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What about the DNA evidence?

Subduction Zone

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What quote came from that book? You do realize that even if the quote is accurate if you misrepresent the author by quoting out of context that that is still a lie. I also will need the page number. I don't need the paragraph.

Once again, you are the one skipping the duties that you must do if you want to quote these people.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Only creationists tend to lie that way. Evolutionists do not quote mine. Find me an example of an evolutionist lying by quote mining. The only time they do it that I am aware of is when they give an example of quote mining. For example "There is no God." from The Bible.

There, I gave you the source, find out for yourself how it is wrong. Now this one is easy since it has been used countless times. But if you were not aware of the source you can see how that is not a good enough reference. In these days when quotes are linkable there is not excuse not to.

You are supposed to be a Christian. That means your behavior is supposed to be above reproach. This behavior has not been so. I will not do your homework for you. You know how to do proper quotes. Please do them.




You are acting just like any other liar that has been caught in the act. I am not doing your homework for you. Quote properly.






I will check out this one you have listed. If you are quote mining, shame on you. And one non-quote mined quote does not make the rest legitimate. Your statement is reportable. I have not called you a liar, I have pointed out that you are probably using lying sources. You should know that that is very close to committing that sin.


And btw you mean people who lie, like evolutions felt the need to do in a court of law?

Piltdown Man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Please do look them all up, you will find every single one says exactly what I said it did.

Yah well, I never said I was a good christian and perfect. And Jesus said turn the other cheek, not bend over and take it up the %^$.

And the bible does say there is no god, it all depends on the context you would attempt to tell me that meant. And don't try only creationists story line, you and I both know that is totally untruthful. Every person has an agenda, and every person bends the evidence to suit that purpose. You, me, even the so-called experts. It's human nature.
 
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Subduction Zone

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And btw you mean people who lie, like evolutions felt the need to do in a court of law?

Piltdown Man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Please do look them all up, you will find every single one says exactly what I said it did.

Yah well, I never said I was a good christian and perfect. And Jesus said turn the other cheek, not bend over and take it up the %^$.



Please, now you are being foolish. The perpetrator of a fraud can hardly be called an evolutionist. Is a person that perpetrates a Christian fraud a true Christian? There have been thousand, if not millions of them. I can think of only two frauds in the whole history of evolution. The Piltdown man was the only one of significance and did not help evolution in any way.

And I am not suggesting that you bend over, another reportable offense. I am suggesting you argue properly. Use proper sources, don't quote mine, don't use straw man arguments. If your beliefs are true you should be able to debate without performing those sins. Once again, you will not find evolutionists doing that.

Your Piltdown Man example is a terrible failure for you. I could make just as "good" of an argument against Christianity by siting Jim Jones.
 
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stevevw

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But what is a fraud, it may not stand out as much as the piltdown case but isn't filling in fossils so when they make the model it suits the look they want when the evidence is that there was no way to correctly determine whether it looked like an ape or a man. Isnt making out that a new fossils is a new species when there was no real evidence when it could have been variation within the same kind.
 
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Subduction Zone

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But what is a fraud, it may not stand out as much as the piltdown case but isn't filling in fossils so when they make the model it suits the look they want when the evidence is that there was no way to correctly determine whether it looked like an ape or a man. Isnt making out that a new fossils is a new species when there was no real evidence when it could have been variation within the same kind.

No, there can be honest mistakes and there are frauds. Now there is one finding that you have posted more than once, but that is only one finding and does not seem to be too terribly Outrageous to me. Remember the popular press almost always get science wrong. Until I hear more analysis of this I will remain skeptical. From my understanding Homo erectus was previously thought to go back to 1.75 million years. This one only pushes that back to 1.8 mya.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Please, now you are being foolish. The perpetrator of a fraud can hardly be called an evolutionist. Is a person that perpetrates a Christian fraud a true Christian? There have been thousand, if not millions of them. I can think of only two frauds in the whole history of evolution. The Piltdown man was the only one of significance and did not help evolution in any way.

And I am not suggesting that you bend over, another reportable offense. I am suggesting you argue properly. Use proper sources, don't quote mine, don't use straw man arguments. If your beliefs are true you should be able to debate without performing those sins. Once again, you will not find evolutionists doing that.

Your Piltdown Man example is a terrible failure for you. I could make just as "good" of an argument against Christianity by siting Jim Jones.

Yes, I am sure he was a Christian and presented the evidence in the court to dissuade all evolutionists to the folly of evolution.

