What about people who died before Christ was born?

[Lybrah]

How exactly can I explain to someone where non-Christians went before Christ was born and died. Where did the Jews go? Would it be fair for God to send to hell all the other types of people who were born in different lands and had no control over that? What if they tried to be good people? What if they would have come to Christ if given the chance?

Also: Where do unborn babies go? Aborted ones? What about infants who die before they can be baptized? Do they go to hell?

 

[“Paisios”]

My thoughts are that Jesus has existed before all time and at the beginning of all things...see John 1...so that the redemption He brings can apply to those before the Incarnation, though I can't claim to know the exact mechanism by which it would work.

(Edited to correct a spelling error)

 

[Albion]

How exactly can I explain to someone where non-Christians went before Christ was born and died. Where did the Jews go? Would it be fair for God to send to hell all the other types of people who were born in different lands and had no control over that? What if they tried to be good people? What if they would have come to Christ if given the chance?

Also: Where do unborn babies go? Aborted ones? What about infants who die before they can be baptized? Do they go to hell?

Those who were considered otherwise righteous but died before the Cross, such as the heroes of the Old Testament, are believed to have gone to a temporary place, not heaven or hell, called (usually) Abraham's Bosom or the Limbo of Our Fathers. That is probably where Jesus went between his crucifixion and his resurrection to proclaim his victory and their release to go to heaven.

For a long time, it was taught that a similar situation applied to all these babies and the place was called Limbo. That idea has become unfashionable lately and its generally thought that God saves them as special cases...or else we just don't know what he has in mind for them and should let it go at that. The really best answer for both of these matters is that the Bible does not tell us much about them and we ought not do too much speculating but instead leave it to God.

 

[SkyWriting]

How exactly can I explain to someone where non-Christians went before Christ was born and died. Where did the Jews go? Would it be fair for God to send to hell all the other types of people who were born in different lands and had no control over that? What if they tried to be good people? What if they would have come to Christ if given the chance?

Also: Where do unborn babies go? Aborted ones? What about infants who die before they can be baptized? Do they go to hell?

The only unforgiven sin is Active, informed rejection of God's Holy Spirit.
The uninformed are forgiven their sins.
Hell is where you end up if you refuse God's Holy Spirit.
There are comments Jesus made that suggest Children
(including babies) do come to God and they accept His love.
Access to the scriptures are not required, according to the scriptures anyway:

19 For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature,have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship,so that men are without excuse.

 

[alex2165]

Lybrah asked:

“Where do unborn babies go? Aborted ones? What about infants who die before they can be baptized? Do they go to hell?”


Matthew 18.2-3.10

2.He called a child whom He put among them,

3.and said, “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like children, you will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven. (Matthew 18.3, 19.13-15) (Mark 10.13-16) (Luke 18.15-17).

10.Take care that you do not despise one of these little ones, I tell you, in Heaven their angels continually see the face of My Father in Heaven.



Matthew 19.14

14.but Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me and do not stop them, for it is to such as these that the Kingdom of Heaven belongs.”



Lybrah asked:

“Where non-Christians went before Christ was born and died?”

The answer on your question lies in these words of Paul.

Romans 2.9-16

9.There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek.

10.But glory and honor and peace to every man who does good, for the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

11.For, there is no partiality with GOD.

12.All who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law.

13.Not the hearers of the Law are just before GOD, but the doers of the Law will be justified. (Luke 6.46-49) (Romans 2.13) (James 1.22-25)

14.For, when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these not having the Law are a law to themselves.

15.In that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness, and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

16.on the day when, according to my Gospel, GOD will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

 

[Phantasman]

How exactly can I explain to someone where non-Christians went before Christ was born and died. Where did the Jews go? Would it be fair for God to send to hell all the other types of people who were born in different lands and had no control over that? What if they tried to be good people? What if they would have come to Christ if given the chance?

Also: Where do unborn babies go? Aborted ones? What about infants who die before they can be baptized? Do they go to hell?

Matthew 27:52

You get the expanded answer that identifies your question in the Apocryphon of John. A part of the "non Canon" books the catholics refused others to believe.

"And I went into the realm of darkness and I endured till I entered the middle of the prison. And the foundations of chaos shook. And I hid myself from them because of their wickedness, and they did not recognize me.


"Again I returned for the second time, and I went about. I came forth from those who belong to the light, which is I, the remembrance of the Pronoia. I entered into the midst of darkness and the inside of Hades, since I was seeking (to accomplish) my task. And the foundations of chaos shook, that they might fall down upon those who are in chaos and might destroy them. And again I ran up to my root of light, lest they be destroyed before the time.


