What’s the worst that can happen?

[Ken-1122]

Who taught you to believe that?

Nobody told me; it was a conclusion I eventually came to after years of searching and studying.

Ken

 

[Ken-1122]

You are wrong. I did seek from the heart

(Ga777reply)That's the problem. Some think they seeked God from the heart, while they never did. And honestly, from your attitude, and how you talk here sometimes, it doenst seems for different reasons.

(reply)I told you the truth, you refuse to accept it.

That works both ways ya know; there are plenty of Christians converting to other religions, or to atheism; and those numbers are also too many to count

(Ga777 reply)Very true, they are more numerous now than the conversions to christianity. BUT, the christian converts get something supernatural, but those converting to other religions ~never do, and converts to atheism are because of a lack of faith from the 1st place.

(reply) If that is true, out of all the billions of Christians on earth, how come none of them have been able to demonstrate any of these “supernatural” experiences under controlled observations? Skeptic James Randi has had a $10,000,000.00 challenge for anybody who can demonstrate anything outside the laws of nature under controlled observations, and thus far nobody has claimed the money; not even Christians.

Exactly what did you tell me to do via PM?

(Ga777 reply)I no longer have the message, but it was some steps to do, and you said you wont do it of course.

(reply) Oh you are talking about that? I did EXACTLY what you told me, and when it didn’t work, you said “okay let’s try something else” at that time I said NO because I had been through that numerous times before and I know the pattern; First you say “do this” then when it doesn’t work, do something else, then when that doesn’t work, you keep making more and more stuff up until you start blaming me for being dishonest. I wasn’t going to go through that again; I explained it to you already!


If you have proof that your God exist, I would be more than happy to see this proof. And I didn’t accuse your god of anything; I simply asked what’s the worst that can happen if he addressed the world; never said he was obligated to do it[/font]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'](Ga777 reply)Proof is everywhere. Proof is in the creation, in the NDEs, prophecies, miracles, people with supernatural knowledge, eyewitnesses, people who got saved from death after hearing God, demonic possessions, apparitions, demons witnessing, angels witnessing etc. But most you guys will not believe, even if a dead person comes out of the grave, and if even atheists may believe after this (and wont consider checking a doctor), it wont change their lives

(reply)Christianity isn’t the only religion who make such claims, and as with the other religions, none of it can be verified.

I read the bible and I also saw a lot of flaws and contradictions as well.

(Ga777 )You mean you read the bible and misinterpret lots of things written in it. We've already talked about that before. And there are some mistakes in translation, yes, tho. they are very rare, but that is completely useless. Prophecies is something supernatural which cant be done by men, and a book had his prophecies coming true. Prophecy is a supernatural event, therefore it shows that the bible was inspired by God.

(reply)No I saw plenty of flaws and contradictions and I pointed some out to you; which you make up excuses for. Prophecies mean nothing because the men who wrote the bible had access to the prophecies, so when they were making up claims of Jesus, it is just as easy to make up the fulfilling of various prophecies by him as well!

My search for God ended a long time ago, before we had the internet.

You haven't got a clue of what you are talking about; during that time of my life I did everything in my power to find God and I couldn’t. I realize you don’t want to believe it, and that’s okay but it doesn’t make it any less true
Why must it be so hard? Why can’t a person with a sincere heart ask God to save them, even if they don’t have all the knowledge necessary to dot all the I’s and cross all the t’s (as they say) necessary to find God? If a person sincerely wants’ to know your God, why would God purposely remain hidden from him simply because he hasn’t learned the correct way to find him?

(Ga777)why did others find him after searching? Because your search was wrong. If you search for something in the wrong place and the wrong time for example, you would never find it.