What about all the baby dinosaur they claimed supported evolution? Mistakes yes, but still constantly brought up as intermediate species. I don't know how many times I've been told Archaeopteryx is an example of a transitory species. Scientists do not think so, only evolutionists on forums.

PLOS ONE: Was Dinosaurian Physiology Inherited by Birds? Reconciling Slow Growth in Archaeopteryx
Archaeopteryx Was Not Very Bird-like: Inside The First Bird, Surprising Signs Of A Dinosaur

Twisting data seems to equally apply to evolutionists. We were constantly assured for 80 years that gradualism was supported in the fossil record, a blatant lie. So along came punctuated equilibrium to save the day. Except that is even more far-fetched, as if animals know in 20 million years they are going to need an eye, or a limb, or a wing. We see neither one in the DNA evidence, you know this as well as I do if you know anything about genetics. The Darwinian tree has been falsified, as has the theory of evolution. That people refuse to accept this just shows they are practicing a religion, not following a scientific theory.

I admit my religion is just that, religion. Why can''t you do the same?
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Subduction Zone

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Yes, I am sure he was a Christian and presented the evidence in the court to dissuade all evolutionists to the folly of evolution.

What about all the baby dinosaur they claimed supported evolution? Mistakes yes, but still constantly brought up as intermediate species. I don't know how many times I've been told Archaeopteryx is an example of a transitory species. Scientists do not think so, only evolutionists on forums.

PLOS ONE: Was Dinosaurian Physiology Inherited by Birds? Reconciling Slow Growth in Archaeopteryx
Archaeopteryx Was Not Very Bird-like: Inside The First Bird, Surprising Signs Of A Dinosaur

Twisting data seems to equally apply to evolutionists. We were constantly assured for 80 years that gradualism was supported in the fossil record, a blatant lie. So along came punctuated equilibrium to save the day. Except that is even more far-fetched, as if animals know in 20 million years they are going to need an eye, or a limb, or a wing. We see neither one in the DNA evidence, you know this as well as I do if you know anything about genetics. The Darwinian tree has been falsified, as has the theory of evolution. That people refuse to accept this just shows they are practicing a religion, not following a scientific theory.

I admit my religion is just that, religion. Why can''t you do the same?

No, it is very hard to find a case of evolutionists twisting data. What about archaeopteryx? It would be hard to find a fossil that had both bird and dinosaur traits.

And do you know who Jim Jones was? He was a man who ran a con job and when caught killed not just himself, but many of his followers too:

Jim Jones - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I have no "religion". All the religions that I know of are based upon superstitious beliefs and nothing more.
 
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Subduction Zone

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stevevw

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No, there can be honest mistakes and there are frauds. Now there is one finding that you have posted more than once, but that is only one finding and does not seem to be too terribly Outrageous to me. Remember the popular press almost always get science wrong. Until I hear more analysis of this I will remain skeptical. From my understanding Homo erectus was previously thought to go back to 1.75 million years. This one only pushes that back to 1.8 mya.


How did they date the skulls.
 
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stevevw

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Trust me, you have no idea what you are talking about. And I already covered this article.


See that's the thing, when someone who is not a specialists such as a biologist makes a comment its like they dont know what they are talking about. It seems only the trained professionals can comment and they have this special knowledge that they know something better than anyone else.

If this is the case then i would say 90% of people cannot make a comment. But this doesn't stop people from reading and doing some research to find out from the professionals.

Your saying to trust you as you know better, its almost like religion, you want us to have faith in what you know and that it is the one true explanation and we will have to have faith that you are right.
 
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Subduction Zone

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See that's the thing, when someone who is not a specialists such as a biologist makes a comment its like they dont know what they are talking about. It seems only the trained professionals can comment and they have this special knowledge that they know something better than anyone else.

If this is the case then i would say 90% of people cannot make a comment. But this doesn't stop people from reading and doing some research to find out from the professionals.

Your saying to trust you as you know better, its almost like religion, you want us to have faith in what you know and that it is the one true explanation and we will have to have faith that you are right.


A biologist who was a specialist in this could explain this to you. I know I am not qualified. I know the people who wrote the popular article were not qualified. You are grasping at straws when you misinterpret that article. I see creationists do this all of the time.

They always look foolish afterwards.

Once again, this article only has to do with limiting the number of homo species. It in no way even hints that Homo erectus is not a proper species. In other words it supports evolution, it merely is arguing about how evolution happened.
 
