What about these men?

[Albion]

But that's the direction you have taken it.

Actually, I've tried several times to explain that it's punk as a thesis.

 

[Patmos]

So Patmos, which division of Calvinism is the truth?

You are asking me! an Arminian.

Though I do not like the view that God predestined, infallibly, that Adam would sin on the prescribed date and time - Hyper Calvinism, it is IMO consistent.

I have never understood the single predestinarian view - not hyper Calvinism - that God predestined the elect but passed over the non elect. I don't get it. This is no different IMO to the hyper view, that God predestined the reprobate ( I.e God is the author of sin). It seems to me to just be a work around which never works. If it did work then there would not have been the debate we are in for the last 1500 years.

If man was given no choice whatsoever, made so he could only sin, made with a corrupt will, then to me this is much the same as the hyper view.

So, I think both are wrong.

No doubt someone will reply with "So in your system.... blah blah blah". And they would be wrong.

Jacob Arminus was a committed reformer. He was given the onerous job to come to a conclusion about suprlapsarianism ( i.e explicit acknowledgement that God predestined/made/forced it such that Adam would sin at the prescribed predestined moment).

Having considered this, JA conclude this would make God the author of sin and rejected the notion. The rest is history.

 

[Job8]

Since one of the main proponents of Calvinism (Spurgeon), called Calvinism the gospel, how would those who believe the same, consider anyone saved who rejects this gospel?

The funny thing is that many of Spurgeon's sermons do not reflect Calvinism at all. Yet he insisted he was a Calvinist.

 

[Patmos]

The funny thing is that many of Spurgeon's sermons do not reflect Calvinism at all. Yet he insisted he was a Calvinist.

Absolutely correct.

Spurgeons's Calvinism did not reflect John Gill, his predecessors version.

 

[nobdysfool]

There are so many divisions of Calvinism, it's no wonder nobody can understand what they believe. So, to what division do you belong? Are other divisions telling us falsehoods? It seems if God predestines all these divisions, He is the author of confusion.

Are all the people on your side of one mind? Do they all march in lock-step, believing exactly the same thing, down to the smallest detail? Why do you expect that of Calvinists?

I am not going to go into detail about what I believe, if for no other reason that the attitude that comes across in your questions, which always seem to have a "gotcha!" attached to them. You don't really want to know, you just want to find more things to twist and bear false witness about, because your goal isn't to learn, it's to destroy Calvinism by any means necessary. That is abundantly plain in your posts, so no, I don't have to divine the thoughts and intents of your heart and mind to know this, you're wearing it on your shirtsleeves. You're putting them on a billboard.

All I will say is that I hold many of the Calvinist points, but differ with them on a few things. Calvinists are almost always cessationists. I am not. I am not entirely convinced on Limited Atonement, or even Definite Atonement. The T and U, I agree with, the I and P, I agree with. I am not going to elaborate any more on that.

That's as much as you're going to get from me, until your attitude changes and you stop bearing false witness about what I say.

 

[ClothedInGrace]

Thank you for answering CIG. I take you believe it is not what one believes that saves him. Most who left Calvinism, have rejected its teachings. They see the faults and shortcomings of Calvinism.

Since one of the main proponents of Calvinism (Spurgeon), called Calvinism the gospel, how would those who believe the same, consider anyone saved who rejects this gospel?

I believe what Spurgeon mean't is that Calvinism is basically a Reformed understanding of the Gospel; Calvinism is most certainly about the Gospel, but it itself is not the Gospel. Also, while Spurgeon was a great preacher, I don't consider him nor any man an authority on the subject. I was not saved a Calvinist, but rather someone with a simple belief that I was a sinner and Christ was my savior. I started believing what is called Calvinism a couple years after my conversion, and I was helped along by a multitude of teachers, but ultimately I decided for myself what I believed the Bible taught.

 

[Patmos]

but ultimately I decided for myself what I believed .

Really ?
No comment necessary.

 

[ClothedInGrace]

Really ?
No comment necessary.

What I'm saying is I don't blindly follow people. Spurgeon and Calvin aren't my authority; the Bible is.

 

[EmSw]

The funny thing is that many of Spurgeon's sermons do not reflect Calvinism at all. Yet he insisted he was a Calvinist.

So, who holds the true Calvinism? Who is telling the truth?

 

[EmSw]

Are all the people on your side of one mind? Do they all march in lock-step, believing exactly the same thing, down to the smallest detail? Why do you expect that of Calvinists?

I am not going to go into detail about what I believe, if for no other reason that the attitude that comes across in your questions, which always seem to have a "gotcha!" attached to them. You don't really want to know, you just want to find more things to twist and bear false witness about, because your goal isn't to learn, it's to destroy Calvinism by any means necessary. That is abundantly plain in your posts, so no, I don't have to divine the thoughts and intents of your heart and mind to know this, you're wearing it on your shirtsleeves. You're putting them on a billboard.

All I will say is that I hold many of the Calvinist points, but differ with them on a few things. Calvinists are almost always cessationists. I am not. I am not entirely convinced on Limited Atonement, or even Definite Atonement. The T and U, I agree with, the I and P, I agree with. I am not going to elaborate any more on that.

That's as much as you're going to get from me, until your attitude changes and you stop bearing false witness about what I say.

The other side of Calvinism believes in autonomous free will, so man freely decides what he wants to believe, and not predestined to believe what God has planned for them.

