What am I missing?

[food4thought]

Hi again Obsis.

I already responded earlier, but something you said in relation to eternal life made me aware of something else that it appears you are missing... the concept of life being more than the atoms and physical laws that make up the grey matter and chemicals of our brains. A strictly materialist view of consciousness leads inevitably to determinism... a very depressing viewpoint, IMO. The idea of our conscious selves being more than just the sum of our physical parts opens an entire universe of possibilities to what it truly means to be human. When someone comes into a real relationship with God, the possibilities of life become much more rich and complex... it seems to me that this understanding would improve your life here and now, as well as relieve your discomfort over the idea of eternal life. Loving interaction with a supreme intellect never get's old! What I will be is the essence of who I am made pure... If I am not to be limited by the constraints of the capacity of my current level of intellect and this physical body, it is possible that I have infinite room for growth as a being in eternity in a perfect body! This future hope is another thing that you are missing.

 

[Obsis]

First. No matter who you know or how happy they make you, people will always let you down.

That seems like a pretty depressing way to look at life.

The idea of our conscious selves being more than just the sum of our physical parts opens an entire universe of possibilities to what it truly means to be human.

So does the idea of being able to shape the world on a whim, but unfortunately both positions seem to be lacking in the department of "actually being true". That is, unless you have a good reason to believe we're more than the sum of our parts... I'd love to know, it's just that I've never heard a good reason to believe it's true.

Loving interaction with a supreme intellect never get's old!

Does god talk back to you? Tell you things you didn't/shouldn't be able to know? I've never heard any religious folk say that god actually shares any of that infinite insight with them, it always seems to be one-way communication. Or occasionally sharing some things the person already knew.

 

[cloudyday2]

Does god talk back to you? Tell you things you didn't/shouldn't be able to know? I've never heard any religious folk say that god actually shares any of that infinite insight with them, it always seems to be one-way communication. Or occasionally sharing some things the person already knew.

You weren't asking me, but at times it has seemed like a two-way interaction for me. For example, when I was about 15 I tried to write a 3D rendering program. (This was back in the days of the Apple IIe.) I didn't know about matrix algebra, so I was having a lot of trouble. Then I laid down on my bed and asked God to please help me figure it out. Instantly I realized a much better approach.

I could give you lots of examples like that. I tend to get help or encouragement from God when I'm in despair. But sometimes I don't believe in God. I'm not sure how to reconcile these significant experiences of God with the absurdity of Christianity. Of course it is easy to dismiss these things as coincidences and hallucinations, but it is harder when you experience them.

I was actually wondering if what you are missing is an appreciation of your spiritual needs? You probably know the beatitudes. IMO they are partly saying that a person must realize he/she has a need before getting fulfillment from God.

Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied

Matthew 5:1-12 ESV - The Sermon on the Mount - Seeing the - Bible Gateway

 

[ViaCrucis]

So. I have found that it's time to do another one of those "let's look at the world again and see if anything we know is wrong" times. And since it's silly to only ask such things of people you already know, I thought I'd throw this one in here as well.

I'm currently a non-believer in all things spiritual, magical and divine. And since I tend to get people saying (online, anyways, more on that later) that this means I'm missing something in my life, I figured I'd give you people a chance to tell me what that is.

So, here's some things I'm not missing:

- Happiness (because my life is pretty awesome)
- Community (I know plenty of people to hang around with, none of them religious)
- Understanding of the universe (I have a pretty good science education, so I can answer most questions without having to resort to gods and magic)
- Purpose and meaning (because I can make my own just fine)

Here's some things I don't have:

- Fear of death (I'd be terrified of eternal life on the other hand... now there is a scary thought)
- Fear of hell (because it makes no sense conceptually. And if it did, I'd be just as scared of heaven; because see previous entry)



So. Giving the above, is there anything I'm missing out on? I certainly don't feel like I'm missing anything and none of the answers I've gotten so far have been convincing, but I figured I'd give some more people a chance.

All of those things, including fear of death and fear of hell, can be had without Christianity.

So I can pretty confidently say that Christianity isn't chiefly about any of those things, certainly not a fear of death or a fear of hell.

What Christianity offers isn't happiness in this life, or a comprehensive understanding of the universe, or a sense of communal belonging, or having a sense of purpose; what Christianity offers is salvation in Jesus Christ by His death and resurrection and a participation in the eternal life of God, hope in the world to come.

