What about *your* faith, is going to shock people, when Jesus returns?

[Gottservant]

Hi there,

So hey I'm interested to know what people think they have in the faith that will set them apart from the rest of the world when Jesus returns. I mean, you can't say you will believe in Jesus just like everybody else, right? What would be the point? That would only gratify the flesh? The point is there is already something different about all of us, but the world doesn't necessarily like it or see the point. So its up to us to make our difference known.

But its a little bit more complicated than just having a difference, or just making it known, because the fact is, that if its real someone is going to be shocked. Now, I'm not saying you should look for a way to shock people, that's not what I've said, what I am saying is, you shouldn't shy away from a particular belief, just because there is some shock involved for certain people. I mean think about it: Jesus is back and you think the world is going to say "oh, ho hum, I expected that" No! So why would you think nothing about what you believe is going to shock people either?

Now there are lots of things that can shock people, so its still important to be discerning, but think about it: we were once children of the Devil, and now those same children that believed in the Devil, believe in God! I mean that's shocking right? There's a difference right? Being real about it is really important to our faith, we should be confessing our sins and relating to God about our hardships, so that we get over ourselves and start to work with God towards the end that He desires for us.

Maybe what I'm saying is not that inspired, at the moment, I don't know. I just feel like the Church is headed in two completely different directions. One is to a faith that is ordinary just before it dies, and the other is to a faith that is extraordinary just before it really comes to life. I mean what do you think? Are you going to become a new creature overnight just believing the same stuff you've always believed? Maybe you are? But is that going to shock anyone at all? Maybe not right?

Listen, I'm not trying to corrupt you, if you've been paying attention I've actually given you very few details of what might actually shock someone. I'm keeping my peace. But there is an urgency about this, that we don't just settle for getting together around a Christian TV set or something, which is crazy. I mean preachers are the real deal, right? You have to live it if you want to be seen associated with what we believe as Christians? Don't you? Are you discerning?

I'll leave it there, but I'm interested to see what people will say. Naturally if you are answering correctly you will mention controversy in the Church, but we needn't start controversy in the process, right?

PS. Feel free to vent about shock we don't need, I'm interested in that too

 

[Gottservant]

There is a point here.

Jesus' return is not in itself going to shock the world.

I wonder if you realize that.

 

[seeingeyes]

There is a point here.

Jesus' return is not in itself going to shock the world.

I wonder if you realize that.

I've considered this, too. I see parallels between the story of Israel and the story of the Church. Israel expected a conquering King to come and destroy their enemies, so does the Church.

Israel got a backwater preacher who hung out with sinners and Samaritans and who was killed in his prime...what will the Church get?

 

[Rick Otto]

What about *your* faith, is going to shock people, when Jesus returns?

That I had any.

 

[Optimax]

I would say that the shocked ones will not be the "world"

The shocked ones will be those who thought they had faith.

But in reality had no clue!

 

[~Anastasia~]

I would say that the shocked ones will not be the "world"

The shocked ones will be those who thought they had faith.

But in reality had no clue!

I have to agree with this. Between "depart from me ye evildoers, I never knew you" and the virgins with the door shut in their faces ...

I think that's the main answer.

If I think in terms of the church and denominations, my guess is that many ARE going to be His that are going to surprise others, and that they will come from "every tribe and tongue" and probably every denomination as well.

That and my present stance on end-times doesn't line up with the biggest part of the church, but I'm certainly not going to dig in and say that I KNOW I'm right about that, because I don't.

eta: now that I look at your question again, I'm not sure I answered it ... but that's the best I can think of.

 

[Giantbear]

There is a point here.

Jesus' return is not in itself going to shock the world.

I wonder if you realize that.

How in the world is Jesus going to return, in what sense?

Bodily?

Read the versus below where Jesus states that the "THE WORLD WILL SEE ME NO MORE".

The risen Lord makes it clear as crystal that the world will never see the risen messiah.

Also Judas not Iscariot replies "HOW IS IT POSSIBLE THAT YOU WILL MANIFEST YOURSELF ONTO US BUT NOT TO THE WORLD?"

Clearly Jesus warns the faithful, that any manifested earthly messiah on earth whether in the body or in some other visible form, where the world can see him, is to be avoided at all cost. (Matthew 24:5)

John 14:19-23
Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me:because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me:and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words:and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

I have testified before and will testify again, the risen Lord is not going to show up in bodily form on earth, our physical time based realm.