"Still for a third time I went - I am the light which exists in the light, I am the remembrance of the Pronoia - that I might enter into the midst of darkness and the inside of Hades. And I filled my face with the light of the completion of their aeon. And I entered into the midst of their prison, which is the prison of the body. And I said, 'He who hears, let him get up from the deep sleep.' And he wept and shed tears. Bitter tears he wiped from himself and he said, 'Who is it that calls my name, and from where has this hope come to me, while I am in the chains of the prison?' And I said, 'I am the Pronoia of the pure light; I am the thinking of the virginal Spirit, who raised you up to the honored place. Arise and remember that it is you who hearkened, and follow your root, which is I, the merciful one, and guard yourself against the angels of poverty and the demons of chaos and all those who ensnare you, and beware of the deep sleep and the enclosure of the inside of Hades.-Apocryphon of John

Hades is merely the grave (where all before Jesus slept).

The event occurred fast to us, since "time" is not a spiritual vice, but a physical one.

This is what is spiritually true to me. The Orthodox may have other ideas. as I have heard many answers, most not following the actions of Gospel truths.

 

[Albion]

I know that's your area of interest, my friend, and it does provide one theory; but it really doesn't help our inquirer answer questions from a Christian point of view to be armed with writings that no Christian church accepts.

 

[1213]

How exactly can I explain to someone where non-Christians went before Christ was born and died. Where did the Jews go? ...

Bible tells about those who have not heard of Jesus:

For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it isn't the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified (for when Gentiles who don't have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying with them, and their thoughts among themselves accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ.
Romans 2:12-16

Eternal life is for righteous and as the previous scripture shows, person can be counted righteous, even if he has not heard of Jesus.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Matt. 25:46

And people who died before Jesus came on earth:

Most assuredly, I tell you, the hour comes, and now is, when the dead will hear the Son of God's voice; and those who hear will live.
John 5:25

 

[mark kennedy]

How exactly can I explain to someone where non-Christians went before Christ was born and died. Where did the Jews go? Would it be fair for God to send to hell all the other types of people who were born in different lands and had no control over that? What if they tried to be good people? What if they would have come to Christ if given the chance?

Also: Where do unborn babies go? Aborted ones? What about infants who die before they can be baptized? Do they go to hell?

I know that God judges based on the thoughts and inclinations of the heart so everyone comes front and center on the last day. The only way you go to hell is if you become a child of perdition, that is a deliberate and permanent choice only God can discern. When you trust God to save you you are also trusting God to judge the whole of humanity righteously. Now as to the unborn I honestly have no idea how that works. Those not in Christ don't go into the 1000 year reign of Christ but after that all the dead are raised and they are either in the Lambs book of life or not.

 

[Lybrah]

The only unforgiven sin is Active, informed rejection of God's Holy Spirit.
The uninformed are forgiven their sins.
Hell is where you end up if you refuse God's Holy Spirit.
There are comments Jesus made that suggest Children
(including babies) do come to God and they accept His love.
Access to the scriptures are not required, according to the scriptures anyway:

19 For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature,have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship,so that men are without excuse.

The uninformed are forgiven their sins? Then why spread the Gospel at all? That way, no one can reject it and keep their salvation. Does that make sense?

 

[SkyWriting]

The uninformed are forgiven their sins? Then why spread the Gospel at all? That way, no one can reject it and keep their salvation. Does that make sense?

Sure. That is part of the reason I don't go knocking on doors
or standing on street corners as some do.
It is not my calling to be evangelical. But I allow others to
have that calling if God asks them to.

I think traveling to the far corners of the earth
to find unreached people is bunk. But that's just me.

 

[Albion]

The uninformed are forgiven their sins? Then why spread the Gospel at all? That way, no one can reject it and keep their salvation. Does that make sense?

You are right to question the proposition that the uninformed are forgiven their sins for that reason. I note, for what it's worth, that although our friend said that the uninformed are forgiven, he also cited a Bible verse that apparently says that there aren't any such persons.

 

[Phantasman]

I know that's your area of interest, my friend, and it does provide one theory; but it really doesn't help our inquirer answer questions from a Christian point of view to be armed with writings that no Christian church accepts.

Hello Albion, my old friend. Always enjoyed our debates years ago. Always respected how you handled your personal views, without aggressive intent. I believe, at that time, you flew the Catholic banner.

