What about Hyperdulia?

[narnia59]

Christ is God. The transfiguration was an example of those people coming to him, not him going to them!

And we are in Christ, as are they.

And the book of Hebrews clearly shows us going to them.

But you have come to Mount Zion,http://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-36 to the heavenly Jerusalem,http://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-37 the cityhttp://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-38 of the living God.http://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-39 You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn,http://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-40 whose names are written in heaven.http://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-41 You have come to God, the judge of all men,http://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-42 to the spirits of righteous men made perfect,http://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-43 to Jesus the mediatorhttp://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-44 of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled bloodhttp://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-45 that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

As I said, whether you acknowledge their presence or not, every time you pray you are entering the heavenly Jerusalem and coming into contact with those have died in Christ. It's quite clear St. Paul does not consider this to be the same thing as 'consulting' with the dead. I don't think he ever refers to them as the 'dead' -- generally as those who have fallen asleep in Christ.

 

[narnia59]

You know I can see how the Apostolic Church would liken our prayers to the saints for intercession to be the same as our requests of the physically alive to pray for us. However there is a difference. In our life we do not pray to our say..pastor in hopes that he will get this "tingly" feeling that he should pray for us..rather we go to them and SPEAK to them..prayer is not involved on this earthly realm. However when you ask a saint to pray for you..you in effect end up praying to them for prayer. Thats a big difference in my book.

Do you recognize that when you pray you enter into the heavenly Jerusalem? That you come into their presence?

 

[laconicstudent]

Prayer is understood by all to be the method of communitcating with God in faith. It is a form of worship. God hears prayers.

Yes, and it is also understood to be a verb for asking others. I can say to a bus driver, "I pray you to wait for me!"


This is absurd, the word "pray" is not limited to communication with God. This is patently obvious to anyone who checks a dictionary.

I disagree. Reality is that prayer is a form of worship.

Reality is that dictionaries disagree with you.




pray

   /preɪ/ Show Spelled[prey] Show IPA
–verb (used with object) 1. to offer devout petition, praise, thanks, etc., to (God or an object of worship).

2. to offer (a prayer).

3. to bring, put, etc., by praying: to pray a soul into heaven.

4. to make earnest petition to (a person).

5. to make petition or entreaty for; crave: She prayed his forgiveness.

6. to offer devout petition, praise, thanks, etc., to god or to an object of worship.

7. to enter into spiritual communion with God or an object of worship through prayer.


–verb (used without object) 8. to make entreaty or supplication, as to a person or for a thing.



Use pray in a Sentence

See images of pray

Search pray on the Web

Origin:
1250&#8211;1300; ME preien < OF preier &#8810; L prec&#257;r&#299; to beg, pray, deriv. of prex (s. prec- ) prayer; akin to OE fricgan, D vragen, G fragen, Goth fraihnan to ask

&#8212;Related forms pray·ing·ly, adverb
outpray, verb (used with object)
un·pray·ing, adjective

&#8212;Can be confused: &#8194;pray, prayer, prey.

&#8212;Synonyms
4. importune, entreat, supplicate, beg, beseech, implore.

 

[Frogster]

And we are in Christ, as are they.

And the book of Hebrews clearly shows us going to them.

But you have come to Mount Zion,http://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-36 to the heavenly Jerusalem,http://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-37 the cityhttp://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-38 of the living God.http://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-39 You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn,http://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-40 whose names are written in heaven.http://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-41 You have come to God, the judge of all men,http://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-42 to the spirits of righteous men made perfect,http://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-43 to Jesus the mediatorhttp://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-44 of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled bloodhttp://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-45 that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

As I said, whether you acknowledge their presence or not, every time you pray you are entering the heavenly Jerusalem and coming into contact with those have died in Christ. It's quite clear St. Paul does not consider this to be the same thing as 'consulting' with the dead. I don't think he ever refers to them as the 'dead' -- generally as those who have fallen asleep in Christ.

Sorry..But I am quite sure God knew the meaning of dead, as those who left the earth, and we need not talk with them.

Asleep in the Greek means ..DEAD.

 

[Frogster]

Most of Christianity disagrees with your reality.

Why not one tiny tiny mention of mary adoration in the epistles?

As a matter of fact, no assumptiom mentioned, no sinlesness either.

Boy oh boy..such an erie silence about her.

 

[laconicstudent]

Why not one tiny tiny mention of mary adoration in the epistles?

As a matter of fact, no assumptiom mentioned, no sinlesness either.

Boy oh boy..such an erie silence about her.

There is also an incredibly eerie silence about germ theory.

 

[DD2008]

Time to look up the definition of a word again

The Bible:

Luke 2:37 KJV
[37] And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.

And from the English version the RCC uses from the Vatican-

Luke 2:37 RSV-CE
[37] and as a widow till she was eighty-four. She did not depart from the temple, worshiping with fasting and prayer night and day.

According to the bible, prayer is worship. The bible is the most reliable source of information on the planet. I'll stick with it thanks.

 

[DD2008]

Reality is that dictionaries disagree with you

Pull out a Webster's from the early 1800s and tehn one from today. Secular reference material agrees with the worldview of teh times, if the worldview is Godless like it is today you will have Godless definitions, if it is Godly like is was then you will have Godly definitions. The bible, the written Word of God, never changes. It is the authority I look to.

 

[DD2008]

And the book of Hebrews clearly shows us going to them.

No it doesn't. A cloud of Old Testament witnesses says nothing about praying to them. As a matter of fact the book of Hebrews is very heavy on worshipping God.

