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What about Hyperdulia?

DD2008

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The Lord is God and He alone is worthy of the highest praises.

Prayer is a form of worship. If you pray to a deceased person you obviously think it will benefit you more than praying directly to God or you would spend that precious time with him instead of asking the deceased to talk to him for you. Why is it that Roman Catholics insist on having some mediator other than Christ? You ask priests to forgive your sins, and ask the dead to interceed with God for you. When in reality there is nothng separating the Christian from God.

We shouldn't pray to the dead instead of God himself! God is so much better than that and deserves so much more than that kind of behavior.

1 Timothy 2:5 KJV
[5] For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

The Spirit Himself is our intercessor!

Romans 8:26 KJV
[26] Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

We don't need a priest between us and Christ!

1 Peter 2:9 KJV
[9] But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
 
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laconicstudent

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Prayer is a form of worship.

Time to look up the definition of a word again


pray

   /preɪ/ Show Spelled[prey] Show IPA
–verb (used with object) 1. to offer devout petition, praise, thanks, etc., to (God or an object of worship).

2. to offer (a prayer).

3. to bring, put, etc., by praying: to pray a soul into heaven.

4. to make earnest petition to (a person).

5. to make petition or entreaty for; crave: She prayed his forgiveness.

6. to offer devout petition, praise, thanks, etc., to god or to an object of worship.

7. to enter into spiritual communion with God or an object of worship through prayer.


–verb (used without object) 8. to make entreaty or supplication, as to a person or for a thing.




–verb (used without object) 8. to make entreaty or supplication, as to a person or for a thing.

Origin:
1250–1300; ME preien < OF preier &#8810; L prec&#257;r&#299; to beg, pray, deriv. of prex (s. prec- ) prayer; akin to OE fricgan, D vragen, G fragen, Goth fraihnan to ask

—Related forms pray·ing·ly, adverb
outpray, verb (used with object)
un·pray·ing, adjective

—Can be confused: &#8194;pray, prayer, prey.

—Synonyms
4. importune, entreat, supplicate, beg, beseech, implore.
 
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lionroar0

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The Bible:

Luke 2:37 KJV
[37] And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.

And from the English version the RCC uses from the Vatican-

Luke 2:37 RSV-CE
[37] and as a widow till she was eighty-four. She did not depart from the temple, worshiping with fasting and prayer night and day.

According to the bible, prayer is worship. The bible is the most reliable source of information on the planet. I'll stick with it thanks.


Try the Greek the NT was written in.:doh:

As the NT not written in English.:idea:

Just thought about this. the KJV is influenced by the Latin Vulgate.

The New American Bible - IntraText

I had no idea that us Catholics are limited to one version of the bible.

Now I'll have to throw out my KJV, NASB and my ASV. Also my Oxford colligiate editon. Catholic Study Bible.

Is this in the Catechism? Or perhaps another official Church document?
 
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Rhamiel

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Prayer is a form of worship. If you pray to a deceased person you obviously think it will benefit you more than praying directly to God or you would spend that precious time with him instead of asking the deceased to talk to him for you.
do you ask people who are alive on earth to pray for you?
why waste your time asking them to pray for you when you can spend that time praying to God?
 
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laconicstudent

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Not to mention the fact that we are speaking in English. In English, words have set meanings. And "Pray", in English, means more then "worship". If someone here doesn't want to use English, because the dictionary definition of terms invalidates their argument, they are welcome to start a thread in another language to discuss this subject.
 
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Maggie893

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Prayer is a form of worship. If you pray to a deceased person you obviously think it will benefit you more than praying directly to God or you would spend that precious time with him instead of asking the deceased to talk to him for you. Why is it that Roman Catholics insist on having some mediator other than Christ? You ask priests to forgive your sins, and ask the dead to interceed with God for you. When in reality there is nothng separating the Christian from God.

We shouldn't pray to the dead instead of God himself! God is so much better than that and deserves so much more than that kind of behavior.

1 Timothy 2:5 KJV
[5] For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

The Spirit Himself is our intercessor!

