What’s your problem?

[SolitarySoul]

Which looks like you didn’t even read what I asked you. I asked you what, specifically, is the problem that makes you not accept the TofE. The best I can make of your response is that you believe in evolution (probably the “micro” flavor) but not common ancestry. The only “reason” offered is your worldview. I recommended something to look into that may alter your worldview a bit.

See this is exactly what I'm talking about lol. You act as if you think our "proof" of things by studying science is going to change the way I look at things lol. This is why I know you don't understand how I look at the world, because if you did, you'd understand why I think that such a thing would be absurd. Our "proof" of things will never be better than accepted hypothesis, because we are not all knowing and never will be. We accept "realities" by what we see with our eyes and hear with our ears, but there is only one truth, and while we are living man will never know what the complete truth is for sure.

My "worldview" will not be altered at all because you do not understad why I believe what I believe. I don't look at the universe the way I do because of what people say or write, or because of our studies and "proof" of the physical things we see. Using something such as evolution to try to disprove the way I see the universe, or even alter it, would make about as much since as picking up a peice of broken pavement and using it to "prove" the age of the entire universe, the exact name and location of the company that made that pavement, and the day and site it was layed on the street. Just like in court, "proof" does not mean it is right or even close to being right. Sometimes people are wrongfully accused and framed ... they could get life in prison for something they had nothing to do with, because even tho they are secretly innocent, they were "proven" guilty because all the evidence points to that. So your basically telling me that in this case, me knowing this person and knowing about them and seeing the situation in a different light is irrelevant, because the evidence you collect with your hands and eyes tells you they are guilty, whether they actually are or not.

Have you never seen the movie The Matrix? If so do you understand what is going on in it? I'm not saying I believe that story is real, I'm just using that as an example because the way things are working in the Matrix is a similar concept to my "worldview". The Matrix trilogy was written with the purpose of basically being an interesting story made up of metaphors of Christianity. You in this case would be representing one of the cops in the matrix saying "thats impossible", because they limit their knowledge to what they see and are told. I on the other hand, "view the world" in the way of one of the freed people living in Zion. I like to study science yes, but I don't draw conclusions saying what is and isn't possible, and what is and isn't "fact". Scientific theories and hypothesis cannot be "proven". They are simply observed and often accepted by people as good ideas. But what you don't understand is what my 'ideas' are. It would not matter if humans and a type of monkeys were so similar in so many ways that almost every person alive who looked at the evidence was convinced that we came from a common ancesstry, it suggests nothing to me other than that we are from the same planet. It'd mean about as much as if people were studying a sheet of paper that appeared to be printed out of a printer ... with printer ink and everything, making the conclusion that it was printed out, yet, we don't know that someone didn't have an increadibly careful handwriting, as a pretty bad example.

This is my point. You made this topic saying that Christians are making these comments without reason, as if to say that we are just denying such a thing just to be denying it. Some people may be, I don't know, but what I am saying is that I am not. You still don't seem to understand how I see things, or why so many Christians believe in this "nonsence" as some people put it.

 

[TheInstant]

[/color][/size][/font]
See this is exactly what I'm talking about lol. You act as if you think our "proof" of things by studying science is going to change the way I look at things lol.

So, basically, evidence doesn't matter to you because you already have your mind made up and nothing can change it. Why am I not surprised?

 

[Pseudo]

So, basically, evidence doesn't matter to you because you already have your mind made up and nothing can change it. Why am I not surprised?

True and true.

Grand majority of Christians have their mind made up beforehand.

Question: Why don't you?

Okay, you (like, me, by the way) search for rational explanations, fine. Why is that better for one's being?

 

[chaoschristian]

The Matrix series are rather poor movies, and not just because Keeanu Reeves appears in them. But they are even worse at pretending to be some sort of allegory for Christianity.

Case in point: the reality of the Matrix is deceptive, a dream world which boundaries are enforced by agents of some higher power.

If you apply this to the orthodox Christian world view, you are basically stating that Creation is not real, and is in fact fundementally deceptive.

This is a problem because:

1. God looked upon Creation and called it good.
2. It implies that God wants to deceive through a deceptive Creation.
3. It implies that the knowledge to break through this deception is hidden, and not readily available to all people.
4. It in essence makes God the author of disorder, rather than order, presenting His stewards with a reality that is unknowable, unpredictable, and uncertain.

Within the bounds of orthodox Christian worldview, Creation is good, knowable, regular and predictable and a proper revelation of God's truth.

Which is why it is perfectly plausible to accept evolutionary theory as a Christian. Actually, not just plausible, but incredibly compelling.

