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LDS What about the other standard works? (D&C and POGP)
- Thread starter dzheremi
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This is not an answer to my question. Nonetheless, I will address it: Christ has always with the Father. The Father was always the Father, and the Son always the Son.
Do you not believe that the Father was always Christ's Father?
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Oh, I believe you believe it..but do you really expect me to believe it when you refuse to answer my question?
Q What was Jesus prior to becoming the son of god? Why will you not answer that question?
A ______________________________________________________________________
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You have been told this answer repeatedly: there is no "prior" to Christ being the Son of God. Your question is flawed.
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So, the son of god always was...then was born of a heavenly mother...and became..the son of god? Can you see the problem?
Secondly, the bible says there is only one God. That's what it say's in Isaiah 43 as well as other passages...now along comes Jesus....born of a heavenly mother...is that when Jesus became God? A second God with a common "goal" so to speek?
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Again, your understanding is flawed. You keep using the word "born", which in our limited human understanding typically involves a physical screaming child coming out of a birth canal. This is not the case.
Which I have repeatedly said LDS believe. You have ignored me.
Again, there is no Jesus "becoming" God. There is no "second God".
** New Policy for this conversation: If I have answered your question already, I refuse to answer it again. I am tired of being ignored**
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But, but, but...you said in a previous post Jesus was God.. a second god...not God the father..just the same in agreement.
Either that or you keep flip flopping.
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If the connectors are not from a shared substance (an idea foreign to the Bible) but one in unity.
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Any individual who is perfect in righteousness has the authority and power of God, Jesus in all stages of his progression has been perfect in righteousness and so always part of the Elohim(s).
The Bible teaches that we too are gods, the offspring of God. But since we are not perfect in our righteousness as of yet we do not have the authority of God.
Having said that let's look at how you have set the Bible against itself.
You said; Useing John 1 you have assumed it means "The Word (Jesus) was, is, always was and never wasn't God"
But what did Jesus say about that;
Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
John 17: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh,
John 5:
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
If Jesus has always been God then why did the power and authority need to be given to him? He would have always had it???
John 14: 28 .....I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
John 20: 17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
If Jesus and the Father are one unit then how can the Father be greater than he is? If God is this being that fills the universe and is everywhere then how is it Jesus needs to ascend to him? Wouldn't He be right there? How can he go to a place which does not exist?
How is it he is his own God and Father?
Heb 1: 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things,
If Christ has always been God then how can he be an heir? All things would already belong to him!
Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they....he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
How is it Jesus was made, wouldn't he have created the angels? Why do they have to be told to worship him?
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
What need was there for an anointing if he was always God, why is he anointing himself?
I'm waiting for your answer!
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Didn't we talk about the kenosis in a previous thread? Where Jesus who is God from the eternity past empties Himself? God became a bondservant? Have you always ignored Phil 2?
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Peter1000
Well-Known Member
I did, and only one of all the scriptures that were given even came close to the subject of 'eternal sonship', and that was Hebrews 13:8, but the author then destroyed this scripture by using the words, 'seems to indicate' and 'seems to imply', so it became fairly meaningless.
I thought the most interesting of the scriptures was Colossians 1:13-16 which says in verse 15 that Jesus is the 'firstborn of every creature'? I am surprised that you would use this scripture to defend the doctrine of 'the eternal sonship'.
This scripture is telling us that Jesus was the first thing created by God. How does that fit into your eternal sonship doctrine? Colossians 1:15 sounds a lot like
Revelations 3:14 where it says that Jesus is the beginning of the creations of God?
Your scriptures tell us that Jesus was the firstborn of the creation
Your scriptures tell us that Jesus created the world
Your scriptures tell us that Jesus came forth from the Father'
The scriptures only tell us of the sonship from the creation of the earth, not the billions of years before the creation of the earth. You can imply and guess and all that, but nothing scriptural before the creation of the earth, except that before the world was created by Jesus, he was the firstborn of all creations.
Interesting, don't you think.
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What you have done is take your prior belief and forced it upon Phil 2, ya have to be careful interpreting this because for a thousand years it has been reshaped to fit the Trinity view but Paul did not know the trinity it wasn't developed until about a hundred years after he died.
Paul starts with " 2 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ." He separates the Father from the Son
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery(does not take away from) to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation/was not vain, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
We are to think as Christ would, who being in the form (external appearance) of God. Man too is made in the image of God.
'And he thought it not robbery to be equal with God'
The word there could be "to agree with God" after all he said the Father was greater than himself and said he could nothing but the will of the Father.
But we'll leave it equal. It's okay to aspire to be like God.
Jesus was the spirit Yahweh he left the presence of the Father and came to this earth to take upon him flesh. We also leave the presence of God and take upon us flesh. Jesus came as our servant to bring us our atonement, he was obedient to his Father and went to the cross.
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
We like Christ must humble ourselves and be obedient to the end of our lives, for we too are " the sons of God" ,
Paul writes
Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.
Yea, and if I be offered upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I joy, and rejoice with you all.
Where Christ sacrificed himself on the cross our sacrifice is to serve others, to preach the Gospel and labor in it.
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