Or in a more "reductionist" sense, Christianity means Jesus.

This isn't an attempt to convince you of anything; but an address to your opening post.

I entirely expect certain responses:

a) Why do I need saving?

b) Why should I need Jesus?

Things of that nature. And every answer I'd offer would not be an attempt to convince you, either by appealing to your emotions or your reason. But simply the answers that are relevant within Christianity.

If, ultimately, you're curious as to how we might try and convince you to be a Christian, I may disappoint there--as I'm not going to try and convince you to become a Christian.

Though if you're curious as to why you ought to be a Christian, I can answer that: Jesus Christ, His death and resurrection, as God's engagement with this world of suffering and death, with human evil, and ultimately His delivering of this world from death, suffering, and evil and to transform it into the kind of world He intends it to be--one where there is no mourning, no suffering, no dying, no pain. A world in which all of creation is set to rights, and we are fully, and radically human.

Because the reality as it is now is that we, in our humanity, are a suffering, wounded animal--and like a wounded animal we are prone to violence. Driven by selfish ambition, self gratification, self-seeking desire, we seek to shrivel downward and downward into ourselves, and ultimately--if we are willing--to escape wholly into our own self-made nothingness. Desperately trying not to be human. Because to be truly human means to be the image-bearing creation of God, and to be the image-bearer of God means a life lived outward toward the rest of creation, loving, serving, offering nothing but compassion, and being just toward all creatures. But man is, as he is now, not this, or more accurately, a caricature of this. A marred image.

In Jesus the image of God is restored, the fullness of humanity is lifted up and fully realized, and it becomes the unconditional outpouring of love for all, the unconditional act of service and compassion, mercy for all, perfect justice and righteousness. And thus, in Him and by Him, is mankind made whole again, and we men can see what we are meant to be and what we shall be; this we have now by faith, but then--at the end--face to face. That sin and death are dealt with by the Incarnate Son of God, crucified and risen from the dead, and coming again at the consummation of history to judge the living and the dead, to set all wrongs to rights, and to make all things new. And that means, for us, resurrection from the dead, immortality, and life everlasting; and for the whole cosmos, a new heavens and a new earth, all of creation renewed and restored, the whole universe raised up in Jesus and rendered whole and perfect in Him.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Obsis]

You weren't asking me, but at times it has seemed like a two-way interaction for me. For example, when I was about 15 I tried to write a 3D rendering program. (This was back in the days of the Apple IIe.) I didn't know about matrix algebra, so I was having a lot of trouble. Then I laid down on my bed and asked God to please help me figure it out. Instantly I realized a much better approach.

I have those moments all the time. It's my subconscious cracking problems. It's very good at it, I rely heavily on that ability during my normal work as a software developer. It certainly feels like some outside force helping you if you're not aware of how it works and it becomes much stronger if you learn to cultivate it

I was actually wondering if what you are missing is an appreciation of your spiritual needs?

I don't think I have any of those...

A world in which all of creation is set to rights, and we are fully, and radically human.

A world without pain and suffering doesn't sound very human to me. Pain and suffering (and the other sides of their balance) seem to be what defines the whole struggle about what it means to be human. Without such challenges and setbacks, we just become lazy and complacent. I see this too much in people around me already.

 

[TillICollapse]

Here's some thoughts:

When I was younger and single, and wanting to see the world ... I had a "I can do anything" mentality. I became an expat for awhile, traveling around, learning about new people and cultures, etc. I desperately wanted some of my friends to go with me ... but there was always a reason they couldn't go. They talked big, but when push came to shove, they would back out. So some of the most amazing things I've experienced in my life ... I've done so alone, or with a casual friend, or a stranger. IOW, those I cared about most ... often weren't there for one reason or another.

I've experienced quite a bit of what many would call "supernatural" types of things. Some of them, were life changing, in so much that ... merely acknowledging they happened, people would look at me differently. Look at me like I was "one of those people" lol. It took me a couple of years to get used to this. And the thing was, is that some of the things that happened to me were like ... dreams coming true types of things. Almost unbelievable types of things. But even the *idea* that I might be telling the truth about what I saw or experienced, was more than some of my closest friends and loved ones could handle. For whatever reason. Not all of them, but some of them ... and I became "one of those people" with them. Labeled, branded, etc. It sucked, of course ... not just because you want those you care about to believe you, but ... I love to EXPERIENCE. And I like to share experiences. I want those I care about to share in the same things that I find to be amazing, awe inspiring, full of wonder, mysterious, adventurous, etc.