[/color][/size][/font]
See this is exactly what I'm talking about lol. You act as if you think our "proof" of things by studying science is going to change the way I look at things lol. This is why I know you don't understand how I look at the world, because if you did, you'd understand why I think that such a thing would be absurd. Our "proof" of things will never be better than accepted hypothesis, because we are not all knowing and never will be. We accept "realities" by what we see with our eyes and hear with our ears, but there is only one truth, and while we are living man will never know what the complete truth is for sure.

My "worldview" will not be altered at all because you do not understad why I believe what I believe. I don't look at the universe the way I do because of what people say or write, or because of our studies and "proof" of the physical things we see. Using something such as evolution to try to disprove the way I see the universe, or even alter it, would make about as much since as picking up a peice of broken pavement and using it to "prove" the age of the entire universe, the exact name and location of the company that made that pavement, and the day and site it was layed on the street. Just like in court, "proof" does not mean it is right or even close to being right. Sometimes people are wrongfully accused and framed ... they could get life in prison for something they had nothing to do with, because even tho they are secretly innocent, they were "proven" guilty because all the evidence points to that. So your basically telling me that in this case, me knowing this person and knowing about them and seeing the situation in a different light is irrelevant, because the evidence you collect with your hands and eyes tells you they are guilty, whether they actually are or not.

Have you never seen the movie The Matrix? If so do you understand what is going on in it? I'm not saying I believe that story is real, I'm just using that as an example because the way things are working in the Matrix is a similar concept to my "worldview". The Matrix trilogy was written with the purpose of basically being an interesting story made up of metaphors of Christianity. You in this case would be representing one of the cops in the matrix saying "thats impossible", because they limit their knowledge to what they see and are told. I on the other hand, "view the world" in the way of one of the freed people living in Zion. I like to study science yes, but I don't draw conclusions saying what is and isn't possible, and what is and isn't "fact". Scientific theories and hypothesis cannot be "proven". They are simply observed and often accepted by people as good ideas. But what you don't understand is what my 'ideas' are. It would not matter if humans and a type of monkeys were so similar in so many ways that almost every person alive who looked at the evidence was convinced that we came from a common ancesstry, it suggests nothing to me other than that we are from the same planet. It'd mean about as much as if people were studying a sheet of paper that appeared to be printed out of a printer ... with printer ink and everything, making the conclusion that it was printed out, yet, we don't know that someone didn't have an increadibly careful handwriting, as a pretty bad example.

This is my point. You made this topic saying that Christians are making these comments without reason, as if to say that we are just denying such a thing just to be denying it. Some people may be, I don't know, but what I am saying is that I am not. You still don't seem to understand how I see things, or why so many Christians believe in this "nonsence" as some people put it.

 

[TheInstant]

Okay, you (like, me, by the way) search for rational explanations, fine. Why is that better for one's being?

It depends on what you mean by "better for one's being". If you mean better as in happier, healthier, etc. then I'm not sure that it is. For all I know I may be much happier holding an irrational belief, but that doesn't mean I can force myself to do it.

 

[Pseudo]

It depends on what you mean by "better for one's being". If you mean better as in happier, healthier, etc. then I'm not sure that it is. For all I know I may be much happier holding an irrational belief, but that doesn't mean I can force myself to do it.

Sorry if there was confusion. That was more of a rhetorical question. Nobody can really judge another's way of life, I believe, only interpret it. I thought your response of "Why am I not surprised?" to a former quote was kind of condescending...I was just trying to point out that a logical belief isn't necessarily a correct one. No offence intended.

 

[gluadys]

Have you never seen the movie The Matrix? If so do you understand what is going on in it? I'm not saying I believe that story is real, I'm just using that as an example because the way things are working in the Matrix is a similar concept to my "worldview". The Matrix trilogy was written with the purpose of basically being an interesting story made up of metaphors of Christianity.

There are some Christian metaphors in The Matrix, but its overall worldview is essentially Buddhist. At least my Buddhist friends find that to be so. Or Platonist.

As chaoschristian says, the very idea that this world is a matrix, a holodeck-type illusion, is incompatible with the fundamental Christian doctrine of creation.

 

[TheInstant]

Sorry if there was confusion. That was more of a rhetorical question. Nobody can really judge another's way of life, I believe, only interpret it. I thought your response of "Why am I not surprised?" to a former quote was kind of condescending...I was just trying to point out that a logical belief isn't necessarily a correct one. No offence intended.

Ok, I see what you're saying now. I wasn't offended by what you said, I just misunderstood.

By the way, welcome to the forum

 

[AnEmpiricalAgnostic]

See this is exactly what I'm talking about lol…

Got it. You’ve got you mind set on some irrational belief (since it’s not based on reason) and no amount of evidence will change that. Oh, and you’re way too into the matrix for your own good. Sounds familiar.

Well, since this thread was intended to ascertain whether anyone had any problems with the TofE on it’s own merits or just on perceived theological grounds I’ll simply mark you down as the later and put this dialog to rest. Thanks.