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stevevw

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No, there can be honest mistakes and there are frauds. Now there is one finding that you have posted more than once, but that is only one finding and does not seem to be too terribly Outrageous to me. Remember the popular press almost always get science wrong. Until I hear more analysis of this I will remain skeptical. From my understanding Homo erectus was previously thought to go back to 1.75 million years. This one only pushes that back to 1.8 mya.


If your referring to the skulls at Georgia that is only one, there are others which i have mentioned on other forums or other people have mentioned which i agree with. One being epigenetics which i can include a link as i have already gone over this but am happy to elaborate. This link probably has more relevance to the topic than the others.

Why everything you've been told about evolution is wrong | Science | The Guardian
 
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Subduction Zone

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I skimmed that article some more and though not anti evolution he got an incredible amount of things wrong. Including that old canard of NASA scientists finding Joshua's "missing day".

When treat a whopper that big in your article it lowers the credibility of everything that follows. He is surprised by the findings of epigenetics, that what a person does in his lifetime can be passed on down to his young. Epigenetics will modify the theory of evolution at the most, it will not debunk it.
 
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stevevw

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Did you understand this article?

Here is an easy question, is it pro or anti evolution?


As best as i could i had to read it a couple of times. It seems that our environment affects what is passed down to the next generation. Stress and other factors can have an affect on our genetic makeups. I am not a biologist so i dont understand the mechanism completely otherwise i would be a biologist. But i think the average person can get an idea of the concept.

If natural selection is about filtering out the mutations that are not beneficial to adapting to the environment then if we our affected by our environment which can have a negative or positive affect to our capabilities then it is suggesting it will affect our survival. as the topic stated.

Most evolution was based on horizontal exchange. Which gives rise to a compelling philosophical puzzle: if a genome is what defines an organism, yet those organisms can swap genes freely, what does it even mean to draw a clear line between one organism and another? "It's natural to wonder," Goldenfield told New Scientist recently, "if the very concept of an organism in isolation is still valid at this level." In natural selection, we all know, the fittest win out over their rivals. But what if you can't establish clear boundaries between rivals in the first place?
 
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Subduction Zone

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As best as i could i had to read it a couple of times. It seems that our environment affects what is passed down to the next generation. Stress and other factors can have an affect on our genetic makeups. I am not a biologist so i dont understand the mechanism completely otherwise i would be a biologist. But i think the average person can get an idea of the concept.

If natural selection is about filtering out the mutations that are not beneficial to adapting to the environment then if we our affected by our environment which can have a negative or positive affect to our capabilities then it is suggesting it will affect our survival. as the topic stated.

Most evolution was based on horizontal exchange. Which gives rise to a compelling philosophical puzzle: if a genome is what defines an organism, yet those organisms can swap genes freely, what does it even mean to draw a clear line between one organism and another? "It's natural to wonder," Goldenfield told New Scientist recently, "if the very concept of an organism in isolation is still valid at this level." In natural selection, we all know, the fittest win out over their rivals. But what if you can't establish clear boundaries between rivals in the first place?


Gene swapping does not occur much beyond the single cellular stage. So I don't know where you got that from. Epigenetics can have an interesting effect on evolution. Again, it does not dispute it, all it does it to refine how it occurs.

And all creationists should remember that when it comes to scientific evidence that they do not have squat. Even if you find some evidence that is supposedly against evolution that does not make it evidence for creations.

So what evidence do you have for creation? The DNA evidence so far is one hundred percent for evolution.
 
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stevevw

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Gene swapping does not occur much beyond the single cellular stage. So I don't know where you got that from. Epigenetics can have an interesting effect on evolution. Again, it does not dispute it, all it does it to refine how it occurs.

So if we are affected by our environment sometimes and maybe more often than not for the worse how does that fit in with natural selection. I thought natural selection was keeping the beneficial mutations that allow creatures to adapt to the environment. If the environment affects the genetics of what is passed on then natural selection is not the dominate force. Other factors which seem to negate natural selection by the fact they bring a lot of other influences from the environment and the conditions we end up in. So somehow now not only do we hope that a beneficial mutation will win out but it has to in amongst many other factors that seem to have an effect right down at a genetic level.
And all creationists should remember that when it comes to scientific evidence that they do not have squat. Even if you find some evidence that is supposedly against evolution that does not make it evidence for creations.

So what evidence do you have for creation? The DNA evidence so far is one hundred percent for evolution.


The thing is evolutionists will go around saying the current understanding is proof of evolution. Yet new discoveries come along which dispute this and they still persists that this is how it is. They had transitional evolution and when it was hard to find all the transitional fossils it became punctuated evolution. They denied that catastrophe had much to do with the process and now they are saying it maybe a big part of the process.