So what are you missing ? Well, there may be people out there who are the "real deal". They are actually experiencing some hard to explain things, perhaps living on the edge or the "fringe" in some manner ... I would say that maybe going down some rabbit holes with some of them might expand your world view. Show you more about reality, perhaps things you hadn't considered. It's one thing to read about cheetahs and see them in cages and look at pics of them on the internet, it's another thing to be on the ground with 5 of them staring you down and nothing in-between. Likewise with what many refer to as the "supernatural" types of experiences. It's one thing to hear about them, and analyze someone else's story ... but when you are experiencing such things with someone, it broadens your perspective on the world. I know it did mine. And some of those rabbit holes I went down, that others said, "No thanks, I'll wait here ..." man, I wish they had gone down some of them with me . Not to convince them of some nonsense, but to EXPERIENCE it with people I cared about

Food for thought ...

 

[food4thought]

So does the idea of being able to shape the world on a whim, but unfortunately both positions seem to be lacking in the department of "actually being true". That is, unless you have a good reason to believe we're more than the sum of our parts... I'd love to know, it's just that I've never heard a good reason to believe it's true.

Well, we should start with something completely unrelated to the Bible... how about the studies showing that people could indeed sense when they were being stared at? Take a look at this paper (please read the whole thing before going to standard skeptic answers, their objections are addressed):

http://www.sheldrake.org/files/pdfs/papers/JCSpaper1.pdf

Does god talk back to you? Tell you things you didn't/shouldn't be able to know? I've never heard any religious folk say that god actually shares any of that infinite insight with them, it always seems to be one-way communication. Or occasionally sharing some things the person already knew.

One anecdote of me learning something I did not know through the Holy Spirit would be from a few months after I became a Christian. I was working as a supervisor, and had just finished training an employee I had never met before so he could work at that job. It was Friday afternoon, my work week was over, and I was eager to start my weekend (particularly because I had just worked overtime to train the new worker). I left, and as I was leaving a calm, quiet voice in my mind said: "Go back". I ignored the voice and kept going on my way home, but the voice was persistent, saying over and over "Go back". After arguing with the voice for a while, I finally gave in and turned around to go back (I was half way home by then). When I got back to the work site, I discovered several things. First, my supervisor had stopped by the site to visit the new worker because they knew each other. Second, they were both strong Christians! My boss pastored a church and the new worker was a missionary home to raise funds so he could continue with his ministry. I was a brand new Christian, and didn't know many believers personally, and it was a real blessing to know that I would be working with two experienced and committed Christians. Best of all, we had a long conversation about our faith, and I was greatly encouraged by the whole experience. I had no way of knowing that returning to my workplace would include anything beyond more work.

Hope this helps;
Mike

 

[cloudyday2]

...
I've experienced quite a bit of what many would call "supernatural" types of things. Some of them, were life changing, in so much that ... merely acknowledging they happened, people would look at me differently. Look at me like I was "one of those people" lol. It took me a couple of years to get used to this. And the thing was, is that some of the things that happened to me were like ... dreams coming true types of things. Almost unbelievable types of things. But even the *idea* that I might be telling the truth about what I saw or experienced, was more than some of my closest friends and loved ones could handle. For whatever reason. Not all of them, but some of them ... and I became "one of those people" with them. Labeled, branded, etc. It sucked, of course ... not just because you want those you care about to believe you, but ... I love to EXPERIENCE. And I like to share experiences. I want those I care about to share in the same things that I find to be amazing, awe inspiring, full of wonder, mysterious, adventurous, etc.
...

I've noticed the same thing when I have tried to discuss supernatural/hallucinatory experiences. Sometimes it seems like people simply refuse to hear what I am trying to discuss because it bothers them. It's frustrating because sometimes I need to talk about these things.

One thing that really bothers me is the relationship between psychosis and spirituality. I had a psychotic episode for a couple of weeks and that was clearly mental illness, but most of my really bizarre experiences happened months or even years before and after that episode and they were more like bolts from the blue. I wonder if psychosis is simply an oversensitivity to spiritual inputs that confuses the mind?

The materialist view of reality sometimes makes me feel better, because there seem to be no good answers.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I do have a family, actually We're not married, but we do have a kid and it's been great since the start.