Romans 8:26 KJV
[26] Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

We don't need a priest between us and Christ!

1 Peter 2:9 KJV
[9] But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:


Again, their souls are not dead and they are still part of the body of Christ. They are a part of who we are. Our souls are all united in Christ. It's not like they are anything less that one with us in Christ.

Eph 3
14For this reason I kneel before the Father, 15from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name.
We also are not asking them to mediate for us....but to share in our prayers with us.
1 Tim 2
1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone
God desires that we all be one in Spirit. To ignore the souls that are already one with Him is tantamount to ignoring a part of who He is.

John 17
2
0"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. 24"Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. 25"Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."
Additionally, your assumption that I think that I will gain some greater benefit by praying to the Saints rather than God is completely incorrect. First, I don't pray simply for some personal benefit though surely I gain with each moment I am so closely united with God. Spending time with the Lord is priceless and just a small foretaste of what heaven will be like. But again, I will not be alone with God in heaven so sharing with all the saints today is no different then how it will be when my soul joins with them and Christ as my physical body remains here on earth in time.

You also make some flawed assumption that God is losing out on my prayers because I'm giving them to someone else. I have no idea how this could be asserted since we are all one body in Christ and even today, here on earth, as I pray for you, all souls that are part of the body of Christ are joined in that prayer because we are one body.

Picture a father with a son and a daughter. The kids argue with one another and taunt one another periodically but generally get along in the house. On his birthday, each child goes to their own room and makes him a present, perhaps a special hand drawn card or some craft project they put together. Then each goes to him at separate times and gives him their gift. He of course is delighted with each of them and with each of their gifts. He loves his children.

But what if the two children put aside their petty bickering for the day and went together to a room and together created a gift for him and then together presented it to him. How much more blessed is the father when his children act in accord as a family to bless him.

He doesn't love the children any more or any less if they come to him individually but he receives a special kind of wholeness in love when they are acting as family. Sharing with one another.

That's really all this is about. I spend a lot of time alone with God but I don't neglect those others that He loves equally and I appreciate the perfected unity that we will all have in heaven and enjoy having a little piece of it now.

Christ is the only mediator between us and the Father, but no where does it say that Father, Son and Holy Spirit only want to communicate with us individually and not as the body of Christ. We pray in the Spirit not in the flesh so our prayer are always united with the rest of the prayers of the body of Christ whether we acknowledge it or not.

While we live in time, our spirits are bound to God and to the Church, the whole Body of Christ, outside of time. We believe in eternal life not two lives, one on earth and one in heaven but eternal, never ending life through Christ. Our friends, relatives and the holiest of people through the ages have not died....they are alive in Christ Jesus as a the body of Christ.

I don't expect that you'll try to understand this right now. I was like you in my understanding when I was Protestant as well and it took a lot of study and prayer but once it clicked....what a difference it made in my relationship with the Lord and with other Christians.
 
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narnia59

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The Bible:

Luke 2:37 KJV
[37] And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.

And from the English version the RCC uses from the Vatican-

Luke 2:37 RSV-CE
[37] and as a widow till she was eighty-four. She did not depart from the temple, worshiping with fasting and prayer night and day.

According to the bible, prayer is worship. The bible is the most reliable source of information on the planet. I'll stick with it thanks.