There is no manifestation or physical returning of the risen Lord to earth, get that out of your minds, this is part and parcel of the deception and the strong delusion to accept the lie, where by setting up the faithful to worship the pretender the false messiah, who according to Isaiah 14 will come and he is none other than the incarnated devil (the beast of the bottomless Pitt).

The only way to see the risen Lord is you must first die, then be resurrected into the glorified angelic heavenly body and by presented before The Lord as a Holy vessel. You cannot come in the presence of the risen and glorified Lord unless you pass from death onto resurrection from the earthly body to the heavenly body of an angel.

Saint Paul clearly declares this as a warning and hope for the faithful.

2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

The Lord's appearing is when the thief comes on a day and hour that no man knows. This Jewish idiom is that when death (thief) comes knocking on one's door on a day and hour they least expect it, in their darkest hour where their earthly body is dissolved, then they come before the judgement seat of Christ to be rewarded for the words done in the body, whether good or bad.

This first judgement that is the separation of the sheep from the goats has been happening 2000 years ago since Jesus ascended up on high.

Basically this is the sequence in order to see Jesus:

1) Sanctified by his Holy Spirit whilst you are in your earthly body

2) Faithful onto death of your physical earthly body

3) Come into the presence of The Lord (Lord's Appearing) to be judged as the sheep or the goat.

4) Enter through the power of the resurrection when Christ clothes you with your heavenly angelic body

5) Refused entry through the power of the resurrection and will await in naked state the final judgement at the end of the world, called the judgement of the wicked, who had no part in the resurrection of the dead.

If the world is still alive and haven't yet passed through the vail called death, then rest assure any messiah manifesting in any visible form is the false messiah the devil and his fallen angelic crowd.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Not to argue, but how then to explain such things as

Acts 1:11 Who said, Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing into heaven? This same Jesus, Who was caught away and lifted up from among you into heaven, will return in [just] the same way in which you saw Him go into heaven.

Matt 24:27 For just as the lightning flashes from the east and shines and [h]is seen as far as the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. (admittedly in context this one more easily fits into what you are saying)

Rev 1:7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

Just these three seem to be in some agreement, so ... ?

Not that this is honestly a big matter for me. We live our lives as we live our lives. I'm not pinpointing any dates so whether I die or not, I'm not going to be surprised either way and would live the same.

 

[Giantbear]

Not to argue, but how then to explain such things as

Acts 1:11 Who said, Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing into heaven? This same Jesus, Who was caught away and lifted up from among you into heaven, will return in [just] the same way in which you saw Him go into heaven.

Matt 24:27 For just as the lightning flashes from the east and shines and [h]is seen as far as the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. (admittedly in context this one more easily fits into what you are saying)

Rev 1:7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

Just these three seem to be in some agreement, so ... ?

Not that this is honestly a big matter for me. We live our lives as we live our lives. I'm not pinpointing any dates so whether I die or not, I'm not going to be surprised either way and would live the same.

Thank you for asking and I would be happy to give you an answer.

Acts 1:11 Who said, Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing into heaven? This same Jesus, Who was caught away and lifted up from among you into heaven, will return in [just] the same way in which you saw Him go into heaven.

The message is addressed to the men of Galilee, whom Saint Stephan was. When Saint Stephan was killed he was given a view to Heaven where he stated that he saw The Lord and then pleaded with The Lord to receive him.

This message can also apply to any New Covenant Saint at the transition when their earthly body is dissolved. The Jewish idiom of the thief who comes in the night, meaning death coming in the middle of the night in one's darkness hours and on a day and hour, when one least expects it to kill their earthly body, then the context of the Lord's Appearing occurs for that particular individual, whether Good or bad. This is the first judgement that immediately follows a person when they are presented before The Lord to be judged for the works done in the body.

This happened to Saint Stephan and he alone could see it because the thief came for him only that day and he was given an eye witness account to the heavenly realm to see Jesus. The other people did not see Jesus and this is also important to note. So the thief in the night came for Saint Stephan on that day and hour at the Lord's Appearing.

Matt 24:27 For just as the lightning flashes from the east and shines and [h]is seen as far as the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. (admittedly in context this one more easily fits into what you are saying)

The above verse, is not the Lord's Appearing. The Lord's Appearing has been happening to every departed individual when they leave their earthly bodies, then to face the first judgement, the judgement of the sheep and the goats then to either be clothed with the resurrection white heavenly garments of angels or to be sent of into outer darkness to await the final judgement of the wicked in the lake of fire, that is the second death, the death of the soul.