As to why I fear eternal life, the short version is that I've been blessed/cursed with a basic understanding of psychology and a sense of scale... I don't think there's any activity I could think of that I would enjoy for more than a thousand years, let alone a million, let alone until the heat death of the universe... let alone the realisation at after the heat death of the universe my eternal life still hasn't even surpassed its first moment.

Obsis,

In the case of the ideas you present above, I'd say what you are missing is an understanding of what Christianity says about the transformation of a Christian's being and body at the resurrection.

Your comments above belie an assumption that there is essentially no transformation as Christians move from this life and into the next; but you may want to better understand that Christian claims, such as those made by Jesus and Paul, infer that our eternal state will preclude the proclivity toward boredom and/or monotony.

Peace

 

[Obsis]

Well, we should start with something completely unrelated to the Bible... how about the studies showing that people could indeed sense when they were being stared at? Take a look at this paper (please read the whole thing before going to standard skeptic answers, their objections are addressed):

http://www.sheldrake.org/files/pdfs/.../JCSpaper1.pdf

This paper suffers from the number 1 problem of all people who research "the supernatural"... he has all this data, all these questions for continued research and he misses the most important one. "How does this work?".

As much as I'd like to believe people can pick up on being stared at (it would be an incredibly useful evolutionary trait, and people have plenty of senses that we're barely aware of) there is basically no point to it as long as this guy doesn't try to figure out how we can pick up on it. In this sense, all claims of the paranormal are self-defeating; the scientist starts his research by accepting he'll never figure out how it works and all these opportunities are wasted.

Regarding your anecdote, do you keep strong memories of the times the voice in your head tells you to do something and then nothing happens? Because I've had that happen as well, but then as a skeptic I also started keeping track of all the times it said something and then nothing happened and the end result was that it was usually wrong.

I wonder if psychosis is simply an oversensitivity to spiritual inputs that confuses the mind?

Or the other way around; "oversensitivity to spiritual inputs" is simply a latent form of psychosis that occasionally flares up. Or just a mind looking for explanations when it really should just say "I don't understand what happened." It could easily be either.

Your comments above belie an assumption that there is essentially no transformation as Christians move from this life and into the next;

Check. I don't believe there is any transformation, other than "living" -> "dead". The problem is that "accepting Christianity" is not something I can do without good evidence or a very strong reason that it will be a good idea. So far, I do not have either. While lots of people say "but your life will be so much better if you just have faith that I'm right", unfortunately I am a creature driven by evidence and truth, and I do not trust the latter without the former. So any line of argument that starts with "just forget everything you know and believe this instead" would fail on me.

I was hoping to instead find something else, so that's why I'm here.

 

[oi_antz]

I have those moments all the time. It's my subconscious cracking problems. It's very good at it, I rely heavily on that ability during my normal work as a software developer. It certainly feels like some outside force helping you if you're not aware of how it works and it becomes much stronger if you learn to cultivate it

What do you make of his claim ascribing it to God?

A world without pain and suffering doesn't sound very human to me. Pain and suffering (and the other sides of their balance) seem to be what defines the whole struggle about what it means to be human. Without such challenges and setbacks, we just become lazy and complacent. I see this too much in people around me already.

If we have all eternity and the streets are made of gold, what is wrong with being lazy? I mean, if it bothers you, there is nothing stopping you from reversing a black hole. But you also said pain and suffering define being human. It doesn't. Pain and suffering happens to all creatures. Sometimes through misfortune, sometimes through complacency, sometimes through evil. Jesus promises there will be no more suffering or tears. Can you imagine that reality being not possible? Can you explain why?

 

[Obsis]

What do you make of his claim ascribing it to God?

Unless I've been teaching god new tricks, I see little reason to believe it is. At least not for me. I've been in this body long enough to know what my subconscious is like.

If we have all eternity and the streets are made of gold, what is wrong with being lazy?

I would say "everything", but that is my personal opinion.

But you also said pain and suffering define being human. It doesn't. Pain and suffering happens to all creatures.

Yeah, perhaps it would be better to say "define what it means to be alive" in general.

Can you imagine that reality being not possible? Can you explain why?

You mean a reality without suffering and pain? I don't think that's possible. Our bodies and perception are all geared towards classifying things that happen as either good or bad; removing "bad" would either cause us to recalibrate our systems (something easily observed when you see the difference between someone from a rich first-world society and a poor person from a developing country) or it would cause us to (again) stop being recognisable as human.
You'll run into all sorts of problems, like people who suffer when they cannot hurt other people, people whose happiness is mutually exclusive and more weird things.