Genesis 12:13 Say , I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee.
Genesis 13:8 And Abram said unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I pray thee, between me and thee, and between my herdmen and thy herdmen ; for we be brethren
Genesis 13:9 Is not the whole land before thee? separate thyself , I pray thee, from me: if thou wilt take the left hand, then I will go to the right ; or if thou depart to the right hand, then I will go to the left .
Genesis 16:2 And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing : I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.
Genesis 18:3 And said , My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away , I pray thee, from thy servant:
Genesis 18:4 Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched , and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree:
Genesis 19:2 And he said , Behold now, my lords, turn in , I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night , and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early , and go on your ways. And they said , Nay; but we will abide in the street all night .
Genesis 19:7 And said , I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly .
Genesis 19:8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing ; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.
Genesis 20:7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live : and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die , thou, and all that are thine.
Genesis 23:13 And he spake unto Ephron in the audience of the people of the land, saying , But if thou wilt give it, I pray thee, hear me: I will give thee money for the field; take it of me, and I will bury my dead there.
Genesis 24:2 And Abraham said unto his eldest servant of his house, that ruled over all that he had, Put, I pray thee, thy hand under my thigh:
Genesis 24:12 And he said , O LORD God of my master Abraham, I pray thee, send me good speed this day, and shew kindness unto my master Abraham.
Genesis 24:14 And let it come to pass, that the damsel to whom I shall say , Let down thy pitcher, I pray thee, that I may drink ; and she shall say , Drink , and I will give thy camels drink also: let the same be she that thou hast appointed for thy servant Isaac; and thereby shall I know that thou hast shewed kindness unto my master.
Genesis 24:17 And the servant ran to meet her , and said , Let me, I pray thee, drink a little water of thy pitcher.
Genesis 24:23 And said , Whose daughter art thou? tell me, I pray thee: is there room in thy father's house for us to lodge in ?

And that's just a third of the references in Genesis....
 
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narnia59

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Prayer is a form of worship. If you pray to a deceased person you obviously think it will benefit you more than praying directly to God or you would spend that precious time with him instead of asking the deceased to talk to him for you. Why is it that Roman Catholics insist on having some mediator other than Christ? You ask priests to forgive your sins, and ask the dead to interceed with God for you. When in reality there is nothng separating the Christian from God.

We shouldn't pray to the dead instead of God himself! God is so much better than that and deserves so much more than that kind of behavior.

1 Timothy 2:5 KJV
[5] For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

The Spirit Himself is our intercessor!

Romans 8:26 KJV
[26] Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

We don't need a priest between us and Christ!

1 Peter 2:9 KJV
[9] But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Your view that prayer to a saint takes away from prayer to God creates and either/or construct in a situation that is always a both/and. For whenever two or more are gathered, He is there. Always.
 
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DD2008

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do you ask people who are alive on earth to pray for you?
why waste your time asking them to pray for you when you can spend that time praying to God?

Please see post 89.

Not to mention the fact that we are speaking in English. In English, words have set meanings. And "Pray", in English, means more then "worship". If someone here doesn't want to use English, because the dictionary definition of terms invalidates their argument, they are welcome to start a thread in another language to discuss this subject.

Prayer is understood by all to be the method of communitcating with God in faith. It is a form of worship. God hears prayers.

Psalm 65:2 KJV
[2] O thou that hearest prayer, unto thee shall all flesh come.

Again, their souls are not dead and they are still part of the body of Christ. They are a part of who we are. Our souls are all united in Christ. It's not like they are anything less that one with us in Christ.

That may be the case if they were truely christians. Who are you to judge? God is the judge of that. There will be many so called "saintly" people who were unbeleivers in their hearts who will not spend eternity with God.

There is no directive or even implication to pray to anyone other than God in the bible. All examples of prayer to anything else in the bible fall under fall under the category of idolatry.

Genesis 12:13 Say , I pray thee, ....

And that's just a third of the references in Genesis....

The word "pray" isn't this issue. The practice of prayer in faith to the unseen spirits is. By "reaching out" and "appealing to" those who have put aside the mortal coil you are trying to contact the dead. In regards to the unseen spiritual world we are to "pray" to God alone, nothing else.

Check out this link: What God tells us in the Bible about trying to communicate with the dead, ghosts, with other spirits, Reincarnation, Psychics and Aliens

It presents a good reason not to try to contact spirits other than God.

Your view that prayer to a saint takes away from prayer to God creates and either/or construct in a situation that is always a both/and. For whenever two or more are gathered, He is there. Always.

Jesus (God) taught us to direct our prayer to God.

Matthew 6:9 KJV
[9] After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
 
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Maggie893

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DD I think that you are trying to limit concepts to support your stance and I understand that but the reality is that not all prayer is worship and not all worship is prayer.

