What ARE The Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven anyhow?

squint · Sep 21, 2007

JacktheCatholic said:
Jesus equated sins to debts. Our debts...

SIN is another way of saying we have rejected God. Sin is evil because it is an attempt to distance or remove ourselves from God. Only by being as Jesus is can we stay close to God. God does everything for us and it is through our will that we push God away. So we must learn to be as Jesus and in so doing we allow God to be close to us and cause change in our hearts.

If you can engage sometime, let me know.

enjoy!

squint

JacktheCatholic · Sep 21, 2007

squint said:
Were "just man" the only activity going on in the flesh Jack, I would have to agree, but in the light of the sufficiency of Gods Grace to all mankind in Christ, I am compelled to look to the most obvious other parties IN the flesh that perform ALL SIN, that being the DEVIL AND HIS MESSENGERS if I do not want to "count sins" against my fellow man. I can say in Truth that mankind are THEIR SLAVES in flesh and mind.

Demons are but fallen angels and thus they are spirit and not flesh. Becasue they are spirit they do not have flesh demons cannot be in the flesh. They can steal our flesh if God allows it. But they have no control over us except that which God allows for a higher purpose.

JacktheCatholic · Sep 21, 2007

squint said:
If you can engage sometime, let me know.

enjoy!

squint

I do not understand what you mean by 'engage'?

squint · Sep 21, 2007

JacktheCatholic said:
Demons are but fallen angels and thus they are spirit and not flesh. Becasue they are spirit they do not have flesh demons cannot be in the flesh.

Well, just "what" was the sin indwelling Paul and the "evil present" with him that was NOT HIM?

I mean after all Jack, even the Catholics accept the existence of demonic entities IN mankind.

They can steal our flesh if God allows it.

And you would now appear to have a contradiction on your hands.

But they have no control over us

I might agree if mankind were sinless in flesh and mind, but alas, that DAY has not yet arrived and those who commit sin do so as being OF THE DEVIL.

except that which God allows for a higher purpose.

Satan "entered" Judas.

enjoy!

squint

JacktheCatholic · Sep 21, 2007

squint said:
Well, just "what" was the sin indwelling Paul and the "evil present" with him that was NOT HIM?

I am not saying Paul did not have a demon causing him trouble. I know he did. I know Paul asked God to remove the demon IF God would BUT Paul was willing to suffer with the demon if God so chose.

This is because we can be strongest when we are our weakest and this is what Paul said (in my humble opinion).

squint · Sep 21, 2007

JacktheCatholic said:
I am not saying Paul did not have a demon causing him trouble. I know he did. I know Paul asked God to remove the demon IF God would BUT Paul was willing to suffer with the demon if God so chose.

Just another "case in point" Jack. Just because God has chosen us ALL to be bound "in darkness" does not mean that we as His children ARE that darkness. We are asked to SHINE in it's midst, and at least in that way, we "prove" ourselves as HIS eh?

This is because we can be strongest when we are our weakest and this is what Paul said (in my humble opinion).

I don't disagree. What I do have a problem with is condemning mankind for sins and counting sins against THEM when there are obviously more "things" going on in "the flesh and minds" than just "mankind," dig?

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation

Obviously within "organized religion" the observance of the demonic in the flesh doesn't sell very well, or if it does, it's a circus freak show with a microphone and an audience.

The facts of these matters are and remain that he who commits sin is OF THE DEVIL and we should not responsibly count those sins against our fellow man, but advise them of this reality and the slaveship that resides therein.

Jesus never came to condemn the captives of sin for sin.

YET whenever you go to organized religion they will beat your sin upon your back, and they will never lift a finger to ease that burden, or DIVIDE you as Gods offspring from it. The workings of sin in mankind have not changed much in the last few thousand years eh?

enjoy!

squint

JacktheCatholic · Sep 21, 2007

squint said:
What I do have a problem with is condemning mankind for sins and counting sins against THEM when there are obviously more "things" going on in "the flesh and minds" than just "mankind," dig?

If you mean original sin then you are right. Jesus made it possible for original sin not to be held against us any longer.

But we still account for our sins after baptism...

MATTHEW 18
32 His master summoned him and said to him, 'You wicked servant! I forgave you your entire debt because you begged me to. 33 Should you not have had pity on your fellow servant, as I had pity on you?' 34 Then in anger his master handed him over to the torturers until he should pay back the whole debt.35 So will my heavenly Father do to you, unless each of you forgives his brother from his heart."