You have enough proof everywhere (on the internet-eyewitnesses-in real life - bible etc.), and it is supposed to be enough , and you are supposed to have faith. But if you really search from all your heart, God would change his decision, and would show you direct/indirect proof, depending on how you worked in your search. Many people for exemple search for God because they are afraid of going to hell if he really exists, or want to go to heaven if it really exists... instead of searching him out of love, and that of course may not work. The right way isnt hard to do, not hard at all. But people would have for once to drop their selfisness behind their back, and send out as much love as possible while searching for God, and the result would be much different.

(reply) I don’t think anybody has ever found God because he doesn’t exist. What they found was an emotion experience, or a delusional trick of the mind that they believe is God.
I’m not looking for God anymore, I was just explaining to some of the other posters why I gave up on God years ago so you can quit trying to convert me; I know better.

Ken

 

[Mess]

(reply)No I saw plenty of flaws and contradictions and I pointed some out to you; which you make up excuses for. Prophecies mean nothing because the men who wrote the bible had access to the prophecies, so when they were making up claims of Jesus, it is just as easy to make up the fulfilling of various prophecies by him as well!


(reply) I don’t think anybody has ever found God because he doesn’t exist. What they found was an emotion experience, or a delusional trick of the mind that they believe is God.
I’m not looking for God anymore, I was just explaining to some of the other posters why I gave up on God years ago so you can quit trying to convert me; I know better.

Ken

Okay So I know you wrote more than that, but especially your arguement about prophecy is ridiculous. You mean to claim that the Jews orchestrated the Rise and Fall of Alexander the Great? The subsequent consequences of that? The invention of crucifixion as a punishment(oh and after they had Jesus crucified who they had orchestrated over 300things for so that the prophecies would be fulfilled they just made Him out to be a liar, so it was all for nothing makes sense doens't it?)? The destruction of great cities like Tyre? Jesus being born in bethlehem? The Roman soldiers gambling over His clothing? The dispersion of the Jews under the gentiles? The destruction of the Temple? The completely impossible survival of the Jewish race amongst the people even though no group of people survive such a situation for longer than 400years? Etc. etc. etc.
Wow the world must be right the jews are way to powerful for their own good, LET"S KILL THEM ALL!!! ridiculous, just ridiculous.

 

[Ken-1122]

Okay So I know you wrote more than that, but especially your arguement about prophecy is ridiculous. You mean to claim that the Jews orchestrated the Rise and Fall of Alexander the Great? The subsequent consequences of that? The invention of crucifixion as a punishment(oh and after they had Jesus crucified who they had orchestrated over 300things for so that the prophecies would be fulfilled they just made Him out to be a liar, so it was all for nothing makes sense doens't it?)? The destruction of great cities like Tyre? Jesus being born in bethlehem? The Roman soldiers gambling over His clothing? The dispersion of the Jews under the gentiles? The destruction of the Temple? The completely impossible survival of the Jewish race amongst the people even though no group of people survive such a situation for longer than 400years? Etc. etc. etc.
Wow the world must be right the jews are way to powerful for their own good, LET"S KILL THEM ALL!!! ridiculous, just ridiculous.

I was refering to the prophecies that Jesus fulfilled.

K

 

[oi_antz]

Nobody told me; it was a conclusion I eventually came to after years of searching and studying.

Ken

Reminds me of the parable of the wheat and weeds Matthew 13:24.

 

[oi_antz]

So what is your attitude to the bible now Ken? Do you think it is completely wasted? I'd be surprised if you have decided it contains 0% wisdom, I think it is more likely that you've slipped off the straight and narrow path, and that is preventing you from altogether thinking about what it says. Maybe that's a revision you owe to yourself. What are your thoughts about that?

 

[razeontherock]

I was refering to the prophecies that Jesus fulfilled.

K

So was Mess, the poster you responded to. That you didn't recognize this tells me a great deal about your "search for God."

Roll away the stone that is your hardened heart, and behind that is where you will find the risen Lord.