 

[SolitarySoul]

Got it. You’ve got you mind set on some irrational belief (since it’s not based on reason) and no amount of evidence will change that. Oh, and you’re way too into the matrix for your own good. Sounds familiar.

Well, since this thread was intended to ascertain whether anyone had any problems with the TofE on it’s own merits or just on perceived theological grounds I’ll simply mark you down as the later and put this dialog to rest. Thanks.

I have never in my life seen such a false assumption about my beleifs. I wont even bother to consider any such evidence of 'evolution' with these things said lol. I don't "set my mind" on anything without putting countless hours into studying the subject, and that goes for anything. You have no idea why I believe what I believe in. The only one making any irrational conclusions here is you, in thinking that my conclusions are nonsense, because you don't even bother to take my view into consideration.

And about the matrix comment, if you think I study the movie the Matrix to try to find symbols that support my beliefs, then my point is proven that you do not even understand where I am comming from. If you don't care to hear my views and why I believe what I believe, suit yourself, but then don't make comments such as "irrational" or nonsense, because you don't even have a clue where I'm coming from. I could honestly care less what my beliefs agree with and disagree with, that has absolutly nothing to do with why I believe them.

There are some Christian metaphors in The Matrix, but its overall worldview is essentially Buddhist. At least my Buddhist friends find that to be so. Or Platonist.

As chaoschristian says, the very idea that this world is a matrix, a holodeck-type illusion, is incompatible with the fundamental Christian doctrine of creation.

The authors of the Matrix are devout Christians, and the movie was actually based off of many religions, including major Christian and ancient Greek symbolism. I did not say we live in a "matrix", you're taking my words too literally. It's called symbolizm.

 

[shinbits]

Yes, because on average it will be passed to proportionately fewer offspring than normal eagle eyesight. And the same in succeeding generations.

Even if it is never purged 100% from the gene pool, it will always affect only a small proportion of the eagle population. It will always be the exception to the norm.

Okay.

Is there anything else I need to know?

 

[AnEmpiricalAgnostic]

I have never in my life seen such a false assumption about my beleifs. I wont even bother to consider any such evidence of 'evolution' with these things said lol. I don't "set my mind" on anything without putting countless hours into studying the subject, and that goes for anything. You have no idea why I believe what I believe in. The only one making any irrational conclusions here is you, in thinking that my conclusions are nonsense, because you don't even bother to take my view into consideration.

And about the matrix comment, if you think I study the movie the Matrix to try to find symbols that support my beliefs, then my point is proven that you do not even understand where I am comming from. If you don't care to hear my views and why I believe what I believe, suit yourself, but then don't make comments such as "irrational" or nonsense, because you don't even have a clue where I'm coming from. I could honestly care less what my beliefs agree with and disagree with, that has absolutly nothing to do with why I believe them.

It’s not that I don’t care, it’s just that it’s not what this current thread is about. I am always looking for a theist that has a belief in a god that is based on sound logic and/or material evidence instead of the same old circular logic and vague references offered as “proof”. If you think you have something worthwhile to consider in substantiation of creationism then I invite you to start your own thread and I will participate. (If it’s a general argument for your god in general then it may be more appropriate in GA though) From what I’ve seen though creationists put great stock in faith and often believe in spite of reason and material evidence.

As for this thread I’m looking for creationists that have a problem with the TofE on it’s own merits (which will help resolve my secondary question about whether creationists object for legitimate reasons or are simply promoting the false dichotomy of religion vs. evolution.

 

[AnEmpiricalAgnostic]

Okay.

Is there anything else I need to knoaw?

This is definitely something you need to tell us. Are there anything problems that you have with the TofE that have not been resolved yet? Do you now understand and concede the objections you raised so far?

 

[Mocca]

SolitarySoul, AnEmpiricalAgnostic was correct in saying that your belief was irrational. From this quote we can establish "See this is exactly what I'm talking about lol. You act as if you think our "proof" of things by studying science is going to change the way I look at things lol." your beliefs will not change no matter what evidence is applied. This is a belief without reason - you ignore all reason and evidence from the oppsite side. A belief without reason is an irrational belief. By so choosing to ignore all opposing evidence, you have made your belief from a rational belief into an irrational belief.

 

[Schroeder]

I think you are always going to have a dissenting part of the population that will disagree for no other reason than they do not wish to change their outlook on life. Especially when they feel it can harm their religious beliefs and leave them without so much as hope in their lives.

It could be worse, the majority of the worlds population could actually believe in YEC, but I think overall most people accept evolution or at least the idea of a very old earth. There is too much empirical evidence of it. It's too hard to deny, and most people aren't strong willed enough and usually go with what's put right in front of their faces.