When we pray the "Our Father" we best pray when we have forgiven everyone that has sinned against us because we are asking our Lord to forgive us inthe same way. And when we speak of sin we can equate it as a debt. A debt becasue our sins do harm to others and so we owe these others for oour trespasses. Just as when we sin we do harm to ourselves because we push God away, spiritually speaking.

MATTHEW 6
9 "This is how you are to pray: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, 10 your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as in heaven. 11 Give us today our daily bread; 12 and forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors; 13 and do not subject us to the final test, but deliver us from the evil one. 14 If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions.

"Forgive us our debts" or we can say "forgive us our sins".

Fireinfolding · Sep 21, 2007

This one is kool

Acts 16:16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:

I always thought it was interesting that a spirit (needing to come out of one) would manifest in this particular way...

Acts 16:17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.

She was pumping THEM as MEN OF GOD (servants of the MOST HIGH GOD) which DO SHOW the way of salvation.

Amazing huh?

She needed a ghost buster

Acts 16:18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.

Acts 16:19 And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew them into the marketplace unto the rulers,

My question (I'm not getting yet) is IF she did THAT for many days advertising THEM (as men of God) what was the gains of ~her masters~ through doing just this?

No one would ever suspect a spirit saying, "Hey Paul and Silas are wonderful MEN OF GOD, they rock and come to show us THE WAY of SALVATION" (of all things).

Boggles the mind dont it?

JacktheCatholic · Sep 21, 2007

Fireinfolding said:
She needed a ghost buster

Or priest for possession...

Fireinfolding · Sep 21, 2007

JacktheCatholic said:
Or priest for possession...

Well it sure can be SONS of a Jew (who was chief of the priests) huh?

Acts 19:13 Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, ~took upon them~ to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.

Acts 19:14 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.

Acts 19:15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; ~but~ who are ye?

Acts 19:16 the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

It appears in this VERY THING the Lords NAME was MAGNIFIED in it FAILING through those who tried to INVOKE IT to "cast out demons IN HIS NAME"

I'm thinking them demons gotta "know ya". They appeared very familiar with Jesus and Paul (he said he KNEW THEM). I highly doubt either one of them would have been leaped on, overcome or prevailed against by the man with an evil spirit, do you?

Why do you think invoking the name of Jesus who Paul preaches (in truth) and was invoked (failing them) actually magified the very name of the Lord?

Interesting, isnt it? I love this stuff!

squint · Sep 21, 2007

JacktheCatholic said:
If you mean original sin then you are right. Jesus made it possible for original sin not to be held against us any longer.

Original sin eh? Look, the intent of sin's indwelling presence is to MASK itself as YOU as a child of God and YOU only, and your fellow man even more.

Evil will find a myriad of ways to "count sins" and to continue to "count sins" against everyone and everything EXCEPT the cause, THE DEVIL. If you insist on "counting" then I recognize where that action comes from, and don't blame you. get it?

But we still account for our sins after baptism...

While we are asked not to "yield" our "members" to sin, that in no way means we are ridding our flesh or minds of "their" presence. You don't walk away from the bread and wine or the confessional "free" of the presence of indwelling sin, whether it's actions can be viewed openly or NOT.

MATTHEW 18
32 His master summoned him and said to him, 'You wicked servant! I forgave you your entire debt because you begged me to. 33 Should you not have had pity on your fellow servant, as I had pity on you?' 34 Then in anger his master handed him over to the torturers until he should pay back the whole debt.35 So will my heavenly Father do to you, unless each of you forgives his brother from his heart."

When we pray the "Our Father" we best pray when we have forgiven everyone that has sinned against us because we are asking our Lord to forgive us inthe same way.

There is forgiveness unto mankind and for believers, as we have an "Advocate." The devil and his messengers DO NOT and will not have that same forgiveness or that Advocate. Therein is the division yet again.

And when we speak of sin we can equate it as a debt. A debt becasue our sins do harm to others and so we owe these others for oour trespasses. Just as when we sin we do harm to ourselves because we push God away, spiritually speaking.

MATTHEW 6
9 "This is how you are to pray: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, 10 your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as in heaven. 11 Give us today our daily bread; 12 and forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors; 13 and do not subject us to the final test, but deliver us from the evil one. 14 If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions.

"Forgive us our debts" or we can say "forgive us our sins".