The verse above alludes to the final judgement when the world ends, meaning the end of the harvest of God and the seventh angel, who is the risen Lord sounds the seventh trumpet and declares time no longer.

The problem with today's church doctrine, is that it denies that Christ initiated the resurrection of the dead almost 2000 years ago when he opened the tombs of the Old Covenant Saints mentioned in Matthew 27:52-53. Mathew 27:52-53 is the fulfilment of the long awaited resurrection of the dead prophesied in Ezekiel 37:12-14.

Just to recap:

1) Lord's Appearing : thief in the night comes, then first judgement (the separation of the sheep and goats) then resurrection of the dead (first resurrection) for the sheep and outer darkness for the wicked.

2) End of the world Coming is when all Adam Ones have been offered up onto death and there remains no person in their earthly bodies left alive, therefore signalled by the risen Lord as he sound the seventh trumpet and declares time no longer. Then what follows is the final judgement for the wicked who had no part in the resurrection of the dead when they has already preciously faced the first judgement 1) above.

The evidence is in the scripture:

Revelation 20:14-15
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Notice that both death meaning no one is left around to be offered onto death and hell who were those that served in outer darkness now are all thrown in as a group in the lake of fire to be destroyed because they were not found in the book of life.

Any rational person can understand that there is no longer a purpose to keep those disobedient souls in outer darkness past this point where the wedding of the lamb is fully furnished with guests, who are found in the book of life. This means that those in outer darkness are literally put out of their misery and this is how the merciful God operates, for there is no longer a purpose to have them eternally punished as they are not found in the book of life.

Jesus clearly states that the TARES (goats) are thrown as a bunch in the lake of fire, the second death at the End of the Great Harvest of God. So in hind sight why would The Lord continue to keep the weeds/TARES past this point, it makes absolutely no sense what so ever. Yet the church has taught eternal torment even past this points which in its self is opposite to what scripture teaches. These end of harvest wicked have absolutely no chance of being found in the book of life, it is over for them, so why would The Lord keep them around suffering eternally in outer darkness?

Simply put those that made these false doctrines do not know the heart of The Lord at all, they continue in ignorance and reject the Holy Spirit inspired messengers.

Rev 1:7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

This verse already has his growing wedding list, THE WHITE ANGELIC CLOUD, from his Old Covenant first fruits, as the first cab of the rank as far as the resurrection of the dead is concerned, to all the New Covenant Saints who have been raptured from the life in the earthly body to that of the heavenly body after their earthly body is destroyed by the thief (death). As Saint Paul puts it:

Hebrews 9:27
Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

This judgment is the first judgement that every departing soul faces after the thief (death) destroys their earthly tent/bodies.

Every eye shall see him, that is the good and the wicked once that person's day and hour comes, when their earthly body dies. Those that pierced him will truly mourn when they are brought before him to be judged as the goats in the first judgement.

Remember what Jesus said to the chief priest?

Matthew 26:62-65
And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee? But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said:nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.

From the above verse the Lord's Appearing came for the chief priest as well, when the thief (death) came on that day and hour, when he died. This chief priest is one of many throughout history who this verse applies to:

every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen

Notice what Jesus said is exactly what one of the men of Galilee Saint Stephan saw before he gave up his spirit and so this coming with the clouds is associated with the Lord's Appearing that happens to every departed as Saint Paul stated in 1 Corinthians 15:23 "every man in his own order". Unfortunately for the chief priest he has already faced the first judgement and was cast out as a goat into outer darkness awaiting the final judgement when the world ends at the end of the great harvest when Christ sounds the seventh trumpet and declares time no longer.

While on the other hand, today's church institution teaches that the resurrection of the dead has not yet happened and that somehow a messiah must materialise on earth to initiate the resurrection and to establish his heavenly Kingdom. This is leaving every Christian open to the hour of temptation where the devil comes masquerading as the messiah with signs and lying wonders. For those that die before he comes, they escape this temptation, but for the generation of Christians who remain alive, this second coming church doctrine becomes the poison, that seals the fate of the end of harvest generation to damnation.

Unfortunately the way that the world is going, towards the end there may not be many to salvage except that Christ through his appointed Elijah restore all things and pick up what the church institution has fumbled badly throughout the centuries.

The most dangerous doctrine that the church institution has come up with is the notorious Second Coming Doctrine.