I wonder why so many questions, like that above, is posted in the Controversial Christian Theology area, if one doesn't want a Controversial answer. We again resume our debate of what is spiritual truth and what isn't. Blocking out what the early "Priest" thought wasn't truth, has had such a change in all Orthodox religions.

BTW- If you hadn't heard, SoulGazer passed on a year or so ago. I came here to read some of his old posts.

You and I both love God the Father, Jesus our savior, and the Holy Spirit of truth. We just see different images, as only Christ will judge and God knows our hearts. Right?

Hope you are doing well.

Dan

 

[SkyWriting]

You are right to question the proposition that the uninformed are forgiven their sins for that reason. I note, for what it's worth, that although our friend said that the uninformed are forgiven, he also cited a Bible verse that apparently says that there aren't any such persons.

Existence itself should be enough information to beleive in God.
But I don't judge and say that it is. God decides.

 

[Albion]

Hello Albion, my old friend. Always enjoyed our debates years ago. Always respected how you handled your personal views, without aggressive intent. I believe, at that time, you flew the Catholic banner.

Hi, Phantasman. I was glad to see you back here again (and to see that distinctive avatar!). I hope you stay for awhile. No, I wasn't a Catholic then, but I probably was more sympathetic to Catholic practices and beliefs at that time.

wonder why so many questions, like that above, is posted in the Controversial Christian Theology area, if one doesn't want a Controversial answer.

Normally, I would 'second' that thought. Ive seen a lot of people post on unconventional theological topics and then become angry when everyone answering back doesn't give the same answer. But in this case, I thought the inquiry was somewhat different. It probably should have been put in the Christian Advice forum, but the poster is relatively new to CF and it takes awhile for some people to get comfortable with the different forums.

And now that I think more about it, I probably was wrong to suggest that your information wouldn't help her out.

BTW- If you hadn't heard, SoulGazer passed on a year or so ago. I came here to read some of his old posts..

I'm afraid that I cannot recall SoulGazer offhand, but I'm sorry to learn of any of our colleagues passing on.

You and I both love God the Father, Jesus our savior, and the Holy Spirit of truth. We just see different images, as only Christ will judge and God knows our hearts. Right?

Hope you are doing well.

Dan

I think I am, Dan, and thanks for the encouraging words. To be sure, I'm always interested to read your messages, and I do not mind a bit that we go different ways on some of the ideas contained in early church literature.

 

[RDKirk]

For a long time, it was taught that a similar situation applied to all these babies and the place was called Limbo. That idea has become unfashionable lately and its generally thought that God saves them as special cases...or else we just don't know what he has in mind for them and should let it go at that. The really best answer for both of these matters is that the Bible does not tell us much about them and we ought not do too much speculating but instead leave it to God.

I think there is considerable evidence in scripture that God's judgment considers a person's knowledge of Him, and the more a person knows, the harsher the judgment.

That said, an infant who dies is not innocent, but he is perfectly ignorant.

But I agree, scripture does not state this beyond dispute, so it's not an issue upon which to build a division of the Body.

The mission is: "Go out and make disciples." We don't have a need to know how God will handle those we don't reach in order to carry out our mission.

 

[RDKirk]

The uninformed are forgiven their sins? Then why spread the Gospel at all?

Because Jesus told us to. That is the only reason a Christian needs.

 

[Jeb711]

1st time post. Appreciate feedback on this. I've long struggled with the idea that all people who don't know or believe in Jesus are damned.

Someone who knew Jesus well, Thomas, said he didn't believe Jesus was alive. So He was saying he didn't believe Jesus was the messiah or God. Even after all he had heard from Jesus. He didn't believe but Jesus appeared to Thomas and then Thomas believed. If Jesus did this for him wouldn't it seem He would for all His children in some way who doubt or don't know? I believe it's significant that Jesus said Blessed are those who don't see yet still believe. But are those that don't, really going to hell? Or did Jesus make a way for All? Which He repeats several times.

Thoughts?

 

[RDKirk]

1st time post. Appreciate feedback on this. I've long struggled with the idea that all people who don't know or believe in Jesus are damned.

Someone who knew Jesus well, Thomas, said he didn't believe Jesus was alive. So He was saying he didn't believe Jesus was the messiah or God.

I don't think any of them at that moment had such developed theology.

 

[Albion]

I don't think any of them at that moment had such developed theology.

Agreed. The Scriptures persist in picturing the Apostles as 'missing the point' right up until they met Christ after his resurrection. That includes Thomas. He simply did not get his chance until after the others had seen the resurrected Lord. In addition, there is in the New Testament no indication that they were rejected by Christ because of it.