What About Progressive Sanctification?

[RickReads]

No I never said that. I was disputing degrees of evidence and arguing that the degree of evidence for progressive sanctification is very high in many verses, and cumulatively higher in fact than the degree of evidence for the Trinity. Thus my implied argument was this:
(1) If you accept the Trinity based on a fairly small amount of evidence.
(2) You should therefore accept progressive sanctification, since it has more evidence.
Not sure that argument is watertight but it seemed worthy of consideration.

My acceptance of the term trinity is a concession to my trinitarian brethren. Most of my life I would have rejected it for the same reason I reject adding man's progressive to my sanctification.

What does progressive sanctification do for a believer? What is the benefit?

 

[RickReads]

I don’t see that at all.
It is written...

John 17:17
"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."

Ephesians 5:25-27
25 "...even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."

1 Thessalonians 4:3
"For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:"

Can you read what the verses say? Abstain fornication and believe truth is man`s part. Sanctification
is God`s part. No other works are mentioned. Think man.

 

[RickReads]

Oh - and the nature of the Trinity, the nature of regeneration, the nature of God's holiness, reconciling divine freedom with immutable holiness - All this is a cinch to explain in my metaphysics.

All that is a cinch if you accept what the Bible says.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

My acceptance of the term trinity is a concession to my trinitarian brethren. Most of my life I would have rejected it for the same reason I reject adding man's progressive to my sanctification.

What does progressive sanctification do for a believer? What is the benefit?

This is the reason.

Ephesians 5:25-27 KJV
[25] “... even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; [26] That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, [27] That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.”

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Can you read what the verses say? Abstain fornication and believe truth is man`s part. Sanctification
is God`s part. No other works are mentioned. Think man.

No. It tells you that Sanctification is tied to abstaining from fornication.

 

[RickReads]

This is the reason.

Ephesians 5:25-27 KJV
[25] “... even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; [26] That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, [27] That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.”

I was asking JAL. I reject your works for salvation theology.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I was asking JAL. I reject your works for salvation theology.

And I reject your sin and still be saved type belief. The Bible teaches we are saved initially and foundationally by by God’s grace and then we enter the Sanctification Process as a part of God’s plan of salvation. You got a problem with that, then take it up with God. For Titus 2:11-12 says God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world. Jude 1:4 talks about those who turn God’s grace into a license for immorality.

 

[RickReads]

And I reject your sin and still be saved type belief. The Bible teaches we are saved initially and foundationally by by God’s grace and then we enter the Sanctification Process as a part of God’s plan of salvation. You got a problem with that, then take it up with God. For Titus 2:11-12 says God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world. Jude 1:4 talks about those who turn God’s grace into a license for immorality.

You can be forgiven.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Can you read what the verses say? Abstain fornication and believe truth is man`s part. Sanctification
is God`s part. No other works are mentioned. Think man.

You are making stuff up in this verse.

1 Thessalonians 4:3 says,
"For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication”

It does not say that God sanctifies you completely so you never have worry about sanctification. Where does it say that in this verse?

This verse basically says that both the “will of God” AND “Sanctification” includes abstaining from fornication. In other words, if a believer is abstaining from fornication, it is a part of the will of God and it is a part of our Sanctification.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You can be forgiven.

Not if one’s mindset says they will always commit mortal sin this side of Heaven.

Forgiveness is only there if we seek to confess our sins to Jesus and we forsake such sins with intention of overcoming them.

How so?

Do you think a man can cheat on his wife and just tell her that he is sorry all the time and expect her to stay with him?

 

[JAL]

My acceptance of the term trinity is a concession to my trinitarian brethren. Most of my life I would have rejected it for the same reason I reject adding man's progressive to my sanctification.

What does progressive sanctification do for a believer? What is the benefit?

Ok let's talk about the fruits of revival. Efficacious grace amounts to effortless obedience, for those parts of the heart sanctified. In a major revival, it's possible for "labor" to become a typically unrealizable concept. Jesus put it like this:

"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

What is rest like? It's like this. When's the last time you woke up from a good night's sleep complaining, "Good Lord, that rest was a ton of work!"

Isaiah used different language to express the same thing:

"They that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; they shall walk, and not faint."

Which explains why the God of the OT often "seemed" more harsh than the God of the NT. The Mosaic era was, like Pentecost, a period of great revival. Since obedience was therefore easy in that period, Yahweh was very intolerant of disobedience. In point of fact the NT God is equally harsh, for example He was putting the Corinthians to death for profaning the Eucharist (11:30), hence Paul reminded them it was all just like Mosaic times - see 10:5-11.

In addition to making life typically effortless, a major revival elevates people to levels of joy/intoxication beyond their wildest dreams/imaginations. Thus it is possible for a revival to eliminate alcohol abuse and drug trafficking, in a given town or city, virtually overnight, as the populace, by and large, will no longer crave those things. Crime rates in general can diminish to near zero because, when life is effortless, and people feel happy and secure in Christ, they don't feel much need to engage in crime. The streets become safe to meander even at night.

Even more importantly, a major revival is an outpouring targeted, not just to believers, but to unbelievers as well, to draw them into the kingdom. Thus waiting upon the Lord for revival is our most powerful evangelistic strategy - in fact the ONLY strategy that Yahweh ordained, in my opinion.

 

[JAL]

All that is a cinch if you accept what the Bible says.

