What About Those Who Never Heard?

[sunlover1]

True enough.

How about applying Pascal's wager to this debate?

That's how I feel about MOST of these debates.

What's the risk of assuming we have no additional responsibility for our salvation?

It might be best to simply go through Scripture and look at all of
the "if/then"s.

What's the risk of working your behind off trying to know, love and serve Jesus with all your might?

Now THAT Sounds more like true love than work.

 

[Eucharistic Adoration]

That's how I feel about MOST of these debates.


It might be best to simply go through Scripture and look at all of
the "if/then"s.



Now THAT Sounds more like true love than work.

You say tomato, I say...

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

You say tomato, I say...

You say potatoe, I say

 

[sunlover1]

You say tomato, I say...

... a little prayer?


YouTube - Aretha Franklin - I Say A Little Prayer

 

[ArcticFox]

Their intention is less important than what they actually do. They must distort some scriptures to conform them to their dogma as applied to other scriptures.



It doesn't work for Calvinists or anyone else.

Scripture must be understood through apostolic teachings and the understanding of the Church which gave you the scriptures.

If you want to know what a book means, ask the author.




Not at all. A merciful God created us with the freedom and ability to follow him and to be with him for eternity. He wants us all to make the right choice but he knows that since we are free some of us will choose the wrong path.




They don't, as I have demonstrated.


HELLO!

Honestly, you aren't giving me much to go on. You are basically just saying, "Well I don't think so."

I have little interest in your personal opinion. I have great interest in the Bible's teachings on the matter.

We can both give our pathetic, silly little human opinions to each other all day long, but unless you can show me via the Scriptures that my understanding of the truth is wrong, you are nothing more than a clanging cymbal or a noisy gong... And one that I'd rather not listen to.

 

[ArcticFox]

True enough.

How about applying Pascal's wager to this debate?

What's the risk of assuming we have no additional responsibility for our salvation?( Visualize yourself saying, "But Lord, when did I see you hungry?")

What's the risk of working your behind off trying to know, love and serve Jesus with all your might?

Wow, HUGE, HUGE, HUGE misunderstanding of Calvinism if you think in any way that it removes responsibility in our salvation.

HUGE misunderstanding. You are not even qualified to have a debate on the topic if you think that, and you're wasting my time.

Philippians 2:12-13:

Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

I have to say that I've grown extremely tired of answering people who have little to even NO idea what Calvinists believe. If these arrogant dissenters would for even one moment open their mind to the possibility that their horribly skewed understanding of another brother's beliefs is wrong, they might begin to start a decent discussion on the matter.

Until then, we can only shake our heads at said ignorance

 

[Perceivence]

ArcticFox, what do you have to say about John 9: 41 and its parallels (John 15:22, 24)?

 

[Zoness]

Would someone tell me what Calvinists believe? So far if you contradict them you simply "DON'T UNDERSTAND" So eh...what's so hard to get?

 

[ArcticFox]

Would someone tell me what Calvinists believe? So far if you contradict them you simply "DON'T UNDERSTAND" So eh...what's so hard to get?

I just want to say for clarity that since Zoness has a habit of starting a discussion, then abandoning it and accusing me of "baiting" for wanting to continue, I won't be answering anything for Zoness.

No offense, don't know the person myself, but I felt it was only fair to point such out, before the very typical and easily predictable argument tactics that would be used if I remained silent w/ no explanation.

Perceivence

ArcticFox, what do you have to say about John 9: 41 and its parallels (John 15:22, 24)?

Nothing in particular. Do you feel that I should have some answer to a particular point of contention with Calvinistic beliefs?

 

[Doveaman]

What About Those Who Never Heard?

Never heard?

How is that possible?

 

[Zoness]

Anyone going to define Calvinism so the argument stays valid? Anyone?

 

[Hammster]

Never heard?

How is that possible?

Let's see. One the day of Jesus' resurrection, there was probably at least one little old man in China, who was on his death bed. He died later that afternoon. I am going to go out on a limb here and say that he probably didn't hear about Jesus.

 

[Perceivence]

Zoness

Calvinism is usually explained or defined using the TULIP acronym. I haven't explained it in a while, so I might be wrong in a place or two, miss out an important point or three, or stress something that isn't really important, but here goes. (ArcticFox or someone else can correct me as necessary.)