I am here preparing the end of days generation to not fall for this lie. If I do not sound the trumpet, then their blood will be on my hands and I can't live with that because much has been revealed to me and I must witness for Christ's sake.

 

[Gottservant]

The simple answer is that some will see because they have had faith and some will see because they wish they had faith (which is a kind of faith).

But there is no seeing without faith, which I think must be Giantbear's point

 

[~Anastasia~]

Thanks for explaining that Giantbear.

I'd have to do more reading to ask more intelligent questions (which I may need to ask).

One thing I can say is that you address two things that have bothered me.

The first is the resurrection that happened near the time of Jesus' resurrection, which pretty much everything I've ever read seems to ignore.

The second is the uneasy feeling I have about eternal torment, which doesn't feel just to me (but who are we to judge God?) and which also doesn't seem to fit with His nature. Though I can't base doctrine on that.

However these, and the other points you've given, are enough to make it worth looking into, and also off the top of my head, fit with certain other passages of Scripture.

Is this something with an official "position" I can read more about? To perhaps fill in a bit more before I check it with Scripture? (Please don't be offended but I would always insist on that.)

If not I may have more questions if you don't mind, but it could take me a while.

Thanks!

 

[Giantbear]

Your most welcome and you have come across as one of the few faithfuls who is more intelligent and open minded than most ecclesiastical scholarly types.

Ask Jesus to always guide you and he will reveal his truth to you. When you ask The Lord your eyes will be opened in due season.

May Jesus bless you.

 

[Giantbear]

Ask away when you are ready.

I am in more need of Jesus right now than any time in my life, because many things disturb me as well about the state of the church today.

 

[from scratch]

Hi there,

So hey I'm interested to know what people think they have in the faith that will set them apart from the rest of the world when Jesus returns. I mean, you can't say you will believe in Jesus just like everybody else, right? What would be the point? That would only gratify the flesh? The point is there is already something different about all of us, but the world doesn't necessarily like it or see the point. So its up to us to make our difference known.

But its a little bit more complicated than just having a difference, or just making it known, because the fact is, that if its real someone is going to be shocked. Now, I'm not saying you should look for a way to shock people, that's not what I've said, what I am saying is, you shouldn't shy away from a particular belief, just because there is some shock involved for certain people. I mean think about it: Jesus is back and you think the world is going to say "oh, ho hum, I expected that" No! So why would you think nothing about what you believe is going to shock people either?

Now there are lots of things that can shock people, so its still important to be discerning, but think about it: we were once children of the Devil, and now those same children that believed in the Devil, believe in God! I mean that's shocking right? There's a difference right? Being real about it is really important to our faith, we should be confessing our sins and relating to God about our hardships, so that we get over ourselves and start to work with God towards the end that He desires for us.

Maybe what I'm saying is not that inspired, at the moment, I don't know. I just feel like the Church is headed in two completely different directions. One is to a faith that is ordinary just before it dies, and the other is to a faith that is extraordinary just before it really comes to life. I mean what do you think? Are you going to become a new creature overnight just believing the same stuff you've always believed? Maybe you are? But is that going to shock anyone at all? Maybe not right?

Listen, I'm not trying to corrupt you, if you've been paying attention I've actually given you very few details of what might actually shock someone. I'm keeping my peace. But there is an urgency about this, that we don't just settle for getting together around a Christian TV set or something, which is crazy. I mean preachers are the real deal, right? You have to live it if you want to be seen associated with what we believe as Christians? Don't you? Are you discerning?

I'll leave it there, but I'm interested to see what people will say. Naturally if you are answering correctly you will mention controversy in the Church, but we needn't start controversy in the process, right?

PS. Feel free to vent about shock we don't need, I'm interested in that too

Which time are you talking about concerning Jesus' return? If its the rapture of the saints it won't matter what anyone thinks about theology. I'm not even concerned about what they think here and now. Unless you 're a crowd person it won't make any difference. The only way to get along is be a crowd person. I'm not and am content as a loner to live in the country away from the unthinking robot people. As such I don't belong to a manipulative group. I took the highway.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Hi Giantbear, just a couple of brief questions. I haven't had time to go looking for anything, just a few things come to mind. BTW, in questioning, I'm not trying to argue but sometimes once I get to asking questions, it might not come across that way, and I might not repeat that, so please understand that's where I'm coming from, start to finish. Thanks!