That's not true. Traditional assumptions cannot solve the problems that I've named. They can't even explain how God regenerates us. In fact professional theologians even have a technical term to describe the mystery of regeneration, they refer to it as one of the "inscrutable" works of God, meaning we have no clear insight as to the specifics of how He accomplishes it.

 

[RickReads]

Ok let's talk about the fruits of revival. Efficacious grace amounts to effortless obedience, for those parts of the heart sanctified. In a major revival, it's possible for "labor" to become a typically unrealizable concept. Jesus put it like this:

"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

What is rest like? It's like this. When's the last time you woke up from a good night's sleep complaining, "Good Lord, that rest was a ton of work!"

Isaiah used different language to express the same thing:

"They that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; they shall walk, and not faint."

Which explains why the God of the OT often "seemed" more harsh than the God of the NT. The Mosaic era was, like Pentecost, a period of great revival. Since obedience was therefore easy in that period, Yahweh was very intolerant of disobedience. In point of fact the NT God is equally harsh, for example He was putting the Corinthians to death for profaning the Eucharist (11:30), hence Paul reminded them it was all just like Mosaic times - see 10:5-11.

In addition to making life typically effortless, a major revival elevates people to levels of joy/intoxication beyond their wildest dreams/imaginations. Thus it is possible for a revival to eliminate alcohol abuse and drug trafficking, in a given town or city, virtually overnight, as the populace, by and large, will no longer crave those things. Crime rates in general can diminish to near zero because, when life is effortless, and people feel happy and secure in Christ, they don't feel much need to engage in crime. The streets become safe to meander even at night.

Even more importantly, a major revival is an outpouring targeted, not just to believers, but to unbelievers as well, to draw them into the kingdom. Thus waiting upon the Lord for revival is our most powerful evangelistic strategy - in fact the ONLY strategy that Yahweh ordained, in my opinion.

Ok, so your answer is progressive sanctification makes obedience effortless? Is that correct?
I need clarification because you cited unmerited grace as the source of the effortless obedience.

And you are going with the premise that your heart is only partially sanctified. Therefore you profess to be part saved, part unsaved, not fully saved? Only logical that this is true for you wouldn`t you say?

You also state that obedience was easier in the time of Moses because they were having a revival?
I don`t want to distract you from answering my question about sanctification but I want to make sure I am clear on what you mean.

Feel free to revise your answer if you like. I want you to have every chance to put your best answer on the table before I respond. But I need you to help me be clear on what the benefit of progressive sanctification is in your opinion.

 

[RickReads]

That's not true. Traditional assumptions cannot solve the problems that I've named. They can't even explain how God regenerates us. In fact professional theologians even have a technical term to describe the mystery of regeneration, they refer to it as one of the "inscrutable" works of God, meaning we have no clear insight as to the specifics of how He accomplishes it.

The scriptures are traditional assumptions?

 

[RickReads]

You are making stuff up in this verse.

1 Thessalonians 4:3 says,
"For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication”

It does not say that God sanctifies you completely so you never have worry about sanctification. Where does it say that in this verse?

This verse basically says that both the “will of God” AND “Sanctification” includes abstaining from fornication. In other words, if a believer is abstaining from fornication, it is a part of the will of God and it is a part of our Sanctification.

You are making another false accusation to evade scripture that contradicts your views. I said man`s part in his sanctification is to avoid fornication and believe the truth. I`ve always said that. You never pay attention to what people tell you which is one of the reasons why you think everyone is wrong but you.

 

[RickReads]

You are making stuff up in this verse.

1 Thessalonians 4:3 says,
"For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication”

It does not say that God sanctifies you completely so you never have worry about sanctification. Where does it say that in this verse?

This verse basically says that both the “will of God” AND “Sanctification” includes abstaining from fornication. In other words, if a believer is abstaining from fornication, it is a part of the will of God and it is a part of our Sanctification.

You don't get it and I should be more understanding about that, so I`ll explain. The Bible says fornication
is a sin against your own body. It defiles the temple of your body.

Abstaining fornication doesn`t sanctify you but committing fornication makes you dirty in a way that is more serious than other sins.

You think you are able to establish your own righteousness, you`re wrong about that.

 

[RickReads]

This is the reason.

Ephesians 5:25-27 KJV
[25] “... even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; [26] That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, [27] That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.”

Did you notice that Christ is doing the sanctifying? That`s why you can`t answer my question. You don`t understand that I am asking in relation to man`s effort to sanctify himself.

JAL and I are already in agreement, more or less, on what God`s sanctification does for us. So I ask him to explain what man`s effort does for a believer.

He believes in two sanctifications which is necessary if one is to attempt to make the doctrine fit the scriptures.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

That's not true. Traditional assumptions cannot solve the problems that I've named. They can't even explain how God regenerates us. In fact professional theologians even have a technical term to describe the mystery of regeneration, they refer to it as one of the "inscrutable" works of God, meaning we have no clear insight as to the specifics of how He accomplishes it.

and you cannot explain creation ex nihilo............

 

[RickReads]

and you cannot explain creation ex nihilo............

I don`t have a lot of interest in old commentary but I wouldn`t expect regeneration to be considered unexplainable. I`m curious who he thinks the professional theologians are.

You accept progressive sanctification doctrine I believe. That right?

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

I don`t have a lot of interest in old commentary but I wouldn`t expect regeneration to be considered unexplainable. I`m curious who he thinks the professional theologians are.it.

You accept progressive sanctification doctrine I believe. That right?

I look at sanctification like I do salvation. There is a past, present and future aspect to sanctification.