Anyone who seriously thinks that the jury is still out on evolution is a sadly misguided soul. And for one reason or another, are just unwilling to accept the fact that what they've been told by other misguided souls is wrong.
Does these people affect the reality of evolution? Nope. Does what these people often say make me laugh and pity them? Yep, sure does.

My only wish is that for once they would do something to prove their beliefs since they believe it is infallable. As a human, I cannot 'make evolution happen' as it takes a long period of time. But their God should certainly be able to prove otherwise shouldn't he?

I find it funny that God is so powerful and omnipotent, and can do absolutely anything....... except prove that he actually exists. (let alone prove he created us IMPERFECT creatures)

well this has always been a way for atheist to live happpy lives. dumb us up and put us down so they can feel good about themselves. maybe not all of them but most from what i read here. YOu wouldnt believe God if he came down a told you himself. which he did in Christ but.... and why could you not believe GOd did it through evolution. if not why do you like Theistic evolutionist. they should be more ridiculed then us. they believe the evidience of the theory YET still believe in a GOD. and the God of the bible of all gods.

 

[SolitarySoul]

SolitarySoul, AnEmpiricalAgnostic was correct in saying that your belief was irrational. From this quote we can establish "See this is exactly what I'm talking about lol. You act as if you think our "proof" of things by studying science is going to change the way I look at things lol." your beliefs will not change no matter what evidence is applied. This is a belief without reason - you ignore all reason and evidence from the oppsite side. A belief without reason is an irrational belief. By so choosing to ignore all opposing evidence, you have made your belief from a rational belief into an irrational belief.

I know quite a bit of the evidence, but you miss the point. You do not even know what I base my beliefs and conclusions off of, or why any such evidence would be irrelevant when trying to change such views, which, by your definition there of irrationalizm, would make your conclusions of my words irrational, not mine. The only reason I even bring the Matrix up is because of how easy it is to pull examples from that movie, because of the way it was written. Using evidence of evolution to change my views would make about as much since as the police in the Matrix making the conclusions that Trinity and Neo and all them were criminals because they did "irrational" things with "no reason". The point is not about right and wrong, the point is you aren't taking into account the way otheres view the universe, and why they do. I could care less what evolution evidence says ... not because I 'refuse' to believe it, because that has nothing to do with it ... but because simply resorting to evidence like that wouldn't even touch on the domain that I am talking about. It's like trying to disprove the existance of a God with physical evidence ... doing so is impossible because they'd be contradicting themselves. It'd make as much since as saying "there's no such thing as love because we are here by chance with no purpose because the evidece i see with my eyes says so".

So if you aren't going to bother to take such views into account and try to understand why people believe what they believe, then such an argument makes no since because the sides don't even answer the same questions. You can't take a pinch of red and a pinch of blue and draw a conclusion saying there's X amount of orange in all color. I was addressing his topic because he said Christians are making irrational comments and saying that the evolution theory is stupid, without any reason to say its stupid, yet, you don't even seem to be willing to take into account why such physical evidence in certain occasions may be irrelevant to someone's beliefs, and that offends me, because I don't believe what I beleive because of what someone says, or specifically because of what the Bible says, but because of years of growing in faith and spending every waking moment following my beleifs and learning more about the world through my eyes.

I'm done here.

 

[Gracchus]

I'm done here.

Since you do not provide any basis for what you believe, much less a rational one, I think it is fair to assume that you are being irrational.

You are not only done, you are finished.

 

[gluadys]

Okay.

Is there anything else I need to know?

Probably a lot.

Evolution is a big subject.

But I think we have covered this aspect pretty thoroughly.

We can rest until you have more questions.

 

[shinbits]

This is definitely something you need to tell us. Are there anything problems that you have with the TofE that have not been resolved yet? Do you now understand and concede the objections you raised so far?

I understand the topic pretty well thus far, and you guys have explained very well some of the concepts of how mutations being passed on. However, I don't agree with some of how it's been used to support evolution.

What I don't agree with is the belief that there are weaknesses in a population that get phased out. In the animal kingdom, as someone else pointed out, you don't see things like limp impalas; the average animal is born pretty healthy and have about the same physical abilities as other animals in it's population.

And since we don't see things like limp impalas, then we have no basis to assume that weaknesses of any kind were around to be overcome in the first place. We do see the effects of polution affecting animals, but that is an unnatural effect, and doesn't count as natural courses of events.


Well, the next concept I have a question with, is how mutations with new information form.

I'm not asking about variation of mutations; I mean brand new info, that would lead to the development of a new species millions of years after it's first been passed on to an offspring.

 

[shinbits]

Since you do not provide any basis for what you believe, much less a rational one, I think it is fair to assume that you are being irrational.

You are not only done, you are finished.

very clever line.

I might use that one.