2) End of the world Coming is when all Adam Ones have been offered up onto death and there remains no person in their earthly bodies left alive, therefore signalled by the risen Lord as he sound the seventh trumpet and declares time no longer. Then what follows is the final judgement for the wicked who had no part in the resurrection of the dead when they has already preciously faced the first judgement 1) above.

How does this fit with 1 Cor 15

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery ; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet ; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Just reading plainly, it surely seems to say that there will be some who remain who will be changed.

Also, I struggle with this one anyway, and you don't directly address it in your post, but how do you fit in Matt 24?

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn and beat their breasts and lament in anguish, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory [in brilliancy and splendor].
31 And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect (His chosen ones) from the four winds, [even] from one end of the [j]universe to the other.
32 From the fig tree learn this lesson: as soon as its [k]young shoots become soft and tender and it puts out its leaves, you know [l]of a surety that summer is near.
33 So also when you see these signs, [m]all taken together, coming to pass, you may know [n]of a surety that He is near, at the very doors.
34 Truly I tell you, this generation ([o]the whole multitude of people living at the same time, [p]in a definite, [q]given period) will not pass away till all these things [r]taken together take place.
35 Sky and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
36 But of that [exact] day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
37 As were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
38 For just as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, [men] marrying and [women] being given in marriage, until the [very] day when Noah went into the ark,
39 And they did not know or understand until the flood came and swept them all away—so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
40 At that time two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one will be left.
41 Two women will be grinding at the hand mill; one will be taken and one will be left.

I'd be interested in how the whole thing fits, but most especially the "one will be taken and one will be left"

Thanks very much - hopefully I'll get time to look into this soon, but those two just keep coming to mind in the meantime.

 

[Mankin]

I think the idea of our faith being more shocking than the appearance of Jesus is a rather arrogant idea.

 

[Giantbear]

Hi Giantbear, just a couple of brief questions. I haven't had time to go looking for anything, just a few things come to mind. BTW, in questioning, I'm not trying to argue but sometimes once I get to asking questions, it might not come across that way, and I might not repeat that, so please understand that's where I'm coming from, start to finish. Thanks!



How does this fit with 1 Cor 15

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery ; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet ; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Just reading plainly, it surely seems to say that there will be some who remain who will be changed.

Also, I struggle with this one anyway, and you don't directly address it in your post, but how do you fit in Matt 24?

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn and beat their breasts and lament in anguish, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory [in brilliancy and splendor].
31 And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect (His chosen ones) from the four winds, [even] from one end of the [j]universe to the other.
32 From the fig tree learn this lesson: as soon as its [k]young shoots become soft and tender and it puts out its leaves, you know [l]of a surety that summer is near.
33 So also when you see these signs, [m]all taken together, coming to pass, you may know [n]of a surety that He is near, at the very doors.
34 Truly I tell you, this generation ([o]the whole multitude of people living at the same time, [p]in a definite, [q]given period) will not pass away till all these things [r]taken together take place.
35 Sky and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
36 But of that [exact] day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
37 As were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
38 For just as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, [men] marrying and [women] being given in marriage, until the [very] day when Noah went into the ark,
39 And they did not know or understand until the flood came and swept them all away—so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
40 At that time two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one will be left.
41 Two women will be grinding at the hand mill; one will be taken and one will be left.

I'd be interested in how the whole thing fits, but most especially the "one will be taken and one will be left"

Thanks very much - hopefully I'll get time to look into this soon, but those two just keep coming to mind in the meantime.

The context of the whole chapter is the resurrection of the dead.

1Co 15:12-13
12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
(KJV)

This statement applied in the present tense to the apostles who are alive when Saint Paul delivered this message.

Basically in short Saint Paul is saying that the long awaited resurrection of the dead commenced after Christ's resurrection. So the resurrection of the dead went hand in hand with Christ's resurrection as its initiation. This is why Saint Paul is flabbergasted to why some have been saying that the resurrection of the dead has not been initiated, even after numerous witnesses that Saint Paul labored to disclose testified of christ rising.

1Co 15:16-19
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
(KJV)

Now Saint Paul further elaborates whilst connecting the resurrection of the dead hand in hand with Christ's resurrection, by saying that if in the present tense those that had fallen asleep rise not, then I'd not risen.

So those in past tense that had fallen asleep have perished because the christ came and should have already initiated the resurrection of the dead. If this hasn't happened then we are false apostles and those who only have hope in Christ are men most miserable because they are not going to be raised anyhow.