Perhaps you need to contemplate our conversations a bit longer. Your insistance on laying these things upon your fellow man still resides in your hands inspite of your intended forgiveness. You have not even TOUCHED the other parties to the actions of sin and therefore you have nowhere else to go but to your self and those you are to love.

enjoy!

squint

Fireinfolding · Sep 21, 2007

Hey Squint, wanna take on the post above this one?

Its your favorite kind Take a peek

Heres the link (edited in)
"Punishment awaits you." - Foru.ms Forums

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 21, 2007

Fireinfolding said:
Well it sure can be SONS of a Jew (who was chief of the priests) huh?

Acts 19:13 Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, ~took upon them~ to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.

Acts 19:14 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.

Acts 19:15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; ~but~ who are ye?

Acts 19:16 the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

It appears in this VERY THING the Lords NAME was MAGNIFIED in it FAILING through those who tried to INVOKE IT to "cast out demons IN HIS NAME"

I'm thinking them demons gotta "know ya". They appeared very familiar with Jesus and Paul (he said he KNEW THEM). I highly doubt either one of them would have been leaped on, overcome or prevailed against by the man with an evil spirit, do you?

Why do you think invoking the name of Jesus who Paul preaches (in truth) and was invoked (failing them) actually magified the very name of the Lord?

Interesting, isnt it? I love this stuff!

I love that story!!!!! Everyone seems to be after Jesus and Paul, especially "you know who">

John 18:29 Went forth then the Pilate toward them , and said, "What Accusation/kathgorian <2724> do Ye bring against the Man, this-one"?
30 They answered and said to him, "If He were not an evil doer, not ever this-one to thee we have delivered Him.'
31 Saying then to them, the Pilate, "Take Him yee-selves and according to the Law of Ye judge Him";' Saying then the Judeans, "lawful not it is to be killing no-one;'

Acts 23:27 The man [Paul], this-one, having been taken by the Judeans, and being about to be killed/anaireisqai <337> by them--having come with the soldiery, I rescue, having learned that he is a Roman;
29 whom I found Accused/kathgorian <2724>concerning questions of The Law of them, not yet worthy of death/qanatou <2288> or of bonds accusation/egklhma <1462> having;

Fireinfolding · Sep 21, 2007

LittleLambofJesus said:
I love that story!!!!! Everyone seems to be after Jesus and Paul, especially "you know who">

John 18:29 Went forth then the Pilate toward them , and said, "What Accusation/kathgorian <2724> do Ye bring against the Man, this-one"?
30 They answered and said to him, "If He were not an evil doer, not ever this-one to thee we have delivered Him.'
31 Saying then to them, the Pilate, "Take Him yee-selves and according to the Law of Ye judge Him";' Saying then the Judeans, "lawful not it is to be killing no-one;'

Acts 23:27 The man [Paul], this-one, having been taken by the Judeans, and being about to be killed/anaireisqai <337> by them--having come with the soldiery, I rescued him, having learned that he is a Roman;
29 whom I found Accused/kathgorian <2724>concerning questions of The Law of them, not yet worthy of death/qanatou <2288> or bonds accursation/egklhma <1462> having;

This is kool with "accuser" speaks to our good conscience

Mat 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, ~then~ the kingdom of God is come unto you.

John 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

John 8:10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and ~saw none~ but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

The FINGER of God is the Spirit of God. Its not a good thing to POINT the FINGER

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 21, 2007

Fireinfolding said:
This is kool with "accuser" speaks to our good conscience

Mat 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, ~then~ the kingdom of God is come unto you.

John 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

John 8:10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and ~saw none~ but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

The FINGER of God is the Spirit of God. Its not a good thing to POINT the FINGER

Remember that thread on John 8 and Daniel 5? Might be time to "resurrect" it.

http://www.christianforums.com/t4724863&page=4

John 8:6 And this they said, trying Him, that they might have to accuse Him. And Jesus, having stooped down, with the Finger He was Writing on the Ground.
7 And when they continued asking Him, having bent Himself back, He said unto them, `The sinless of you--let him first cast the STONE at Her.
8 And Again having stooped down, He was Writing on the Ground,

Daniel 5:24 "Then the Fingers of the Hand were sent from Him, and this Writing was Written. 25 " And this is the inscription that was Written: mene', mene', t@qal , p@rac. 26 "This [is] the interpretation of [each] word. mene'
: 'Elahh has numbered your kingdom, and finished it;
27 "t@qal :You have been weighed in the balances, and found wanting;
28 "p@rac: Your kingdom has been divided, and given to the 04076 Maday ["Mid Land"] and 06540 Parac["Pure"]."

squint · Sep 21, 2007

Fireinfolding said:
Hey Squint, wanna take on the post above this one?