It sounds nice and idealised, but it's full of all sorts of unsurpassable problems, unless you simply wave away everything that once made a person themselves, but then there's really nothing to gain anymore.

 

[cloudyday2]

This paper suffers from the number 1 problem of all people who research "the supernatural"... he has all this data, all these questions for continued research and he misses the most important one. "How does this work?".

Usually I think the anomalous data precedes the new theory. What bothers me about Sheldrake is that he doesn't seem to do any actual scientific research. He just does lectures, books, and videos about the possibility that these things might true. I wonder if he subconsciously knows that rigorous experiments would debunk these claims and put him out of business? If psychic phenomena actually exist then they must have a property that hides them from science. Science must make some fundamental assumptions about reality that aren't actually true.

Of course it's simpler to be a materialist and dismiss any contrary evidence as coincidences, hoaxes, mental illness, overactive imaginations, etc. Religion and spirituality can't take credit for medical care, electricity, and all the other things that have improved human life. In fact accepting spiritual explanations for anomalous experiences prevents new scientific discoveries, but dismissing anomalous experiences without serious investigation also prevents progress.

 

[Obsis]

Usually I think the anomalous data precedes the new theory.

Yes, but only if the scientists make actually looking for that theory an important part of their continued work. No such thing here, it seems.

What bothers me about Sheldrake is that he doesn't seem to do any actual scientific research. He just does lectures, books, and videos about the possibility that these things might true. I wonder if he subconsciously knows that rigorous experiments would debunk these claims and put him out of business?

Likely. If you apply this line of suspicion about the reasonings of people to the general populace, you get the notion that most people in the world are only claiming what they claim because they know that it'll generate them revenue. You get, on the one hand, a very distrusting approach to life, but on the other hand, you learn to poke through the bull and get to the heart of things.

If psychic phenomena actually exist then they must have a property that hides them from science. Science must make some fundamental assumptions about reality that aren't actually true.

Not neccesarily. They might simply have a property that we don't know how to measure at this time. This is what makes the "how does it work" so important. Ultimately, all science would need is any kind of impact on the known real world in order to measure something, and they'll figure out a way to measure it.

This is one of the main reasons why I don't buy into claims about the supernatural; we can measure and prove the existance of particles that barely interact with our world at all, yet we can't measure that should be obviously huge and pervasive like people's abilities to read minds? Sounds ridiculous. (See the Neutrino, for example)

As soon as you hear the claim "cannot measure", you know you're dealing with a con-man, because as soon as it has even the most ridiculously small impact on reality, we can measure it. If it can't be measured, it isn't changing anything in our reality, and that means it cannot actually be a real thing.

 

[Emmy]

Dear Obsis. No matter how young you still are, but the time will come when you have to say Good-Bye to all you have known on Earth. With so many people believing that there is a God and an eternity, it would be foolish to
simply ignore it. God is Love, and we all know the 10Commandments, which
have become the two Commandments, on which hang all the Law and the Prophets.( Matthew 22: 35-40) The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all our hearts, with all our souls, and with all our minds. The second is like it: Love our neighbour as we love ourselves." In Matthew 7: 7-10: we are told: " Ask and ye shall receive," then we ask for Love and Joy, thank God, and share all Love and Joy with our neighbour: all we know and all we meet, friends and not friends. God is Love, and God wants to live eternity with loving children/sons and daughters.
A Christian`s weapon is Love, with love we can overcome all adversity and all
wrongs. The Bible tells us: " Repent," and also, " Be Born Again." We have to change our selfishness to become Loving and Caring. Love is very catching
and Love will change us gradually into the men and women, which God our Heavenly Father wants us to become.
There is also God`s eternal Law of Justice: which will teach us:
in Galatians 6: 7-10: we are told that God will not be mocked, " whatever we
sow we will also reap." God is a fair and righteous Judge, and God always gives us enough time to change and become the sons and daughters which God wants us to become. Jesus will help and guide us: JESUS IS THE WAY.
God has given us free will, God wants our Love freely given and No tags attached. How will you choose, Obsis. ? Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ. N.B. I forgot to mention: we might stumble and forget at times, but then we ask God to forgive us, and thank God, and carry on Loving and Caring.

 

[Obsis]

With so many people believing that there is a God and an eternity, it would be foolish to simply ignore it.

This is an argumentum ad populum, which is a logical fallacy. Those don't really help your case...