This is why Saint Paul went to length as the initial opening of the chapter to corroborate Christ's resurrection by the apostles he named, the 500 witnesses and himself included. This opening paragraphs of Saint Paul was to declare that christ has in fact risen con the dead and that the initiation of the resurrection of the dead was tired directly to him rising.
Very simple to under this context.

1Co 15:20-21
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
(KJV)

In the above versus Saint Paul further emphasizes his eye witness testimony by saying that christ had become the forerunner to the resurrecting of the dead and that when he came and arose, from him came the hand in hand resurrection of the dead.

Saint Paul did his absolute best to connect Christ's resurrection with the initiation of the resurrection of the dead. The church institution had taught the opposite to Saint Paul's testimony by making the resurrecting of the dead some 2000 years in the making event that had not happened.

That is why today's church prays for the departed as if they are still dead, they invented purgatory and penance and a second coming doctrine needed in order to initiate the resurrection of the dead. These are all false doctrines because Saint Paul contended with this false teaching by saying:

"Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?"

This is the same response to today's false church beliefs, by telling them why are they saying there is no resurrection of the dead?

Simple but true statement isn't it?

Today's church quotes from this chapter and reads the same words that I am reading, but can't discern what the versus are saying.

The saying goes:

Mar 4:12-13
12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them. 13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?
(KJV)

The verse below gives the order of the initiated resurrecting of the dead, where Christ is the forerunner, then the Old Covenant first fruits that he took with him when he opened their tombs, then every new covenant man at the Lord's Apearing when the thief (death) comes on a day and hour that no man knows to kill the earthly body.

1Co 15:23
23 But every man in his own order:Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
(KJV)

This coming is the Lord's appearing when the earthy house is dissolved and a new heavenly permanent dwelling tent is awarded to the faithful, through the power of the already initiated resurrecting of the dead.

1Co 15:24-26
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
(KJV)

The context of the end is alluding to the end of the great harvest of God, where as I stated before that the last enemy that will be no more when all Adam Ones are offered up onto death. If you read Isaiah chapter 14 the end comes when all Adam one earthly kingdoms and authority are destroyed and death itself is no longer an issue because all Adam Ones are dead.

Isa 14:7-8
7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet:they break forth into singing.
8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying,
Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
(KJV)

The above proverb is portraying a world emptied of all life as the earth is finally at rest from man's exploitation and it breaks out into singing because man is no longer around to cut down the fine cedars of Lebanon, meaning no logging for building materials.

Jesus said the end is:

Mat 24:27-28
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
(KJV)

This is as declared in 1 Corinthians 15:26
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Everyone must die before the brilliant coming of the Lord, where he sounds the seventh trumpet and declares time no longer.

1Co 15:32
32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
(KJV)

In the above verse Saint Paul puts to rest any attempt by those refuse to believe in the resurrection of the dead in present tense especially after Christ was risen, by saying why have I risked it all if I will die, so let us all eat and don't worry about tomorrow because if we die we stay dead. The church false doctrine would have Saint Paul rolling in his grave for almost 2000 years waiting for the second coming.

Then the question of how the dead are raised is addressed by Saint Paul, but we won't go into that right now.

1Co 15:51-55
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump:for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
(KJV)

The mystery is quite simple as far as Saint Paul was concerned, we shall not sleep, in other words we shall not die, why?

Jesus said when they see the Son of Man going into his Hesvenly Kingdom after he is raised, some that remain still alive will not taste death (Matthew 16:28), but will enter into life through the long awaited resurrection of the dead, that Christ initiated when he opened the tombs of the Old Covenant Saint (Matthew 27:52-53) and took them with him as the many cultures and gave them gifts (Ephesians 4:8).

Because the resurrection of the dead had already been initiated by Christ after he was raised, for this is the context of the whole chapter.

Saint Paul then goes on to say that we will be changed as part and parcel of the already initiated resurrection of the dead, immediately after our naturally sown earthly bodies are disolved and are replaced by the spiritual heavenly bodies. This is where he breaks out into singing oh death where is your sting, reason being there is no death and we shall not sleep/die.

We are changed in a twinkling of an eye meaning immediately after our earthly bodies are disolved, when the mortal shall put on immortality.

Last trumpet when it sounds for the departed, because the context is for the departed in Christ and not the still alive, because their trumpet meaning calling to the wedding supper of the lamb has not yet sounded, when the thief (death) comes on that day and our to destroy their earthly bodies.