Its your favorite kind Take a peek

Heres the link (edited in)
"Punishment awaits you." - Foru.ms Forums

Some things in mankind's flesh take great de-light in vaunting the eternal torture of their fellow man in fire.

When the Good News comes to such, those things in the flesh become even more enraged. It's just a fact.

I don't mind dialog with reasonable people who are of faith which WORKS THROUGH LOVE and they also know that we are to love ALL of our fellow man. Loving them does not equate to a "warning" that they will be burned alive forever by the very God who supposedly LOVES them.

The devils in the flesh bore me to tears, as they are SO utterly predictable and shamelessly inconsistent with The Word, but WHAT DO WE EXPECT TO FIND?

The difficulty is that in most places the moderators will not understand what is transpiring with such, as it gets sooooo UGLY when Gods UNEQUIVOCAL Love comes to mankind, particularly when coupled with the message of ETERNAL DAMNATION to all devils.

The time is far spent and the day of our salvation is close at Hand.

enjoy!

squint

JacktheCatholic · Sep 21, 2007

squint said:
Original sin eh? Look, the intent of sin's indwelling presence is to MASK itself as YOU as a child of God and YOU only, and your fellow man even more.

have you heard of the Gnostics?

I have read and heard that they believed the flesh was evil and that is where the evil was. Sounds a bit like what you are saying with "indwelling". If I am wrong please correct me and try to make your view clear.

Otherwise, please look up the Gnostics and their beliefs and see if it compares to yours. Let me know...

Fireinfolding · Sep 21, 2007

JacktheCatholic said:
have you heard of the Gnostics?

I have read and heard that they believed the flesh was evil and that is where the evil was. Sounds a bit like what you are saying with "indwelling". If I am wrong please correct me and try to make your view clear.

Otherwise, please look up the Gnostics and their beliefs and see if it compares to yours. Let me know...

Is Paul a big bad gnostic because he wrote NO GOOD thing IN THE FLESH (and EVIL is PRESENT IN ME)

Romans 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing

Peace

Fireinfolding

JacktheCatholic · Sep 21, 2007

Fireinfolding said:
Is Paul a big bad gnostic because he wrote NO GOOD thing IN THE FLESH (and EVIL is PRESENT IN ME)

I am having trouble understanding exactly what squint is saying. Maybe I am a little thick headed or maybe squint is writing over my head? Whatever the case I am just trying to understand what exactly squint is saying and mean no harm or insult.

JacktheCatholic · Sep 21, 2007

The Fall

God is infinitely good and all his works are good. Yet no one can escape the experience of suffering or the evils in nature which seem to be linked to the limitations proper to creatures: and above all to the question of moral evil. Where does evil come from? "I sought whence evil comes and there was no solution," said St. Augustine, and his own painful quest would only be resolved by his conversion to the living God. For "the mystery of lawlessness" is clarified only in the light of the *"mystery of our religion." The revelation of divine love in Christ manifested at the same time the extent of evil and the **superabundance of grace. We must therefore approach the question of the origin of evil by fixing the eyes of our faith on him who alone is its ***conqueror.

*
2 Thessalonians 2:7
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. But the one who restrains is to do so only for the present, until he is removed from the scene

1 Timothy 3:16
Undeniably great is the mystery of devotion, Who was manifested in the flesh, vindicated in the spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed to the Gentiles, believed in throughout the world, taken up in glory.

**

Romans 5:21
as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through justification for eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord

***
Luke 11:21
When a strong man fully armed guards his palace, his possessions are safe.

John 16:11
because the ruler of this world has been condemned

1 John 3:8
Whoever sins belongs to the devil, because the devil has sinned from the beginning. Indeed, the Son of God was revealed to destroy the works of the devil

What ARE The Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven anyhow?

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Praise be to Jesus Christ. Now and forever.

Praise be to Jesus Christ. Now and forever.

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Praise be to Jesus Christ. Now and forever.

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Praise be to Jesus Christ. Now and forever.

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Praise be to Jesus Christ. Now and forever.

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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Praise be to Jesus Christ. Now and forever.

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Praise be to Jesus Christ. Now and forever.

Praise be to Jesus Christ. Now and forever.

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