 

[narnia59]

Sorry..But I am quite sure God knew the meaning of dead, as those who left the earth, and we need not talk with them.

Asleep in the Greek means ..DEAD.

So there's no word in Greek that means asleep apart from being dead? In Greece you tell your children to 'go to bed and fall dead now"?

That's something no lexicon seems to support -- they show two different different words for asleep and dead in the Greek. Christ didn't seem to know they were the same thing either when he said "Go away. The girl is not deadhttp://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-25 but asleep."http://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-26 They laughed at him too.

Nonetheless, St. Paul refers to those Christians as being 'dead in Christ'. And since we know Christ is alive, that is quite different than being 'dead'.

St. Paul tell us that there is but one family of God, and it includes those in heaven and those on earth. Some of the family on earth seem to believe they have no need for the larger part of the family in heaven. But again, whether you like it or not you come to the spirits of righteous men made perfect when you pray. Ignore them if you wish, but I prefer to acknowledge my family and their care and concern for me.

 

[DD2008]

Most of Christianity disagrees with your reality.

Is most of christianity really Christians? That is the question.

Matthew 7:21-23 KJV
[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity

 

[DD2008]

umm yeah, like God not coming to us and becoming man..

He never prayed to us. He never worshiped us. He prayed to God. If praying to anything other than God was acceptible Christ would have told us so. Instead he taught us to pray to God.

Matthew 6:9 KJV
[9] After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

 

[laconicstudent]

Pull out a Webster's from the early 1800s and tehn one from today. Secular reference material agrees with the worldview of teh times, if the worldview is Godless like it is today you will have Godless definitions, if it is Godly like is was then you will have Godly definitions. The bible, the written Word of God, never changes. It is the authority I look to.

If you don't like the English language, with its "Godless" definitions, you are perfectly welcome to adopt another, but we are holding this discussion in English, and are going to adhere to the actual meaning of words in English and not redefine them to fit our argument.

Language Learning | Rosetta Stone

 

[laconicstudent]

The Bible:

Luke 2:37 KJV
[37] And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.

And from the English version the RCC uses from the Vatican-

Luke 2:37 RSV-CE
[37] and as a widow till she was eighty-four. She did not depart from the temple, worshiping with fasting and prayer night and day.

According to the bible, prayer is worship. The bible is the most reliable source of information on the planet. I'll stick with it thanks.

According to the Bible, actually, said widow spent her day and nights in an activity, described with a Greek verb, that a translator decided to render with an English verb that can refer to the act of communication with God or making requests of another person.

 

[DD2008]

If you don't like the English language, with its "Godless" definitions, you are perfectly welcome to adopt another, but we are holding this discussion in English, and are going to adhere to the actual meaning of words in English and not redefine them to fit our argument.

Language Learning | Rosetta Stone

The english language is fine. There are massive differences in definitions though depending on time and author of reference material. secularism is generally ignorant of God and teaches lies and foolishness.

 

[DD2008]

According to the Bible, actually, said widow spent her day and nights in an activity, described with a Greek verb, that a translator decided to render with an English verb that can refer to the act of communication with God or making requests of another person.

Luk 2:37 AndG2532 sheG3778 was a widowG5503 of aboutG5613 fourscore and fourG3589 G5064 years,G2094 whichG3739 departedG868 notG3756 fromG575 theG3588 temple,G2411 but servedG3000 God with fastingsG3521 andG2532 prayersG1162 nightG3571 andG2532 day.G2250

G3000
&#955;&#945;&#964;&#961;&#949;&#965;&#769;&#969;
latreuo&#772;
lat-ryoo'-o
From &#955;&#945;&#769;&#964;&#961;&#953;&#962; latris (a hired menial); to minister (to God), that is, render religious homage: - serve, do the service, worship (-per).

 

[lionroar0]

Is most of christianity really Christians? That is the question.

Matthew 7:21-23 KJV
[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity

Nicene Creed answers that question.

 

[lionroar0]

Luk 2:37 AndG2532 sheG3778was a widowG5503 of aboutG5613 fourscore and fourG3589 G5064 years,G2094 whichG3739 departedG868 notG3756 fromG575 theG3588 temple,G2411 but servedG3000God with fastingsG3521 andG2532 prayersG1162 nightG3571 andG2532 day.G2250

G3000
&#955;&#945;&#964;&#961;&#949;&#965;&#769;&#969;
latreuo&#772;
lat-ryoo'-o
From &#955;&#945;&#769;&#964;&#961;&#953;&#962;latris (a hired menial); to minister (to God), that is, render religious homage: - serve, do the service, worship (-per).

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

Strong's G3000 - latreu&#333;
&#955;&#945;&#964;&#961;&#949;&#8059;&#969;


1) to serve for hire
2) to serve, minister to, either to the gods or men and used alike of slaves and freemen
a) in the NT, to render religious service or homage, to worship
b) to perform sacred services, to offer gifts, to worship God in the observance of the rites instituted for his worship
1) of priests, to officiate, to discharge the sacred office

 

[lionroar0]

He never prayed to us. He never worshiped us. He prayed to God. If praying to anything other than God was acceptible Christ would have told us so. Instead he taught us to pray to God.

Matthew 6:9 KJV
[9] After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Prayer has more then one meaning. Both in English and Greek.

 

[Searching_for_Christ]

I don't know why we are arguing about the definition of prayer. Whatever the definition is, it has to be made in light of what the Bible teaches prayer is. If the bible teaches anywhere that prayer is a form of worship, and that its only to be done TOWARDS God..then does your definition that Websters give really matter? I think not.