 

[EmSw]

I believe what Spurgeon mean't is that Calvinism is basically a Reformed understanding of the Gospel; Calvinism is most certainly about the Gospel, but it itself is not the Gospel. Also, while Spurgeon was a great preacher, I don't consider him nor any man an authority on the subject. I was not saved a Calvinist, but rather someone with a simple belief that I was a sinner and Christ was my savior. I started believing what is called Calvinism a couple years after my conversion, and I was helped along by a multitude of teachers, but ultimately I decided for myself what I believed the Bible taught.

So CIG, you aren't a full-fledged Calvinist. It seems Calvinists get to freely choose what they want to believe, just as any other belief does. And, I have no problem with that. This goes right along with what I believe, in that man has been given the free will to believe as he chooses and wills.

 

[ClothedInGrace]

So CIG, you aren't a full-fledged Calvinist. It seems Calvinists get to freely choose what they want to believe, just as any other belief does. And, I have no problem with that. This goes right along with what I believe, in that man has been given the free will to believe as he chooses and wills.

I simply don't believe in the idea of free will, because we are all bound to many things: truth and righteous, and in most cases ignorance and sin. A man can be saved by God's will but that doesn't mean he will be a Calvinist, because perhaps his life experience and personal understanding of the scripture (which are God ordained) might lead him to hold a different view. A Calvinist doesn't just wake up one day and go "okay, let's use free will and be Arminian." Honestly though, this is being quite pedantic, and I could care less what you believe about all of this.

 

[EmSw]

I simply don't believe in the idea of free will, because we are all bound to many things: truth and righteous, and in most cases ignorance and sin. A man can be saved by God's will but that doesn't mean he will be a Calvinist, because perhaps his life experience and personal understanding of the scripture (which are God ordained) might lead him to hold a different view. A Calvinist doesn't just wake up one day and go "okay, let's use free will and be Arminian." Honestly though, this is being quite pedantic, and I could care less what you believe about all of this.

I see you are a different breed of Calvinist, with a little attitude. Like I said before, Calvinism is like a box of chocolates.

Why does God ordain His elect to believe different things? Which division of Calvinism is true CIG? They can't all be true, or they would believe and teach the same thing, and not live in confusion of beliefs.

 

[ClothedInGrace]

I see you are a different breed of Calvinist, with a little attitude. Like I said before, Calvinism is like a box of chocolates.

Why does God ordain His elect to believe different things? Which division of Calvinism is true CIG? They can't all be true, or they would believe and teach the same thing, and not live in confusion of beliefs.

Who knows why God ordains such things? All I know is that he does. My theory is that it is for discussion among the body of Christ until Jesus comes and makes everything clear. If we were perfect now, then those with a free will theology could claim some kind of glory for themselves, but Christ will be the only one with glory on that day when all is made clear.

I'd say the true division of Calvinism is the division that is most Biblical, and that is what I strive to believe. The very same question could be asked of Arminianism, or of whatever theology it is that you believe.

 

[nobdysfool]

I see you are a different breed of Calvinist, with a little attitude. Like I said before, Calvinism is like a box of chocolates.

Why does God ordain His elect to believe different things? Which division of Calvinism is true CIG? They can't all be true, or they would believe and teach the same thing, and not live in confusion of beliefs.

OF WHAT CONCERN IS IT TO YOU? WHY DO YOU KEEP FLOGGING THIS STRAW MAN YOU HAVE CREATED?

LET IT GO!!!

 

[nobdysfool]

The other side of Calvinism believes in autonomous free will, so man freely decides what he wants to believe, and not predestined to believe what God has planned for them.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Job8]

So, who holds the true Calvinism? Who is telling the truth?

There are still a few diehard Calvinists out there. As to who is telling the truth, that is a matter of comparing what preachers say with what Scripture says. If the Bible says that "whosoever will may come" but a preacher says something else, then you will know what is true and what isn't.

 

[EmSw]

Who knows why God ordains such things? All I know is that he does. My theory is that it is for discussion among the body of Christ until Jesus comes and makes everything clear. If we were perfect now, then those with a free will theology could claim some kind of glory for themselves, but Christ will be the only one with glory on that day when all is made clear.

I wonder if a lot of people want to know why God ordains His people to believe lies. This is inconsistent with His Divine Essence of Truth. Why not set your heart to seek the scriptures, and humbly ask God why He ordains some to believe truth and some falsehoods? The true church is NEVER based upon lies, divisions, and deceptions.

No one, who believes in free will, has EVER claimed glory for themselves. Unless, of course, they are totally filled with self, or a lunatic.

I'd say the true division of Calvinism is the division that is most Biblical, and that is what I strive to believe. The very same question could be asked of Arminianism, or of whatever theology it is that you believe.

So, would you say, Calvinism is based upon truth and upon lies? Would you say some in Calvinism are telling lies? For what reason would you say God ordained these lies in His church?

 

[EmSw]

OF WHAT CONCERN IS IT TO YOU? WHY DO YOU KEEP FLOGGING THIS STRAW MAN YOU HAVE CREATED?

LET IT GO!!!

NF, which division of Calvinism is teaching the truth? Surely you know.

 

[EmSw]

There are still a few diehard Calvinists out there. As to who is telling the truth, that is a matter of comparing what preachers say with what Scripture says. If the Bible says that "whosoever will may come" but a preacher says something else, then you will know what is true and what isn't.

Thank you Job for your answer, without belittling others. I like the passage you provided from Mark 8:34.