Additionally, your assumption that you can't possibly know if Mary is in heaven with Jesus, or if any of the other people who have shown heroic virtue on earth are there, while a viable assumption, is really not a practical one. We honor those that have shown heroic virtue and we seek to emulate them as they emulated Christ in practical living.

But we don't worship them as gods.

The bottom line for me is that Christ called us all to be one, the sooner we start that the better.

I think if you study the Early Church Fathers through to modern times, most Christians understood the value of the whole Body of Christ communing together in prayer. It's actually a relatively recent change for some Protestant denominations that have chosen to abstain and in some cases abhor the prayers of the saints.

I'm just curious if you have considered the Apostles creed as a false creed due to the inclusion of the "communion of the saints"?
 
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narnia59

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The word "pray" isn't this issue. The practice of prayer in faith to the unseen spirits is. By "reaching out" and "appealing to" those who have put aside the mortal coil you are trying to contact the dead. In regards to the unseen spiritual world we are to "pray" to God alone, nothing else.

Check out this link: What God tells us in the Bible about trying to communicate with the dead, ghosts, with other spirits, Reincarnation, Psychics and Aliens

It presents a good reason not to try to contact spirits other than God.



Jesus (God) taught us to direct our prayer to God.

Matthew 6:9 KJV
[9] After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
The word "pray" is exactly the issue -- it has multiple meanings outside of worship, even in Scripture.

Scripture tells us not to 'consult' the dead. This is in terms of trying to seek future knowledge or practice divination, necromancy and the like.

If contacting the dead is strictly forbidden, the Christ disobeyed God when he conversed with Moses and Elijah. And we disobey God when we pray, for the Scripture tells us that we do indeed come into contact with those who have died in Christ when we pray -- when we enter the new Jerusalem we not only come to the Father and the Son, but also to the angels and saints. As St. Paul says "we have come....to the spirits of righteous men made perfect". If you're praying, you're already contacting them whether you want to acknowledge their presence there or not.
 
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katherine2001

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Like banging your head against the wall....I empathise with you.

Fortunately, if God knows what we are doing that is all that matters. He will be the one that judges us and nobody else's opinion matters. We should each be worrying about our own salvation (as St. Paul says, we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling).
 
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Searching_for_Christ

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You know I can see how the Apostolic Church would liken our prayers to the saints for intercession to be the same as our requests of the physically alive to pray for us. However there is a difference. In our life we do not pray to our say..pastor in hopes that he will get this "tingly" feeling that he should pray for us..rather we go to them and SPEAK to them..prayer is not involved on this earthly realm. However when you ask a saint to pray for you..you in effect end up praying to them for prayer. Thats a big difference in my book.
 
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DD2008

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.... there is a difference. In our life we do not pray to our say..pastor in hopes that he will get this "tingly" feeling that he should pray for us..rather we go to them and SPEAK to them..prayer is not involved on this earthly realm. However when you ask a saint to pray for you..you in effect end up praying to them for prayer. Thats a big difference in my book.

Exactly.
 
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DD2008

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The word "pray" is exactly the issue -- it has multiple meanings outside of worship, even in Scripture.

Scripture tells us not to 'consult' the dead. This is in terms of trying to seek future knowledge or practice divination, necromancy and the like.

If contacting the dead is strictly forbidden, the Christ disobeyed God when he conversed with Moses and Elijah. And we disobey God when we pray, for the Scripture tells us that we do indeed come into contact with those who have died in Christ when we pray -- when we enter the new Jerusalem we not only come to the Father and the Son, but also to the angels and saints. As St. Paul says "we have come....to the spirits of righteous men made perfect". If you're praying, you're already contacting them whether you want to acknowledge their presence there or not.

:doh: Christ is God. The transfiguration was an example of those people coming to him, not him going to them!
 
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DD2008

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DD I think that you are trying to limit concepts to support your stance and I understand that but the reality is that not all prayer is worship and not all worship is prayer

I disagree. Reality is that prayer is a form of worship.
 
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