 

[Ken-1122]

So what is your attitude to the bible now Ken? Do you think it is completely wasted? I'd be surprised if you have decided it contains 0% wisdom, I think it is more likely that you've slipped off the straight and narrow path, and that is preventing you from altogether thinking about what it says. Maybe that's a revision you owe to yourself. What are your thoughts about that?

There is an old saying that goes: Men of war will worship a God of war, Men of peace will worship a God of peace.
I believe there is a great deal of truth to that statement. I believe much of the Old Testament was written by men of war. I believe what started me to become skeptical of the bible was when I read some of the stories written by what I believe to be men of war (the atrocities of Moses, Saul, etc.). As much as I tried to justify it, I couldn’t.
I also believe what was written about Jesus in the New Testament was written by men of peace. Even though I am an Atheist, I believe much of what was written by the men of peace mostly in the New Testament has much wisdom and is for the most part an excellent guide for living one’s life.

The bible a complete waste? Of course not! I just don’t perceive it as being perfect.

Ken

 

[Ken-1122]

So was Mess, the poster you responded to. That you didn't recognize this tells me a great deal about your "search for God."

Roll away the stone that is your hardened heart, and behind that is where you will find the risen Lord.

No! Mess was not the poster I was responding to when I made that statement.

K

 

[razeontherock]

See that little blue arrow there by the quote? Follow that back and you'll see what I mean

 

[Ken-1122]

See that little blue arrow there by the quote? Follow that back and you'll see what I mean

Thanks for showing me how that works. What happened was Ga777 and I had communicated via email and we debated about several issue; among them, he mentioned some of the prophecies that Jesus fulfilled as proof that the bible and Christianity is everything he believes it is. He then replied to me on this forum and brought up some of the things we discussed in our email conversations earlier. I was simply replying about what we had discussed via email.
Mess then pipes in unaware of our previous conversations and brings up prophesies unrelated to the ones I was referring to.
Hope that clears things up

Ken

 

[razeontherock]

Well I walked in blind just like Mess did, but if you look at his post, what he responded to, and your response to it, there's some good substance there worth pursuing.

Prophecy is no easy subject.

Anyway what's the worst that can happen, per your OP? God's plan gets subverted. Earth is not here for our glory, nor is our life about us.

 

[Ken-1122]

Well I walked in blind just like Mess did, but if you look at his post, what he responded to, and your response to it, there's some good substance there worth pursuing.

Prophecy is no easy subject.

Anyway what's the worst that can happen, per your OP? God's plan gets subverted. Earth is not here for our glory, nor is our life about us.

How does God addressing the entire world and clearing up all the misunderstandings people have of him, suvert his plan?

Ken

 

[razeontherock]

That's a pretty good question! I try to answer those things that I see clearly, and avoid making stuff up. Sometimes I wrestle with concepts I'm not clear on, but I try to make sure people understand that's what I'm doing when I do that. In this case, I don't have much of an idea, so it's best I don't venture in.

I do know that without Faith it is impossible to please God though, and what you're proposing would mess with that. Frankly, the idea of somehow "pleasing God" is still a pretty foreign concept to me, that I don't have much basis from which to be able to relate to.

 

[docpotter]

In Romans 1 : 20 Paul says ....

" For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities - His eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly seen , being understood by what has been made , so that men are without excuse "

I could not agree more myself. All you have to do is look at the diversity of animals , plants, insects , people , the ocean , mountains , and most of all take notice that good and evil exist to know God has made it all . He wants us to have faith , and to seek Him diligently .

I would like God to do what you ask too , but I know He won't . It would compromise free will, and faith to say the least. But personally I am sure if God did do what you ask Ken, 9 out of 10 atheists would make some excuse as to why it wasn't even God in the first place .

