What “is” a radio signal-?

sjastro

Newbie
May 14, 2014
4,855
3,890
✟273,856.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Yes, it's a 'fallacy of composition' to expect the universe itself to have the properties of its constituents; also, the conservation of energy has its limits - it is not necessarily conserved under General Relativity (depending on how one defines one's terms).

General Relativity allows some unexpected phenomena that may be relevant to the origins of our universe, such as, as Max Tegmark describes, the potential to produce an infinite volume of spacetime in a finite time and within a finite 'external' volume...
One of the earliest criticisms of General Relativity when Classical Physics was still prevalent was the dogmatic idea that energy (and mass) must be conserved.

It took Emmy Noether who was hired by David Hilbert who worked with Einstein on General Relativity (or perhaps rivalled him depending on the sources) to show that mathematical symmetry of a dynamical system under position, time or rotation translation determined the conservation law and ultimately there was no conservation law for energy when applied globally to an expanding Universe.

I’m not familiar with Max Tegmark’s work; I’ve seen him turn up on a few Science programs.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

sjastro

Newbie
May 14, 2014
4,855
3,890
✟273,856.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Right, a "closed" system.
Can you offer a system, even a local one that doesn't have entropy?
Given you don’t even know what entropy is as pointed out by another poster I can’t comment on word salad.





(emphasis mine)


As I read the highlighted section above I have to wonder who is displaying hostility or intolerance.
I assume you are a believer in Geocentricism given the ridiculous attempt to justify the idea using the M-M and Sagnac experiments.

If you are a thinking individual as you claim you are have you considered the possibility the Bible is wrong given every piece of evidence from the early 19th century onwards supports a heliocentric model of the solar system to the abandonment of the idea by the Catholic Church a long time ago?

Instead we get this it’s God’s way or the highway attitude and Krauss’ comments along with anyone who agrees with them is automatically dismissed as an idiot despite the fact you clearly have no comprehension of the nature of the comments.

I rest my case.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: pgp_protector
Upvote 0

FrumiousBandersnatch

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2009
15,258
8,056
✟326,229.00
Faith
Atheist
I’m not familiar with Max Tegmark’s work; I’ve seen him turn up on a few Science programs.
I've just finished the audiobook of Tegmark's 'Our Mathematical Universe', which covers the major cosmological origins & reality hypotheses, and the science behind them, finishing with his own pet theory (that our reality is a mathematical structure). It's a good read (listen), and he knows his stuff - he's a major contributor to the computer analysis and interpretation of CMB data.
 
Upvote 0

Dig4truth

Newbie
Aug 23, 2014
563
132
✟38,877.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
I've just finished the audiobook of Tegmark's 'Our Mathematical Universe', which covers the major cosmological origins & reality hypotheses, and the science behind them, finishing with his own pet theory (that our reality is a mathematical structure). It's a good read (listen), and he knows his stuff - he's a major contributor to the computer analysis and interpretation of CMB data.


Interesting concept!

The laws of mathematics are conceptual, universal, invariant and exception-less.

The laws of mathematics exist in the mind.
The laws of mathematics existed before people.
The laws of mathematics are not the product of the human mind.

What are numbers? Numbers are a concept of quantity. Numbers are concepts. They are abstract in nature, not physical. They exist in the mind.

Written numbers are not "numbers" but representations of numbers. The laws of mathematics are conceptual.

Where did the laws of mathematics come from?
Did they evolve? Did 7 evolve from 3?

Did they come from the universe? The universe is changing, expanding, stars exploding, etc. so why would we expect mathematics to be invariant and exception-less in a changing universe? Does the universe have a mind?

If mathematics didn't come from people, the universe or evolve where did mathematics come from?

In a biblical world view that is easily answered.


 
Upvote 0

Nithavela

our world is happy and mundane
Apr 14, 2007
27,997
19,443
Comb. Pizza Hut and Taco Bell/Jamaica Avenue.
✟489,034.00
Country
Germany
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Single
Interesting concept!

The laws of mathematics are conceptual, universal, invariant and exception-less.

The laws of mathematics exist in the mind.
The laws of mathematics existed before people.
The laws of mathematics are not the product of the human mind.

What are numbers? Numbers are a concept of quantity. Numbers are concepts. They are abstract in nature, not physical. They exist in the mind.

Written numbers are not "numbers" but representations of numbers. The laws of mathematics are conceptual.

Where did the laws of mathematics come from?
Did they evolve? Did 7 evolve from 3?

Did they come from the universe? The universe is changing, expanding, stars exploding, etc. so why would we expect mathematics to be invariant and exception-less in a changing universe? Does the universe have a mind?

If mathematics didn't come from people, the universe or evolve where did mathematics come from?

In a biblical world view that is easily answered.


https://logfall.wordpress.com/teleological-fallacy/
 
Upvote 0

FrumiousBandersnatch

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2009
15,258
8,056
✟326,229.00
Faith
Atheist
Interesting concept!

The laws of mathematics are conceptual, universal, invariant and exception-less.

The laws of mathematics exist in the mind.
The laws of mathematics existed before people.
The laws of mathematics are not the product of the human mind.

What are numbers? Numbers are a concept of quantity. Numbers are concepts. They are abstract in nature, not physical. They exist in the mind.