Total Depravity -- As a result of the Fall, people are slaves of sin with no desire to love or serve God. As a result, no man will even want salvation if God does not give him that desire.
Unconditional Election -- God chooses those who are saved in a manner that does not depend on anything they have done.
Limited Atonement -- Jesus did not die for everyone; he only died for those who will be saved.
Irresistible Grace -- God's grace cannot be refused. Every person to whom God extends his saving grace is saved.
Perseverance of the Saints -- Once saved, a person cannot be lost. One cannot lose her salvation.

Check it:

Calvinism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

ArcticFox

Nothing in particular. Do you feel that I should have some answer to a particular point of contention with Calvinistic beliefs?

Yes. EucharisticAdoration mentioned John 9: 41 in this post but I don't think you addressed it. Can I can guess how you interpret it? That Jesus is saying if he hadn't come to this earth to do what he did, then we would've been with excuse, but since he came we are without excuse regardless of if we've heard of him or not.

 

[Zoness]

Zoness

Calvinism is usually explained or defined using the TULIP acronym. I haven't explained it in a while, so I might be wrong in a place or two, miss out an important point or three, or stress something that isn't really important, but here goes. (ArcticFox or someone else can correct me as necessary.)

Total Depravity -- As a result of the Fall, people are slaves of sin with no desire to love or serve God. As a result, no man will even want salvation if God does not give him that desire.
Unconditional Election -- God chooses those who are saved in a manner that does not depend on anything they have done.
Limited Atonement -- Jesus did not die for everyone; he only died for those who will be saved.
Irresistible Grace -- God's grace cannot be refused. Every person to whom God extends his saving grace is saved.
Perseverance of the Saints -- Once saved, a person cannot be lost. One cannot lose her salvation.

Check it:

Calvinism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

ArcticFox



Yes. EucharisticAdoration mentioned John 9: 41 in this post but I don't think you addressed it. Can I can guess how you interpret it? That Jesus is saying if he hadn't come to this earth to do what he did, then we would've been with excuse, but since he came we are without excuse regardless of if we've heard of him or not.

Let me be the first to thank you for the post, here it is the actual stance on Calvinism. Basically I actually knew all of this but I didn't want to hear the argument "that is misrepresenting Calvinism". Reps for your work!

Total Depravity - Raised in the Catholic Church I can agree with the sister doctrine of original sin.
Unconditional Election - No
Limited Atonement - No
Irresistible Grace - I'll compromise on this one; based on my thinking that if you want Jesus in your life (truly, for the sake of specifics) then the transformation will work in your life.
Preseverance of the Saints - As cool as it would be, I have to disagree.

Now that I have my formal position sorted out for ArcticFox we can have a discussion I put the knives away.

 

[Hammster]

Zoness

Calvinism is usually explained or defined using the TULIP acronym. I haven't explained it in a while, so I might be wrong in a place or two, miss out an important point or three, or stress something that isn't really important, but here goes. (ArcticFox or someone else can correct me as necessary.)

Total Depravity -- As a result of the Fall, people are slaves of sin with no desire to love or serve God. As a result, no man will even want salvation if God does not give him that desire.
Unconditional Election -- God chooses those who are saved in a manner that does not depend on anything they have done.
Limited Atonement -- Jesus did not die for everyone; he only died for those who will be saved.
Irresistible Grace -- God's grace cannot be refused. Every person to whom God extends his saving grace is saved.
Perseverance of the Saints -- Once saved, a person cannot be lost. One cannot lose her salvation.

Check it:

Calvinism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I will say, as a Calvinist, that as a basic working definition of Calvinism, that will do.

 

[Doveaman]

Never heard?

How is that possible?

Let's see. One the day of Jesus' resurrection, there was probably at least one little old man in China, who was on his death bed. He died later that afternoon. I am going to go out on a limb here and say that he probably didn't hear about Jesus.

You are making up an excuse for the "old man in China". But Paul says he has no excuse.

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, (I {Jesus} am...the truth...John 14:6.)...

19 What may be known about God (the truth) is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities — his eternal power and divine nature — have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been created, so that men are without excuse...Rom 1:18-20.

According to you the "old man in China" has an excuse.

According to Paul he has no excuse, because "Men are without excuse."