 

[oi_antz]

There is an old saying that goes: Men of war will worship a God of war, Men of peace will worship a God of peace.
I believe there is a great deal of truth to that statement. I believe much of the Old Testament was written by men of war. I believe what started me to become skeptical of the bible was when I read some of the stories written by what I believe to be men of war (the atrocities of Moses, Saul, etc.). As much as I tried to justify it, I couldn’t.
I also believe what was written about Jesus in the New Testament was written by men of peace. Even though I am an Atheist, I believe much of what was written by the men of peace mostly in the New Testament has much wisdom and is for the most part an excellent guide for living one’s life.

The bible a complete waste? Of course not! I just don’t perceive it as being perfect.

Ken

Thank you Ken, I understand you better now. Do you think the bible accurately portrays Jesus, or do you think it is fallacious?

 

[razeontherock]

I am sure if God did do what you ask Ken, 9 out of 10 atheists would make some excuse as to why it wasn't even God in the first place .

This is an excellent point, and it's time to bring this to the forefront. Jesus said if a person won't hear Scripture, he won't listen even if ... some indisputable miracle / proof were staring them in the face. (I put this in the same category as "God is not mocked.")

 

[razeontherock]

There is an old saying that goes: Men of war will worship a God of war, Men of peace will worship a God of peace.
I believe there is a great deal of truth to that statement. I believe much of the Old Testament was written by men of war. I believe what started me to become skeptical of the bible was when I read some of the stories written by what I believe to be men of war (the atrocities of Moses, Saul, etc.). As much as I tried to justify it, I couldn’t.
I also believe what was written about Jesus in the New Testament was written by men of peace. Even though I am an Atheist, I believe much of what was written by the men of peace mostly in the New Testament has much wisdom and is for the most part an excellent guide for living one’s life.

The bible a complete waste? Of course not! I just don’t perceive it as being perfect.

Ken

So there we go. My response:

1) It's ok to deal with the words of Jesus and not trifle with the rest of the Bible, especially as an unbeliever. You'll get some amazingly healthy influence that way, and I do think you would be better prepared to receive the underlying points of other belief systems if you were inclined to read their texts. I don't see anything wrong with the Jefferson Bible; Thomas Jefferson was a very bright and hard-working man who did a lot of great things. You might find it a great starting point?

2) Trying to wrap our head around the blood and gore of the OT is a challenge for anyone, so don't feel alone in that! And Moses was a highly trained commander of the most successful army in the world at that time, which means his tactics were utterly ruthless. So there's no guesswork involved; yes, those parts were written by men of war!

You can see me wrestle with this very thing, if you like I'll dig up a link. For an unbeliever though, it's not something I recommend.

3) What is the truth value being communicated to us in those sections? If you knew, you'd be amazed. Yet, before one can even "see the Kingdom," you must be born again. I think that comes first, while understanding these sections comes later.

 

[Ken-1122]

Dc potter (quote) “All you have to do is look at the diversity of animals , plants, insects , people , the ocean , mountains , and most of all take notice that good and evil exist to know God has made it all .”

(reply) That might work for you, but some of us have other explanations for these things.

(quote) “He wants us to have faith , and to seek Him diligently .

(reply) I can understand seeking him, but “faith” that one I never understood. Why is faith so important for something that is the truth? If you speak the truth, why not provide proof? Seems to me the only time faith is necessary is when you are trying to convince someone of a lie. But that’s another subject. Maybe I will start a new thread about faith.

(quote) “I would like God to do what you ask too , but I know He won't . It would compromise free will, and faith to say the least.”

(reply) How would clearing things up compromise free will?

(quote) “But personally I am sure if God did do what you ask Ken, 9 out of 10 atheists would make some excuse as to why it wasn't even God in the first place .”

(reply) Really! So you say if God did this 10% of all atheists would convert? Well if heaven rejoices over 1 lost soul, imagine what heaven will do if 10% of the millions of atheists converted? What’s he wait on???

Ken

 

[Ken-1122]

Thank you Ken, I understand you better now. Do you think the bible accurately portrays Jesus, or do you think it is fallacious?

Of all the claims of Jesus; I don't believe any of them are accurate.

K