The last trumpet here is the calling for that departed individual at the Lord's Appearing. This trumpet is not to be confused with the seventh trumpet sounded by christ at the end of the harvest when he declares time no longer.

The next versus in Matthew chapter 24 you gave me, I will be addressed in another post shortly God willing.

 

[Giantbear]

Just reading plainly, it surely seems to say that there will be some who remain who will be changed.

Also, I struggle with this one anyway, and you don't directly address it in your post, but how do you fit in Matt 24?

Matthew 24:13-51

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

The END as far as the faithful is concerned is when they keep the faith until death. This is what every prophesying Christian is obligated to do. (Revelation 2:10)

The fact of the matter is many faithful have departed from this earthly life, as Daniel was told using the same defining word, that is END.

Daniel 12:13
"As for you, go your way until the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days, you will rise again to receive the inheritance set aside for you."

The end is the end of a faithful's time in the earthly body.

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Now this end is given a different context to the previous use of the word that I described above in detail, because here this end alludes to the end of the great harvest when all that was written in the book of life to be reaped by The Lord has already been reaped, as the indicator is that the gospel has already been preaching in all the world.

Obviously the context of the previous verse that used the word end can not apply to this verse because it addresses the individual and since many faithful individuals have already passed on from this life, the context of end only makes sense when tied to the thief (death) that comes on a day and hour that no man knows to take away their earthly lives, then the end has come for that individual.

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

The abomination that maketh desolate is Satan incarnate in flesh within the earthly realm as prophesied in Isaiah chapter 14 (read all of it in context to Satan who is the Assyrian king of Babylon, where Babylon is the world). When Satan comes into the world, Christ warns the faithful to run and hide and never come back to where you had previously been. In essence it would be particularly hard for the child bearing, especially in the winter as food is scarce and especially on days where you want rest, which is what the sabbath spiritually represents to the New Covenant believer and unfortunately there will be no reprieve nor rest, it will be days of restlessness and great panic as the devil is now come down with great fury because he knows his time is short.

The abomination that maketh desolate is the beast of the bottomless Pitt aka Satan who emerges with lying signs and wonders to decieve the masses to worship him as the mother of all idols. He will pretend to be Christ. However the true spiritual end day church of Philadelphia will be delivered from this hour of temptation by not falling for the lie that encompasses the Strong Delusion that is the second coming doctrine and for that purpose Revelation places the Satan as the false Christ who perpetrates mass world wide genocide of the church through what is called the great tribulation of the end day spiritual church.

Saint Malachy's (Catholic Saint) prophesy states that:

Malachy's final words:

In the final persecution of the Holy Roman Church there will reign Peter the Roman, who will feed his flock among many tribulations; after which the seven-hilled city will be destroyed and the dreadful Judge will judge the people.

Saint Malachy pointed to the end time Elijah as the Peter the Roman who will feed this end day spiritual church during the great tribulation. This end day church is symbolised as the seven hilled city, where seven represents God's church. The destruction of this end day church will be at he behest of the beast of the bottomless Pitt aka Satan (Isaiah 14). These faithful will have been delivered from the hour of temptation and ashes their robes by the blood of the lamb of a God as they accepted death for Christ's name sake. Then we have the dreadful judge pouring our the vials of judgement without mixture after the sixth seal is opened.

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved:but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

This great tribulation coincides with the end of the great harvest of God where the end day church is ready to be delivered up to God (reaped). This is a time where after the sixth seal is opened those that remain of the end day church, who are called the elect and in Revelation of John the blessed ones who stay until the 1335 symbolic days.

During this time, destruction according to Malachi chapter 4 is unleashed upon all the inhabitants of earth who had pleasure in the whole sale slaughter of the end day church of God, by the opening of the heavens to unleash a devouring fire. That is why it is written that unless God shortened those days for the sake of the elect who remain from the end day church, that no flesh would remain alive.

Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Many fallen angelic beings will manifest claiming to be messiahs of all the different religions and will try to even deceive the very elect as the whole world is turned upside down in a panic stricken atmosphere.

Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth:behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

Jesus warns these elect that at no time are you to go to the places where these false messiahs manifest on earth. At this point in time the beast of the bottomless Pitt is revealed at the 1290 symbolic days after the martyrdom of the end day church at the 1260 symbolic days, so that these false Christ's can walk in unopposed by the. Holy Spirit church, meaning the world is open for deception. In Thessalonians versus it is a necessity for the beats of the bottomless Pitt to remove opposition before revealing himself.