 

[cloudyday2]

Not neccesarily. They might simply have a property that we don't know how to measure at this time. This is what makes the "how does it work" so important. Ultimately, all science would need is any kind of impact on the known real world in order to measure something, and they'll figure out a way to measure it.

This is one of the main reasons why I don't buy into claims about the supernatural; we can measure and prove the existance of particles that barely interact with our world at all, yet we can't measure that should be obviously huge and pervasive like people's abilities to read minds? Sounds ridiculous. (See the Neutrino, for example)

As soon as you hear the claim "cannot measure", you know you're dealing with a con-man, because as soon as it has even the most ridiculously small impact on reality, we can measure it. If it can't be measured, it isn't changing anything in our reality, and that means it cannot actually be a real thing.

Science does make some assumptions IMO such as: objective reality, causality, the future will be similar to the past, etc. In fact I think science assumes the materialist view of reality is correct enough that supernatural forces will not distort experimental results. (The Flying Spaghetti Monster must keep his noodly appendage away from scientific experiments.)

But I agree that for spirituality to exist and be relevant, it must be measurable. Why can't science measure spirituality? My pet theory is that spirituality interfaces to reality through the randomness of quantum mechanics. The Flying Spaghetti Monster controls the collapse of probability waves into events and this control trickles up through chaotic systems such as subconscious thoughts, weather systems, etc. The Flying Spaghetti Monster can have great influence but the results always seem to be strange coincidences, hallucinations, etc.

 

[Obsis]

Science makes a few assumptions, yes. They're called Axioms. But the trick is that in order to be considered an Axiom is has to be extremely self-evident. And then as soon as we see a situation where an Axiom is shown to be no longer real, science is rewritten without that Axiom and we start over again.

As to your pet theory; it's indistinguishable from spirituality simply not existing. Considering two theories having the same outcomes, it's generally better to go with the simplest one. It saves up brain space for other things.

 

[cloudyday2]

As to your pet theory; it's indistinguishable from spirituality simply not existing. Considering two theories having the same outcomes, it's generally better to go with the simplest one. It saves up brain space for other things.

Good point. I suppose it's about wanting to believe in a higher purpose? But you are probably right.

 

[oi_antz]

Unless I've been teaching god new tricks, I see little reason to believe it is. At least not for me. I've been in this body long enough to know what my subconscious is like.

Ok, please bear with me, I do struggle to understand the atheist perspective.

I would say "everything", but that is my personal opinion.

Even in it's most granular form, "I would rather drink a coffee and watch the birds in the tree than mow the lawns". Can you describe why you think there is something wrong with that, or maybe there is a difference in my idea of laziness and yours?

You mean a reality without suffering and pain? I don't think that's possible. Our bodies and perception are all geared towards classifying things that happen as either good or bad; removing "bad" would either cause us to recalibrate our systems (something easily observed when you see the difference between someone from a rich first-world society and a poor person from a developing country) or it would cause us to (again) stop being recognisable as human.

This seems to be based on the assumption that bad is a natural part of life, and I suspect it might be due to your atheist perspective that implies bad is natural. But if all sources of bad are eliminated, there is only various degrees of good. That doesn't mean that the least degree of good will be perceived as bad, such an opinion is only an observation of greed. Greed is bad, contentment is the opposite, so if everyone was content and there was only varying degrees of good, how is it possible for suffering and pain to exist?

You'll run into all sorts of problems, like people who suffer when they cannot hurt other people, people whose happiness is mutually exclusive and more weird things.

It sounds nice and idealised, but it's full of all sorts of unsurpassable problems, unless you simply wave away everything that once made a person themselves, but then there's really nothing to gain anymore.

I need you to explain what you mean by mutually exclusive happiness, but I disagree with the other two ideas. You are saying that everyone has something about them that causes them to inflict pain or suffering, which is not true at all. It is true that some people do enjoy inflicting pain and suffering, but that is not to say that those people or those qualities of a person will be present in heaven. John the baptist spoke of unquenchable fire that consumes the chaff, which seems to indicate that the qualities that aren't useful are destroyed. Exactly how this happens is another topic, but it does seem to suggest that God is planning to only reap the qualities that He finds useful. I assume that means the good is harvested and the bad is destroyed. So it seems possible to me that an absense of suffering and pain can be achieved if the source of the suffering and pain is removed. Do you actually mean to tell me that every person you know of has something about them that causes pain and suffering?