How do you prove creation when it is a miraculous process. You can only look at what the evidence says in the fossil records and the earth itself as opposed to what evolution says. Many say the evidence for creation fit better in that there is evidence of wide spread flooding, that creation fits the genetics as much as evolution.

The proof is more to do with how the theory of evolution doesnt fit and the evidence they use is always found wrong. They are finding more and more evidence of flood catastrophe and still after 140 years we have very little fossils showing transitional changes. What they have put forward can easily fit into variation with a species. They have turned what were variations into new species and turn what is an old fossil that is hard to put the flesh on into something else.

There are anomalies such as soft tissue found in dinosaurs bones, trees up to 80 feet found going through supposed million year old layers, sudden fossilization rather than long age fossilization, evidence of skin, feathers, fluid movement in the layers that are suppose to be millions of years old and no signs of erosion between layers.

They have found whales with baleen still in tact with incredible detail in a layer between an upper and lower volcano ash layer which are suppose to be 12 million years old and the whale take up a fair amount of they layer. They have found living fossils that were suppose to be extinct and used as a transitional fossil. The sudden appearance of many complex creatures in the Cambrian period with no preceding fossils and then the disappearance of many and then their sudden reappearance. many with no preceding fossils showing where they came from. None or very little evidence of fossils below the trilobites which are complex creatures as though they come from no where.

There are many others but i have covered some in other forums and so have others. at the very least you have to say the theory is in question even if you say there is no god. Quite often i say what point is there arguing these facts when a person will believe what they believe.

I often use the example of how we are today as people. The so called highest level evolved creatures who is destroying their own environment and every other co creature on this planet. When we finish doing that and there is nothing left, what shall we do go and live on mars. No we know its wrong and we know we should be doing something but we dont. The very purpose of evolution is to adapt to the environment but we are actually destroying it and not adapting.


This site will tell you what other anomalies evolution has to answer.
http://www.detectingdesign.com/fossilrecord.html
 
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Subduction Zone

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The thing is evolutionists will go around saying the current understanding is proof of evolution. Yet new discoveries come along which dispute this and they still persists that this is how it is. They had transitional evolution and when it was hard to find all the transitional fossils it became punctuated evolution. They denied that catastrophe had much to do with the process and now they are saying it maybe a big part of the process.

I have never heard any evolutionist make that claim. Perhaps you misunderstood them. New discoveries come along and we are better able to hone our points. New discoveries so far have always supported evolution. They may have been wrong on some minor points, but the science itself has always advanced.

How do you prove creation when it is a miraculous process. You can only look at what the evidence says in the fossil records and the earth itself as opposed to what evolution says. Many say the evidence for creation fit better in that there is evidence of wide spread flooding, that creation fits the genetics as much as evolution.

No, if creationism was true there still should be some consistent scientific facts that point to it. So far there are none. The evidence in the fossil records does not support creationism. Again, if creationism was true a creationist should be able to predict what we would find in the fossil record using a creationist paradigm. No one had managed to do so yet. Without a theory or hypothesis you cannot claim that a scientific fact supports your belief by definition. The people that try to say fossils support creationism are not honest, or too terribly bright.

The proof is more to do with how the theory of evolution doesnt fit and the evidence they use is always found wrong. They are finding more and more evidence of flood catastrophe and still after 140 years we have very little fossils showing transitional changes. What they have put forward can easily fit into variation with a species. They have turned what were variations into new species and turn what is an old fossil that is hard to put the flesh on into something else.

No, there is no evidence at all that supports a flood. Not one little bit. If you have any I would love to see it. Show me how a fossil that was a mere variation was turned into a species. Don't just make baseless claims. If that is all you have all it takes to defeat you is a wave of the hands.

There are anomalies such as soft tissue found in dinosaurs bones, trees up to 80 feet found going through supposed million year old layers, sudden fossilization rather than long age fossilization, evidence of skin, feathers, fluid movement in the layers that are suppose to be millions of years old and no signs of erosion between layers.

The so called "soft tissue" was not soft. You do realize that don't you?

And please, exaggerating is a form of lying. Where can you find these 80 foot tall trees that go through millions of years worth of fossils. You do realize that the so called problem of "polystrate" fossils was solved over a hundred years ago, don't you? Once again, don't listen to lying sources.

