's people. His word I'd like to redeem above the smoke and mirrors of any mans religon.
-----------------------------------------------------

Tell me this......
Vicarius Filii Dei (Latin: Vicar or Representative of the Son of God)..................

Who among men was given authority as a representative (substitute) of Jesus Christ.?


CRIB

Ummm.... Oblio is not Catholic... he is Orthodox.

We do not follow the Pope... we do not have a Vicar.

Forgive me....

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

no post............

 

[Oblio]

Well.........Post what Catholics believe about the key to the kingdom in Matt 16:18,19.... that we may reason together. I'm not a hater....I love all of God's people. His word I'd like to redeem above the smoke and mirrors of any mans religon.

See my sig

As OUSA noted, I'm not RC so I have no dog in this fight, actually, we disagree with the RCC with the place of Peter and his successors. However, that doesn't mean that we should speak for what their beliefs are, only they can do that. And we certainly should not misrepresent their beliefs. I'm willing to be corrected on anything that I may have misunderstood regarding their doctrine. Are you ?

 

[Cribstyl]

Ummm.... Oblio is not Catholic... he is Orthodox.

We do not follow the Pope... we do not have a Vicar.

Forgive me....

Shoot first apologies comes later.

Thanks O..dox
(just kidding)
CRIB

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Shoot first apologies comes later.

BANG!

Halt, or I'll shoot!

LOL!

Forgive me...

 

[Cribstyl]

See my sig

As OUSA noted, I'm not RC so I have no dog in this fight, actually, we disagree with the RCC with the place of Peter and his successors. However, that doesn't mean that we should speak for what their beliefs are, only they can do that. And we certainly should not misrepresent their beliefs. I'm willing to be corrected on anything that I may have misunderstood regarding their doctrine. Are you ?

You're correct but let God's word be true.

Could you imagine an email from God....

"Gone fishing, Peter's in charge of the shop and whoever he appoints thereafter."


CRIB

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Did anyone notice the plural of the reign of the "heavens" here?
Interestingly, the same type of symbolism is used in Matt 13. Who would the "violent ones" be symbolizing? Thoughts?

http://foru.ms/t6016491-you-dare-say-the-ot-is-done-away.html
you-dare-say-the-ot-is-done-away.

Matthew 11:12 `Yet from the days of John the Baptist till now, the Reign of the Heavens doth suffer violence, and violent-ones are snatching away/arpazousin <726> (5719) Her,

Matthew 13:19 Of every one hearing the Word/logon <3056>of the Reign, and no understanding--is coming the Evil-one, and is snatching away/arpazei<726> (5719) the having been sown in the Heart of him; this is the-one beside the way being sown.

 

[Veritas]

Well.........Post what Catholics believe about the key to the kingdom in Matt 16:18,19.... that we may reason together. I'm not a hater....I love all of God's people. His word I'd like to redeem above the smoke and mirrors of any mans religon.
-----------------------------------------------------

Tell me this......
Vicarius Filii Dei (Latin: Vicar or Representative of the Son of God)..................

Who among men was given authority as a representative (substitute) of Jesus Christ.?


CRIB

"Representative" and "subsitute" are two different words. Don't confuse the them.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

"Representative" and "subsitute" are two different words. Don't confuse the them.

Kind of like Jesus[represenatative] and the OC Priesthood [substitute]

John 11:48 "If we let Him alone like this, everyone will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and snatch -away Us and the Place and the Nation."

Hebrews 7:12 for the Priesthood being changed, of necessity also, of Law a change doth come,

 

[Trento]

But when He left He specifically said that He would send the Spirit, and that it was better for us.


Where are the bylaws you're referring to?
Because Jesus did make it very clear that
1. He was leaving
2 He would send another.


Not following those whom you perceive to have turned away
from the truth is anarchy?
IMO, not obeying God and His Word would fit that bill.


Yes, we, his church were left in charge.
WE've been given power from on High.

.

One of the biggest problems Protestants have with the Roman Catholic Church is the requirement for obedience. One God, one Son, one Spirit, one Church. Christ did not create a fragmented Church. That was a creation of man.
"But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth." 1 Timothy 3:15 What is interesting here is that Paul calls the Church the pillar and foundation of truth. Of course the scripture is important, but it is the Church that leads us. To resist the Church is to resist truth. When someone sets themselves up to interpret the scripture outside Church teaching, they are setting themselves above the Church. The next scripture passage explains the importance of obedience to the authority, which includes the Church.
"Let every person be subordinate to the higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been established by God. Therefore, whoever resists authority opposes what God has appointed, and those who oppose it will bring judgment upon themselves." Romans 13:1-2
This passage should be frightening to those who do not submit to the Authority of the Church. When Christ founded the Church and commissioned its leaders, he granted them the authority necessary to fulfill its mission. So when we, in an independent spirit, decide that we can do it without the Church, we are in fact bringing judgment upon ourselves.
This next passage also tells us about obedience to the Church.

"Obey your leaders and defer to them, for they keep watch over you and will have to give an account, that they may fulfill their task with joy and not with sorrow, for that would be of no advantage to you." Hebrews 13:17

"Then Jesus approached and said to them, 'All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.' " Matthew 28:18-20
Jesus commanded the Apostles to go forth and teach, not go forth and distribute Bibles and let the people figure it out for themselves. Every time I think about the fundamentalist approach to faith, I think about the widely used phrase "lost sheep." How frightening it must be to be handed a Bible and expected to understand it.

so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the principalities and authorities in the heavens." Ephesians 3:10
Faith is made know to all through the Church.
We belong to God, and anyone who knows God listens to us, while anyone who does not belong to God refuses to hear us. This is how we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit." 1 John 4:6
Anyone who does not belong to God does not listen to us.