Written numbers are not "numbers" but representations of numbers. The laws of mathematics are conceptual.

Where did the laws of mathematics come from?
Did they evolve? Did 7 evolve from 3?

Did they come from the universe? The universe is changing, expanding, stars exploding, etc. so why would we expect mathematics to be invariant and exception-less in a changing universe? Does the universe have a mind?

If mathematics didn't come from people, the universe or evolve where did mathematics come from?

In a biblical world view that is easily answered.


To a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail...
 
Upvote 0

sjastro

Newbie
May 14, 2014
4,855
3,890
✟273,856.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I've just finished the audiobook of Tegmark's 'Our Mathematical Universe', which covers the major cosmological origins & reality hypotheses, and the science behind them, finishing with his own pet theory (that our reality is a mathematical structure). It's a good read (listen), and he knows his stuff - he's a major contributor to the computer analysis and interpretation of CMB data.
A Mathematical Universe does raise some interesting philosophical questions as highlighted in Wigner's article published in 1960 which leads to the ultimate question is mathematics invented or discovered?
The history of science would suggest the answer is both.
As an example in the late 19th century the formula for the Balmer series for the emission lines of the hydrogen atom was devised in an ad hoc manner.
As to why the formula worked was largely a mystery in which the case the formula can be considered an example of mathematics being "invented" to show an empirical relationship.
With the advent of quantum mechanics in the early 20th century it was found a much deeper level of mathematics involving Laguerre polynomials led to the derivation of Balmer series.
In this case the mathematics was a "discovery" which also explained why the formula works.
It is cases like this which is the motivation behind Wigner's article and probably an influence on Tegmark.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Nithavela

our world is happy and mundane
Apr 14, 2007
27,997
19,443
Comb. Pizza Hut and Taco Bell/Jamaica Avenue.
✟489,034.00
Country
Germany
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Single
I assume there’s a point there somewhere. What is it?
To ask the question "who did this", you must first establish that someone actually neccessarily needs to have done it.

It is like someone washing their car, and then it starts to rain, and they start shouting and shaking their first angrily at the sky, wondering which kind of weather demon caused the rain to fall to anger them.

You're attributing motive and agentship to something without any evidence of a need for an agent.

And another point: Your closing words are "in a biblical worldview this is easily answered". Just because something is easily answered by inserting a god into the mix doesn't mean that this god exists. In the world view of nordic pagans, thunderstorms were caused by Thor throwing his hammer around and Odin plucking on his harp. That's a very easy explanation, but today most of us know that it isn't true.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Dig4truth

Newbie
Aug 23, 2014
563
132
✟38,877.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
To ask the question "who did this", you must first establish that someone actually neccessarily needs to have done it.

It is like someone washing their car, and then it starts to rain, and they start shouting and shaking their first angrily at the sky, wondering which kind of weather demon caused the rain to fall to anger them.

You're attributing motive and agentship to something without any evidence of a need for an agent.

And another point: Your closing words are "in a biblical worldview this is easily answered". Just because something is easily answered by inserting a god into the mix doesn't mean that this god exists. In the world view of nordic pagans, thunderstorms were caused by Thor throwing his hammer around and Odin plucking on his harp. That's a very easy explanation, but today most of us know that it isn't true.



The case was made that a mind is necessary for mathematics. Since it was around before humans, where or from Whom do you suppose it originated from?
Or are you a) disagreeing that it is a construct of the mind or b) was created by humans?

If the answer to b is yes then you must assume nothing operated according to mathematics before there were humans.
 
Upvote 0

Nithavela

our world is happy and mundane
Apr 14, 2007
27,997
19,443
Comb. Pizza Hut and Taco Bell/Jamaica Avenue.
✟489,034.00
Country
Germany
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Single
The case was made that a mind is necessary for mathematics.
I disagree. Mathematics work even without anyone calculating, just like a tree that falls in the wood creates sound waves, even if noone is around to hear them.

Mathematics are an emergent property from the universe, based on its natural laws and logic which stem from a few natural constants that in turn emerge from basic properties of the universe.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Dig4truth

Newbie
Aug 23, 2014
563
132
✟38,877.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
I disagree. Mathematics work even without anyone calculating, just like a tree that falls in the wood creates sound waves, even if noone is around to hear them.

Mathematics are an emergent property from the universe, based on its natural laws and logic which stem from a few natural constants that in turn emerge from basic properties of the universe.


Without anyone calculating there is no math. Remember that it is conceptual and abstract.

Why would you believe that the universe which changes could produce something that is exception-less and invariant?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Nithavela

our world is happy and mundane
Apr 14, 2007
27,997
19,443
Comb. Pizza Hut and Taco Bell/Jamaica Avenue.
✟489,034.00
Country
Germany
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Single
Without anyone calculating there is no math.
I disagree. When you have three stones lying next to each other and another stone rolls from a mountain, you have four stones lying on the ground, even if nobody counts them. If one of those rocks hits another one, the rocks move according to the laws of mechanics, even if nobody calculates them.

Why would you believe that the universe which changes could produce something that is exception-less and invariant?
You're mistaking cause and effect. The universe doesn't change and produce laws of nature at the same time, the universe changes according to the laws of nature, which are themselves constant. Only some factors of those rules might change over time, and even those changes are because of other, underlying and more permanent principles.
 
Upvote 0