They have found whales with baleen still in tact with incredible detail in a layer between an upper and lower volcano ash layer which are suppose to be 12 million years old and the whale take up a fair amount of they layer. They have found living fossils that were suppose to be extinct and used as a transitional fossil. The sudden appearance of many complex creatures in the Cambrian period with no preceding fossils and then the disappearance of many and then their sudden reappearance. many with no preceding fossils showing where they came from. None or very little evidence of fossils below the trilobites which are complex creatures as though they come from no where.

Someone is believing creationist sources that are not accurate. So called "living fossils" do not harm the theory of evolution in any way. They may be the same genus as species that existed many millions of years ago, but they are not the same. And now you are just throwing nonsense against the wall to see if any of it sticks. The same old creationist claims that have been shown not to be true time after time.

There are many others but i have covered some in other forums and so have others. at the very least you have to say the theory is in question even if you say there is no god. Quite often i say what point is there arguing these facts when a person will believe what they believe.

No, all you have is nonsense from lying sources. You may have the luxury of being ignorant. The sites that you got that nonsense from don't have that luxury. They know the stuff that they spread has been debunked thousands of times and they are lying by spreading them. Lastly the existence of god has nothing to do with evolution. Worldwide most Christians accept the theory of evolution. It is only in the U.S. where we see a lot of believers in it and that even bigger joke the Flud!

I often use the example of how we are today as people. The so called highest level evolved creatures who is destroying their own environment and every other co creature on this planet. When we finish doing that and there is nothing left, what shall we do go and live on mars. No we know its wrong and we know we should be doing something but we dont. The very purpose of evolution is to adapt to the environment but we are actually destroying it and not adapting.

And you have shown that you do not understand evolution. There is not "highest level evolved creature". I can ignore the nonsense that follows.

This site will tell you what other anomalies evolution has to answer.
The Fossil Record

Sorry, but I have better ways to waste my time than another lying creationist site. Evolution does not have to lie. It can be shown that all creationist sites lie. That should tell you something about the two arguments.
 
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stevevw

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I have never heard any evolutionist make that claim. Perhaps you misunderstood them. New discoveries come along and we are better able to hone our points. New discoveries so far have always supported evolution. They may have been wrong on some minor points, but the science itself has always advanced.



No, if creationism was true there still should be some consistent scientific facts that point to it. So far there are none. The evidence in the fossil records does not support creationism. Again, if creationism was true a creationist should be able to predict what we would find in the fossil record using a creationist paradigm. No one had managed to do so yet. Without a theory or hypothesis you cannot claim that a scientific fact supports your belief by definition. The people that try to say fossils support creationism are not honest, or too terribly bright.



No, there is no evidence at all that supports a flood. Not one little bit. If you have any I would love to see it. Show me how a fossil that was a mere variation was turned into a species. Don't just make baseless claims. If that is all you have all it takes to defeat you is a wave of the hands.



The so called "soft tissue" was not soft. You do realize that don't you?

And please, exaggerating is a form of lying. Where can you find these 80 foot tall trees that go through millions of years worth of fossils. You do realize that the so called problem of "polystrate" fossils was solved over a hundred years ago, don't you? Once again, don't listen to lying sources.



Someone is believing creationist sources that are not accurate. So called "living fossils" do not harm the theory of evolution in any way. They may be the same genus as species that existed many millions of years ago, but they are not the same. And now you are just throwing nonsense against the wall to see if any of it sticks. The same old creationist claims that have been shown not to be true time after time.



No, all you have is nonsense from lying sources. You may have the luxury of being ignorant. The sites that you got that nonsense from don't have that luxury. They know the stuff that they spread has been debunked thousands of times and they are lying by spreading them. Lastly the existence of god has nothing to do with evolution. Worldwide most Christians accept the theory of evolution. It is only in the U.S. where we see a lot of believers in it and that even bigger joke the Flud!



And you have shown that you do not understand evolution. There is not "highest level evolved creature". I can ignore the nonsense that follows.



Sorry, but I have better ways to waste my time than another lying creationist site. Evolution does not have to lie. It can be shown that all creationist sites lie. That should tell you something about the two arguments.

I will get back to you in more detail soon but i have done this several times if you go back through my posts. Even so you are doing the exact thing rebutting with statements that dont have any back up. One thing i have notices is its a never ending circle of you say this and i say that and then each presents some evidences and each is disputed and it goes on and on.
But i will just reply perhaps in the mean time you could show me proof of what you are disputing from what i said such as the transitional fossils and the trees going through fossil layers.

If you would have read the link you would have seen the anomalies i have been talking about in more detail. As far as i know the site is not religious but takes a look at some of the more difficult questions raised with the theory of evolution.
 
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