For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

This paints a world that pretty much is offered up to death, in context to the message that if God didn't shorten those days for the sake of the elect there would be no flesh left. So the visual perspective of what earth looks like at this point of time is utterly destroyed rolling to and fro and quaking with unburied bodies scattered all over because there remains no one to bury the dead. Joel chapter 2:1-12 paints a dire picture of earths outlook at this coming of the Son of Man. In 1 Corinthians 15 Saint Paul writes that the last enemy death must be destroyed meaning an end of all life as Adam Ones.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Basically our earth and the solar system is portrayed here as a complete right off. It is all over for all Adam Ones, for they will never reign again as stated in Isaiah 14.

Off course they shall see the Son of the Man in heaven because they are all dying off left right and centre from the plagues tart are coming upon the inhabitants of earth. This is the same statement that was given to the high priest who was told by Jesus the following:

Matthew 26:64
Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said:nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Notice the high priest is one who also saw the sign of the Son of man in heaven:and then mourned, and he also saw the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. This happened when the high priest died to be brought before the judgement seat of Christ.

Saint Stephen also saw this sign when he also died. So this sign that all the tribes of earth will see is an after death sign that is only seen by the departed and so the context of the Matthew verse where you have the earth literally being destroyed is many Adam Ones being offered onto death in what the Old Testament declares as the days of great slaughter coo indent with the great days of battle when God unleashes plagues after plagues until hardly any flesh is left alive. So during this time all these departed are facing up to The Lord in bitterness and mourning because whilst they were in the body they had rejected him. According to scripture anyone that rejects Jesus is also said to pierce him, for that fact of what he done for them on the cross at Calvary.

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

See The Lord here is depicted as the seventh angel who sounds the seventh trumpet as declared in Revelation of John. The elect are the last good tasting wine to be offered/reaped to the wedding supper of the lamb of God at the end of the great harvest of God and those that are left have no part in the resurrection of the dead and are damned to the lake of fire.

Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

This further emphasises that it is all about the great harvest and how God reaps his fruit from his vineyard (wine yard). The context of the reaping had already started back during the first century church where Jesus tells them that this generation shall not pass, until matters concerning the reaping commences from that time onward and that it tied to the resurrection of the dead mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15.

Now take a step back because the context has changed now, Jesus is now going to talk about the reaping, how it is done and when it is done starting from that particular first century generation.

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

This day and hour is linked to the very first verse at the top in context to an individual's end when they depart from this life. Only God knows when a person is destined to die. This is not the context of the previous versus about the end of the great harvest, but actually the start of the great harvest leading up to the end. The realm for this is that at the end of the great harvest the angels do know when the end is because Jesus shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. obviously the context of not knowing the day and hour neither do the angels is not related to the end of the great harvest nearing the end of the world but rather corresponds to the Lord's Appearing when a person dies and is brought before the judgement seat of Christ to be judged for the works done in the body whether good or bad.

Continue next post please.

 

[Giantbear]

Watch therefore:for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready:for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites:there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

All these versus are in context for those who are reaped to everlasting life to be with the risen lord as his sheep compared to those who are sent of into outer darkness, where they shall weep and gnash their teeth. So these versus are a summary of the process of reaping from the great harvest from the start to the finish when the individual departs after the thief (death) comes on that day and hour for him, meaning time is up (midnight is symbolic of the middle of the night). Then after these depart from the earthly realm after their bodies are dissolved then they face the first judgement the separation of the sheep and the goats. That is the context of the above versus and are directly tied to the resurrection of the dead that was initiated by Christ when he arose taking with him the old covenant first fruits (symbolic 144,000).

This is the Lord's appearing where the faithful is warned to be watchful, meaning to be vigilant in faith unto the end meaning death. So to answer your question of one is taken and the other one left behind is within the context of the great harvest reaping at the Lord's Appearing when the individual departed sees the sign of the Son of a Man in heaven and is judged for the works in the body and either be bidden to the wedding of the lamb or basically left behind in outer darkness as a disembodied soul until the end of the great harvest when Christ sounds the seventh trumpet declaring time no longer as he sends his angels to rapture out the last remaining elect from the earthly body to the heavenly body to be with The Lord forever.

Basically once the thief (death) comes for a person on a day and hour they know not when they are going to die, they would want to be taken meaning reaped as a fruit of the harvest which includes them as guests to the wedding of the lamb through the resurrection of the dead that Christ initiated almost 2000 years ago.

 

[Giantbear]